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A friend and I where discussing fun uses of spells and came across this option. Around Summon Monster V and VII you start getting fairly large critters to summon, and we were struck with the idea of using one, in the vein of loony toons, as a living anvil.
So, in this situation, I'd like to know how folks would handle this if a player decided to give it a try and you had to figure out how to play it. Assume, for the sake of argument, that the player has reach spell applied and can summon the critter an appropriately long distance away. I've included a storied example below with the rules that are clear to me, and follow up with where variation might start coming in.
A dragon takes flight to harass the party from the air. In a bad spot, the conjurer starts summoning something. At the start of the next round, approximately 200ft above the dragon, *BAMF* there appears a gargantuan dire crocodile, which immediately begins falling. Per the falling objects table, we can determine the likely amount of damage to be caused (8d6). This forces a DC 25 fly check to stay aloft, though most things at this level won't have trouble making that.
My Questions:
-Would you require a secondary roll for the "attack"? My VC suggested a ranged touch attack to determine where to aim at those distances, as a falling object doesn't care much about armor. Alternatively a reflex save could be used, but at these sizes, you could really start picking apart where and when one is allowed, particularly if the target is not near the edges of the crocodile's footprint.
-Does the summon get a single attack as it falls? Technically doesn't have an action to take to ready a bite before the falling kicks in (damn the lack of loony toons logic!), but I'll include it to see how people play it out.
-If, by some miracle, the dragon fails its fly check and plummets (lets say...) 150 feet to the ground. It is still technically under the crocodile. Does it suffer both the fall damage and a second object impact?
-What if I did this same thing but dropped it on top of a party of NPCs?
While much of this is inside of existing rule sets, there is precedent for several interpretations on how to handle this for the portions not covered (for example, reflex save or range touch attack). I'm also accepting that PF doesn't have a full enough ruleset to account for things like mass as it just makes a rough approximation based on creature size, so I know it won't be a perfect representation of the real world... I'm just looking for the PF representation here. Outside of the obvious "Expect table variation" reply, I'd like to know how you would deal with it.
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
It doesn't work.
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It doesn't work.Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
CURSES! Nice catch on that, we missed it completely. So much for new and fun uses of celestial whales or potted petunias.
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What if I make a horizontal Wall of Force, and then dismiss it after summoning something on top of it?
What if I stone shape something into a block on a thin post that can't support it?
What if I summon something that flies, and then remove its flight?
1: Seems reasonable, if not a waste of spells.
2: I think Wall of Stone requires a solid supporting structure in order to work.3: It would seem that you have to summon flying critters on the ground too.
What if I make a horizontal Wall of Force, and then dismiss it after summoning something on top of it?
What if I stone shape something into a block on a thin post that can't support it?
What if I summon something that flies, and then remove its flight?
1 is fine. You are changing it after a successful summoning, much like casting Create Pit under the creature.
2 isn't summoning. Unless you want to summon something onto it? That doesn't work, because there isn't enough support.
3 works, but only once it starts flying. It can't be summoned into the air.
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However...
1. Create demiplane
2. Fill the demiplane with anvils
3. Gate to the demiplane of anvil storage, above the enemy's head
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4. Say, "Welcome to the Plane of Pain!"
Or...
1. Buy an enormous anvil
2. Shrink item
3. Toss the shrunk anvil to the ground and re-embiggen it
4. Reverse gravity--the flying creature will ignore this, but the anvil won't
4. Say, "Welcome to the Plane of Pain!"
Charisma's my dump stat, and I never take Perform (quip)...
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Make sure to label you anvils "ACME Iron Supplement".
If you're in a bargaining mood...
1. Buy an enormous anvil
2. Planar binding to call a strong flying creature who can plane shift
3. Hand them the anvil and payment
4. Give the pre-arranged signal at the appropriate moment to have them plane shift from their home to above your enemies, and drop the anvil
For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")
If you're in a bargaining mood...
1. Buy an enormous anvil
2. Planar binding to call a strong flying creature who can plane shift
3. Hand them the anvil and payment
4. Give the pre-arranged signal at the appropriate moment to have them plane shift from their home to above your enemies, and drop the anvil
you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination
Unless your anvil is 500miles wide, you'll probably miss.
