Help with a throwing dagger build

[thelizardwizard]

Okay, so far this is what I have-

The Idea is a mobile dagger throwing fighter. Likely moving often due to stealth checks being part of move actions. So I need a decent Hit to offset the lower attacks/round.

It is gestalt,
Fighter 5/ Unrouge4/wizard(divination)1

Str 13, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10 stats wise,

His feats look like this.
1- skill focus (stealth), point blank shot, far shot, weapon finesse
2- Startoss Style (daggers), weapon focus(Rogue talent)
3- Startoss comet
4- Weapon specialization dagger, Distance thrower
5- Advanced weapon training (Trained Throw)

future plans involve-
level 6- grab hellcat stealth (make stealth checks even when observed at -10)
level 7- grab sniper rogue

possibly dip monk for more free feats (mobility/dodge for spring attack)

I can now make stealth checks to stay hidden, while pegging enemies with daggers, albeit at -10 (-20?) I also may look into grabbing dampen presence, so I can get the sneak up on those blindsense folk.

So far, his ranged and melee attacks do the same damage, now my question is, what could I change, and where, to better boost his throwing abilities. (The dagger throwing wasn't planned, its just how the character came out, so now I wanna make it work mechanic wise) We are running a pretty scary dungeon...

Would love some advice as I have NEVER built a throwing build before.

[Weables]

if you have weapon training, ricochet toss is spectacular for throwing builds. avoids the need for a million daggers or a blinkback belt.

[Claxon]

The main problem you run into is that even with Hellcat Stealth after the first attack stealth is broken and you wont get sneak attack on subsequent attacks.

You're honestly better off forgetting sneak attack and unchained rogue all together. I'm not sure what the wizard level is for either.

If the unchained rogue is only for dex to damage with daggers, you should know that the ability only works on melee attacks. And it also wouldn't work with trained throw, which specifies that you use dex to attack and strength for damage.

If you're willing to change things up a bit I would suggest going straight fighter and using Starry Grace with Starknives. Eventually you can retrain starry grace into advanced weapon training (feat) and pickup trained throw when the damage bonus it would give you would be larger than the damage bonus from dex to damage.

You're also missing very important feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Without Precise Shot most attacks you make will probably end up taking a -4 to hit because the enemy will be in melee.

Thrown weapon builds are basically archery builds minus Manyshot. With some additional feats to make things work.

[Chess Pwn]

throwing is VERY hard to pull off and requires you take a lot of specific feats and build a specific way to be okay at it. It's not for the light of heart. You've been warned. Look at Claxon's post for the actual advice part.

[Firebug]

The following has worked well for me in PFS. 20 point buy, no gestalt. But you can adapt it.

V for Vastatio:

