Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds.
--
If I have a Shadow enslaved via Command Undead, and it kills a humanoid creature, thus turning it into a shadow under the control of the shadow who killed it, do I indirectly also have control of the new shadow, by telling my slave shadow to tell the new shadow what to do?
rule one for a necromancer if it spawns destroy it dont control it
Yes you do, but equally if you lose control of it you lose control of them too. This can be deadly, so make sure you have a tight leash on your Shadow.
Like Lady-J said, in most situations its better ot just not deal with this scenario. Either its powerful enough to be useful to you, and therefore powerful enough to not be completely under your control, or its too weak to really be worth.
There are exceptions.
most things that spawn will get a save vs you every day and they will get a nat 20 on a roll eventually and then you not only have your a very angery thing no longer under your control but a small angery army wanting to take off your head and shadows get a save every day
Im assuming he means the spell rather than the feat, since its vastly superior.
Lady-J wrote: most things that spawn will get a save vs you every day and they will get a nat 20 on a roll eventually and then you not only have your a very angery thing no longer under your control but a small angery army wanting to take off your head and shadows get a save every day But when on that day does it get it's next save? Like after the controller has gone to sleep? This sounds like a serious draw back...
Scrapper wrote: Lady-J wrote: most things that spawn will get a save vs you every day and they will get a nat 20 on a roll eventually and then you not only have your a very angery thing no longer under your control but a small angery army wanting to take off your head and shadows get a save every day But when on that day does it get it's next save? Like after the controller has gone to sleep? This sounds like a serious draw back... Thats up to the DM, but a fair DM would make it be exactly every 24 hours from when it was first enslaved.
That said, theres nothing stopping an intelligent undead from pretending it failed.
Baval wrote: Scrapper wrote: Lady-J wrote: most things that spawn will get a save vs you every day and they will get a nat 20 on a roll eventually and then you not only have your a very angery thing no longer under your control but a small angery army wanting to take off your head and shadows get a save every day But when on that day does it get it's next save? Like after the controller has gone to sleep? This sounds like a serious draw back... Thats up to the DM, but a fair DM would make it be exactly every 24 hours from when it was first enslaved.
That said, theres nothing stopping an intelligent undead from pretending it failed. eeehhhh shadows are smart enough to get a new save everyday but i dont think they are smart enough to fake a failed save
I agree, but smarter undead like Wraiths might
Baval wrote: Scrapper wrote: Lady-J wrote: most things that spawn will get a save vs you every day and they will get a nat 20 on a roll eventually and then you not only have your a very angery thing no longer under your control but a small angery army wanting to take off your head and shadows get a save every day But when on that day does it get it's next save? Like after the controller has gone to sleep? This sounds like a serious draw back... Thats up to the DM, but a fair DM would make it be exactly every 24 hours from when it was first enslaved.
That said, theres nothing stopping an intelligent undead from pretending it failed. You know when a target spell is saved against. There is nothing stating this changes just because they get more saves.
"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."
That depends on if you consider the ongoing attempt to break free a save against a targeted spell or not. The initial save certainly was, but the ongoing save isnt necessarily.
Also, im not really sure what an "effect spell" is lol
Thanks everyone for the thoughts and insight. How about this plan: I command the original shadow to command its spawn to go far far away when it's time for the daily saving throw, and come back after. Then maybe UMD a wand of Ill Omen on the shadow. And if it still succeeds on the save I just start spam channeling again until it fails to save again. Maybe I could also trap it under a ghost touch net until it is back under my command.
can you command it to fail its next saving throw?
.seth wrote: can you command it to fail its next saving throw? debatable whether it or the subsequent spell count as a hostile action and thus break your control
well i would be refreshing the command an hour earlier each day so i could order them to fail the save against it while they were still under control, with plenty of time left to think of an alternate plan if that failed. there was some wording on what charmed or commanded intelligent creatures consider an act they would never do, and someone argued that something like a vampire would never let itself be controlled at all, never refrain from eating me, etc etc, so that every check ever got the bonus as if you were ordering a paladin to commit rape and murder.
note that undead dont get a bonus against your commands, especially with the feat. even with the spell, it only lets them do an opposed charisma check to oppose your orders, and theyre treated as friendly to you so the vampire wont eat you thing doesnt apply.