Good catch. Have to be teleport without error and the outsider will just have to hang out till Anvil Time. That probably will raise the price somewhat...
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For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")
That is legitimately a good idea if you get to set up an ambush. Mix that with Shrink Item and you can make that portable.
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For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")
6. Remember to leave a sign with "OUCH!" painted on it next to the X, in case your victim forgets to bring their own.
That is legitimately a good idea if you get to set up an ambush. Mix that with Shrink Item and you can make that portable.For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")
Or create water and patience. 16,000 pounds of water has to do a fair bit of damage, suddenly falling on somebody...
What was that?
Oh, the sound of a million GMs screaming in adjudicatory anguish and then... silence...
Yup. My work is done here.
That is legitimately a good idea if you get to set up an ambush. Mix that with Shrink Item and you can make that portable.For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")Or create water and patience. 16,000 pounds of water has to do a fair bit of damage, suddenly falling on somebody...
What was that?
Oh, the sound of a million GMs screaming in adjudicatory anguish and then... silence...
Yup. My work is done here.
Thats only 2,000 gallons. About 2 5' squares worth. Not a whole lot.
That would also take a 20th level caster 5 minutes of casting to achieve. Or a level 1 caster 100 minutes.
That is legitimately a good idea if you get to set up an ambush. Mix that with Shrink Item and you can make that portable.For lower level casters...
1. Mark an X on the ground in chalk
2. Buy 16,000 pounds worth of anvils, less your weight
3. Rope trick directly above the X
4. Load the extradimensional space full of anvils
5. Wait till an enemy steps on the X and dismiss the spell ("Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.")Or create water and patience. 16,000 pounds of water has to do a fair bit of damage, suddenly falling on somebody...
What was that?
Oh, the sound of a million GMs screaming in adjudicatory anguish and then... silence...
Yup. My work is done here.
Thats only 2,000 gallons. About 2 5' squares worth. Not a whole lot.
That would also take a 20th level caster 5 minutes of casting to achieve. Or a level 1 caster 100 minutes.
If something is worth doing, it's doing right. And 16,000 pounds is a whole lot, when it falls on you all at once.
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I think this is my new favourite thread.
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If you're ok with a groaning, rotting anvil (an "unvil," if you will):
1. Animate dead to create a Gargantuan roc zombie (zombies keep their fly speed, if they had it in life)
2. Fly said unvil over your enemies
3. Undeath to death on the unvil
(Singing "Roc Zombie" is optional)
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Shrink Item on a wide, thin plane of iron or some other heavy metal. 40,000lbs translates into 10lbs, and at 2cuft/lvl of material at level 5, you can do a 1 inch thick plate of material, you can get about 5 squares worth of space. Even a half-inch sheet for approximately 9 squares is only a huge sized object. Every level gets you (approximately) one additional square of coverage at .5" thick, and that's only if you read 2cuft to mean volume. Weight-wise, this is pretty impressive though, but unfortunately I don't think there is object collision damage per weight anywhere in the books. Getting hit by a huge-sized block of wood and a huge-sized block of lead is apparently the same amount of damage (officially).
On the other hand, still image of a hallway over a solid surface also has potential! :D
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If you don't mind mixing science with your fantasy:
1. Shrink item on 16.5 pounds of uranium
2. Repeat step 1
3. Tie the two shrunken items together
4. Beguiling gift them to your enemy
5. Go a very, very, very long way away very quickly
6. Wait for the enemy to toss them away
Unfortunately, Shrink Item itself might cause critical density. Maybe this could be avoided with the cloth-like option...If you don't mind mixing science with your fantasy:
1. Shrink item on 16.5 pounds of uranium
2. Repeat step 1
3. Tie the two shrunken items together
4. Beguiling gift them to your enemy
5. Go a very, very, very long way away very quickly
6. Wait for the enemy to toss them away
I was assuming, but yeah, you're right. Probably best be explicit about that part in the instructions...