Human Swashbuckler(Flying Blade) 10 / Monk(Far Strike) 2
Str 10
Con 14
Dex 15 +2 Human +3 level +4 belt = 24
Int 8
Wis 14 +2 headband = 16
Cha 14 +2 headband = 16
Traits: River Rat, Fencer
1)Swash 1: BAB: +1, Deeds, Panache, Finesse; H:WF(Dagger),F:PBS
2)Swash 2: BAB: +2, Charmed Life 3/day
3)Swash 3: BAB: +3, Deeds, Nimble +1; F:Startoss Style
4)Monk 1: BAB: +3, Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Flurry, Quickdraw, Unarmed Strike
5)Monk 2: BAB: +4, Bonus Feat(Precise Shot), Evasion; F:Startoss Comet
6)Swash 4: BAB: +5, Bonus Feat(Martial Focus:Dagger)
7)Swash 5: BAB: +6, Flying Blade Weapon Training 1; F:Ricochet Toss
8)Swash 6: BAB: +7, Charmed Life 4/day
9)Swash 7: BAB: +8, Deeds, Nimble +2; F:Startoss Shower
10)Swash 8: BAB: +9, Bonus Feat(Deadly Aim)
11)Swash 9: BAB: +10, Flying Blade Weapon Training 2; F:Deific Obedience(Pharasma)
12)Swash 10: BAB: +11, Charmed Life 5/day
Assuming a single +1 Fortuitous Adamantine Dagger
RoP +2, AoNA +2, +7 Dex, +3 Wis, +4 mage armor, +2 nimble = 30 AC in a courtiers outfit
And effectively another 4 AC vs melee from Disrupting Counter = 34 AC (you can throw in +4 Shield spell w/UMD if you have prep time, and a +1 Dusty Rose Cracked Ioun for 5k)
Fort: +3 Swash, +3 Monk, +2 Con = +8 (before items)
Ref: +7 Swash, +3 Monk +7 Dex = +17, Evasion
Will: +3 Swash, +3 Monk, +3 Wis = +9
5/day +3 immediate to a save
Assuming you would have a Cloak of some sort, probably +4/5, and a Pale Green Cracked Ioun for another +1, Dragonbone Divination Sticks for +3 luck to a random save for 6.4k, etc.
Attack: BAB +10, +7 dex, +2 Deific, +2 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Enhancement, +1 PBS, +1 haste, -3 Deadly Aim, -2 Flurry* = +20, +22 if using Startoss Style instead of flurrying a single target.
*Flurry is a -2, but counts your monk levels as full BAB so a net -1, but at this level it also does bump Deadly Aim to the -4 tier.
Disrupting Counter does not get the penalty for Deadly Aim (only applies to ranged attacks), does not get the penalty for flurry, does not get the bonus for PBS, and does get a +1 to hit from trait = +25, with an "iterative" 1/round at +20 if the first hit (fortuitous)
Damage: +10 Precise Strike, +6(or 8) Deadly Aim, +6 Startoss Feats, +2 Weapon Training, +1 enchantment, +1 River Rat, +1 PBS, +1 Martial Focus = 1d4+30 flurry, +28 Startoss Shower
Melee Adds +7 dex, loses Deadly aim, PBS = 28
(Another Pale Green Cracked Ioun stone for +1 to hit not included)
Crit 17-20, range increment 25'
Flurry w/haste = +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+30 (crit for 2d4+50, regain 1 panache)
Startoss = +22 vs 3-4 targets (depending on your reading of Startoss Shower vs Comet) for 1d4+28 damage (crit for 2d4+46, regain 1 panache). For when you need to use your move action to move.
However, the idea is to provoke all the time.
So if you have someone in your face, you will declare that you are going to flurry ranged attacks. Using Swordmaster's Flair if you need the reach.
The enemy decides to take his AoO.
Spend 1 Panache, Disrupting Counter for +25 1d4+28, Fortuitous +20 1d4+28 (crit 2d4+46, regain 1 panache)
Enemy Attacks vs "34 AC" if you hit with Disrupting Counter
First ranged attack: +20 1d4+30
Does enemy have Combat Reflexes?
If so: Spend another Panache and Disrupting Counter again +25 1d4+28; and enemy finishes its attack.
Finish the rest of Flurry, continuing to spend Panache to until the enemy stops attacking you back, you run out of panache (never use the last point or lose precise strike), or one of you dies.
Against an enemy without combat reflexes, but does take an AoO, we are looking at:
+25/+20 1d4+28; +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 1d4+30.
If the enemy does have combat reflexes add in another +25 1d4+28, and likely a 3rd or 4th if lucky on confirming crits and getting Panache back.
If you don't have someone in your face: Move until you do, then Startoss Shower to hit him and all his friends in a 25' increment chain to soften them up.
Level 13 is huge though, Signature Deed: Disrupting Counter for free, once per round.