That said, any hostile action towards them from you instantly breaks the spell, so attempting to recast it might be considered hostile.
The biggest problem is that the commanding shadow would likely be required at the frontline and it would be perceivably giving orders. Any halfway decent tactician would target it first and suddenly half of your army turns against you.
Lintecarka wrote: The biggest problem is that the commanding shadow would likely be required at the frontline and it would be perceivably giving orders. Any halfway decent tactician would target it first and suddenly half of your army turns against you. true, but the smart thing is to command the shadow to command its spawn to obey you, then hide it somewhere (portable holes work well)
that way you dont have that weakness.
into the aether wrote: Thanks everyone for the thoughts and insight. How about this plan: I command the original shadow to command its spawn to go far far away when it's time for the daily saving throw, and come back after. Then maybe UMD a wand of Ill Omen on the shadow. And if it still succeeds on the save I just start spam channeling again until it fails to save again. Maybe I could also trap it under a ghost touch net until it is back under my command. Ill Omen is mind affecting.
bestow curse however is not. curse that sucker with -3 to charisma based checks (this is slightly weaker than -6 to charisma so should be within the spells power), -6 to wisdom, and -4 to will saves. That should keep him relatively in line
Baval wrote: bestow curse however is not. curse that sucker with -3 to charisma based checks (this is slightly weaker than -6 to charisma so should be within the spells power), -6 to wisdom, and -4 to will saves. That should keep him relatively in line Something I never even thought of: can you use a touch attack on an incorporeal creature?
Isonaroc wrote: Baval wrote: bestow curse however is not. curse that sucker with -3 to charisma based checks (this is slightly weaker than -6 to charisma so should be within the spells power), -6 to wisdom, and -4 to will saves. That should keep him relatively in line Something I never even thought of: can you use a touch attack on an incorporeal creature? yes, but you would need a way to touch them. There are several spells that would allow it, such as spectral hand
otherwise 50% miss chance as per incorporeal vs magic.
Now to throw a wrench into the works.
I'm currently running a campaign where the PC's play as monstrous races. One of said PC's is playing a shadow. Having the ability to unlimited cohorts feels like it would cause problems rather quickly, so im looking or ideas to balance it.
For starters, I could require the Shadow to follow the same rules as a necromancer and have the spawn roll to break free at will. That or put a limit on the number of shadows the PC can keep in sway.
I do not want to remove the ability entirely, as the point of the game is to have fun, but I need to balance it.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Darrag Oathsbane wrote: Now to throw a wrench into the works.
I'm currently running a campaign where the PC's play as monstrous races. One of said PC's is playing a shadow. Having the ability to unlimited cohorts feels like it would cause problems rather quickly, so im looking or ideas to balance it.
For starters, I could require the Shadow to follow the same rules as a necromancer and have the spawn roll to break free at will. That or put a limit on the number of shadows the PC can keep in sway.
I do not want to remove the ability entirely, as the point of the game is to have fun, but I need to balance it.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
1. Don't let players be a shadow.
2. This deserves its own thread in the advice forum, not rules forum.
willuwontu wrote: Darrag Oathsbane wrote: Now to throw a wrench into the works.
I'm currently running a campaign where the PC's play as monstrous races. One of said PC's is playing a shadow. Having the ability to unlimited cohorts feels like it would cause problems rather quickly, so im looking or ideas to balance it.
For starters, I could require the Shadow to follow the same rules as a necromancer and have the spawn roll to break free at will. That or put a limit on the number of shadows the PC can keep in sway.
I do not want to remove the ability entirely, as the point of the game is to have fun, but I need to balance it.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
1. Don't let players be a shadow.
2. This deserves its own thread in the advice forum, not rules forum. Thanks, I thought it was a good idea to ask the question where others of like mind were already discussing it. Ill make a new post in advice.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