[Statboy]

I would suggest going with a small character for the +4 stealth, goblin's are typically the best. Then be the Rogue:Knife Master archetype. Knife Master makes any Dagger or Knife sneak attack damage D8's. Then take the rogue talents/feat chains to get all your knife throws as sneak attacks. Theres 2 ways to get there, one is going through improved feint, ranged feint, wave strike; lets you feint as a swift with ranged and lasts for an entire round. Or take the rogue talents and teamwork feats to get flanking with ranged.

[CBDunkerson]

Since you are using Startoss you could get by with Returning (once per round) rather than Ricochet Toss. Gestalt helps alot, especially as it looks like you're doing Gestalt AND multi-class.

If you can do archetypes you might want to look at Dark Lurker Rogue (blind fighting) and Mobile Fighter (move then startoss or full attack at bonuses). Flying Blade Swashbuckler and Knife Master Rogue would be nice for precision damage, but with Startoss you only get that on the first target.

The switch to starknives for Starry Grace is also a good idea... can dump Str to boost other stats.

[thelizardwizard]

The rogue is for e number of things,

mainly, I am the trapfinder and skill monkey of the group, so I picked rogue, This way, I can help in melee as well (with the rogue's finesse)

the wizard level is fluff reason, and for-
+1 init, Prescience, (can be quite handy), safety net for surprise round, always get to act, and access to a few nifty cantrips and vanish.

with startoss, I will like=ly only be making one attack anyway, so hellcat stealth works well here, 1st round open with a ranged SA, stealth, hit them again (now their AC is -4 due to debilitating strike), rinse and repeat.

I see alot of good idea here though thanks for the input will defiantly be looking over some of this.

[Chess Pwn]

Debilitating strike turns off at the start of your turn if you only hit them with one sneak attack per round. Thus only your allies benefit from it but you never will.

[Firebug]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Since you are using Startoss you could get by with Returning (once per round) rather than Ricochet Toss.

Unless you want to keep the dagger in hand for AoOs... Or if you want to move after attacking. You know, to restealth? Returning just returned it to the square you threw it from at the start of your next turn. Not your current square. Returning is terrible.

CBDunkerson wrote:

Flying Blade Swashbuckler and Knife Master Rogue would be nice for precision damage, but with Startoss you only get that on the first target.

Um, precision from swashbuckler applies to all attacks, not just when you would be able to sneak attack. Basically every single attack and enemy unless they are directly immune to "precision".

CBDunkerson wrote:

The switch to starknives for Starry Grace is also a good idea... can dump Str to boost other stats.

If going swashbuckler, it's bad enough we are using a 19-20 threat weapon instead of an 18-20. Going straight 20 you may as well choose a different class completely. Like rogue.

[Torbyne]

If you just want a build to throw daggers, there have been a few threads about that lately and if you dig back there is usually a thread a every month or two on the topic. the best bets are daggers or star knives and as Firebug points out, Flying Blades are one of the better and easier to build chassis for it.

[Firebug]

If you are looking for gestalt you could do a lot worse than Medium from Occult Adventure in the other half of it. Tacking on champion medium to the swashbuckler/monk I posted earlier and you have all good saves, full bab, minor buff spells, and an extra +4 to hit and +6 damage at 12, plus pounce and an extra attack each round if you don't pounce.

Or you can channel trickster for extra skills, whatever you feel like being good at that day, plus 1d/ 3 levels sneak attack.
Or whatever spells you need (like remove curse, disease, identify, crafters fortune, etc) during downtime with hierophant and archmage.

[Kris Verschaeve]

Even though the ability is called "sneak stab", nothing in the Knife master archetype dictates that you need to melee to have D8 dice as sneak attack, you can throw daggers or kukris and starknives and get D8 as sneak attack dice type and of course you would get the same if you melee with them as well.

Same with deific obedience Pharasma: get a +2 profane or sacred bonus to attack rolls with daggers (melee or ranged not specified)

[Claxon]

I'm still strongly of the opinion that levels in rogue and wizard will be detrimental to this build. If you want to build a character that is good at throwing weapons, you will have to make sacrifices elsewhere.