
Flynngames |
Its been 10 years since I've GM. One of my players is running a kineticist. We both love it but her range touch spells are really becoming OP. She sits back and cast these spells that only need about a 9-12 to hit. She's pretty much doing all the damage for the group. Am I missing something or is this how kineticist are suppose to work?
Thanks

Captain Battletoad |

Ah well that's going to be a big part of the problem then, as giants are going to have terrible touch ACs. What's the rest of the party comp? If there's an evocation wizard or something similar then the kineticist is going to be getting outclassed within the next few levels, though not by much and only a limited number of times/day.

Faelyn |

Kineticists that focus on the energy blasts can do a very good amount of damage; however, their utility can prove to be a problem. Find ways to use Cover and Concealment to your advantage. Unfortunately going against giants means the Kineticist will be hitting most every attack as giants have terrible Touch AC.
Which element is your kineticist using? You could find ways to give your enemies energy resistance to help bring down the amount of damage the player is dishing out. I would not select enemies that are going to be immune to their energy type as that is rather jerkish move, because kineticists that focus on one element can be very powerful, but also weak against anything immune to their energy type.

PossibleCabbage |

While as a Con/Dex class the Kineticist is not as allergic to melee combat as many blasters, unless the Kineticist is using the extended range infusion they are always within charge range of a giant. If they are using extended blast, they're not using any other form infusions.
Forcing the kineticist to move, or use specific infusions because of tactics is going to limit their options which could help.
she has been very happy with "air" right now. Is there a resistance to that?
The energy blast for air is electricity based, and storm giants, for example, are simply immune to electricity.
I would hesitate to throw anything at the Kineticist that is simply immune to their combat suite until they get the opportunity to take a second element, but lots of things have electric resistance (in the game mechanical sense, in the physical sense everything has electric resistance; the impedance of free space is 119.9169832π Ohms.)

Flynngames |
While as a Con/Dex class the Kineticist is not as allergic to melee combat as many blasters, unless the Kineticist is using the extended range infusion they are always within charge range of a giant. If they are using extended blast, they're not using any other form infusions.
Forcing the kineticist to move, or use specific infusions because of tactics is going to limit their options which could help.
So she is using range infusion so that means she's restricted with other infusion? that would help also

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Combat-wise, will saves are the only real weakness of a kineticist.
By level 7, they should have a physical attack they can switch to against spell resistant enemies. They should also have kinetic blade + weapon finesse for when they would provoke. If they don't you can exploit this.
More ranged attacks against her is a terrible idea. Kineticists love nothing more than slogging blast attacks back and forth. And they shouldn't have to make any concentration check because--unless they are misguided--they are never using gather power for more than a move action.
Summary: Monsters that target will saves. I wouldn't get any more than the usual proportion of such monsters, however, as that is just metagaming. Also metagaming would be if all monsters knew that kineticists tend to have bad will saves.

QuidEst |

QuidEst wrote:Energy resistance and spell resistance both really hurt energy attacks. Closing in to melee quickly, such as with a charge, is a good idea. What is the rest of the party?Thats a great idea. unfortunately she has been very happy with "air" right now. Is there a resistance to that?
The air element (aerokinesis) comes with either an air blast (physical, uses full AC, does more damage, ignores spell resistance but not damage reduction) or an electric blast (energy, uses touch AC, does less damage, ignores damage reduction but not spell resistance, has to deal with resistance to electricity damage). At this level, they may have expanded into air, and be able to use one or the other, or take burn to combine them (but this hits full AC).
They have three things they can add: a form infusion, a substance infusion, and metakinesis.

Azten |

PossibleCabbage wrote:So she is using range infusion so that means she's restricted with other infusion? that would help alsoWhile as a Con/Dex class the Kineticist is not as allergic to melee combat as many blasters, unless the Kineticist is using the extended range infusion they are always within charge range of a giant. If they are using extended blast, they're not using any other form infusions.
Forcing the kineticist to move, or use specific infusions because of tactics is going to limit their options which could help.
You can only ever apply one form infusion and one substance infusion to a Kinetic Blast.

PossibleCabbage |

So she is using range infusion so that means she's restricted with other infusion? that would help also
Each blast can only use one form infusion and one substance infusion. You can't have a blast be both a whip and a cloud, and you can't have a blast push and deafen. You can have a pushing whip or a deafening cloud though.
The issue with air is that one of the better air utilities is "air's reach" which doubles the range of every air blast. Still, that's 60 feet without extended range and 240 feet with. A giant can charge 80 feet in a round, so they're still within charge range if they don't use extended range. You can probably prevent sniping at people who are 240 feet away just by having combat encounters take place in areas smaller than football fields.

Chess Pwn |

This is a similar issue to gunslingers. Touch AC is easy to hit and I'm a little surprised they still need to roll a 9 to hit.
A damaging spellcaster would be doing more damage then the kineticist.
But it makes sense that they are doing the most damage. All the other classes in the party are classes that take a lot of work to produce good damage, and need to get into melee range.

Captain Battletoad |

Flynngames wrote:So she is using range infusion so that means she's restricted with other infusion? that would help alsoEach blast can only use one form infusion and one substance infusion. You can't have a blast be both a whip and a cloud, and you can't have a blast push and deafen. You can have a pushing whip or a deafening cloud though.
The issue with air is that one of the better air utilities is "air's reach" which doubles the range of every air blast. Still, that's 60 feet without extended range and 240 feet with. A giant can charge 80 feet in a round, so they're still within charge range if they don't use extended range. You can probably prevent sniping at people who are 240 feet away just by having combat encounters take place in areas smaller than football fields.
The problem with charging is that if they're outside (likely if they're fighting giants) or anywhere with a large, tall space, the aerokineticist will most likely have picked up the wild talent that lets them fly by level 7.

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Am I missing something... she needs a 9-12 to hit. So she's missing ~50% of the time? Or do you mean that the monsters you're using have 9-12 touch AC?
As to damage... at level 7 that electric blast will be doing 4d6+half con, most likely not more than 4 more points of damage. That's an average of just 18 damage a round (assuming she only misses on a one). In contrast, a barbarian with a greataxe aught to be doing something like 1d12+9 (average 15.5) per hit, and that's before accounting for things like rage, power attack, haste, and other effects. Sure, he's hitting less often, but just with power attack he's doing just as much average damage as the kineticist while getting more attacks, which make up for the additional misses. And that still doesn't account for rage. (Note: Assuming 26 con for the kineticist and 22 str for the barbarian; this both exagerates the kineticist's damage and accounts for her being more MAD). A kineticist can do a bit more damage with her physical blasts, but will miss more often because it isn't touch anymore.
Another way to think about this, the kineticist's damage is the same as a rogues sneak attack (4d6). The Magus and a full arcane caster can also blow this number out of the water; fewer times per day, but honestly how often does that really come up? Almost never in my experience; if the arcane type is out of offensive spells then other people are probably running out of dailies too.
A few tips that can make him feel less OP: Offer lots of cover and terrain that breaks up line of site. Offer multiple weak types to suck up attacks from everyone. Pay attention to her action economy and make sure she's using burn correctly. See if the other people are using their builds effectively.

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Am I missing something... she needs a 9-12 to hit. So she's missing ~50% of the time? Or do you mean that the monsters you're using have 9-12 touch AC?
As to damage... at level 7 that electric blast will be doing 4d6+half con, most likely not more than 4 more points of damage. That's an average of just 18 damage a round (assuming she only misses on a one). In contrast, a barbarian with a greataxe aught to be doing something like 1d12+9 (average 15.5) per hit, and that's before accounting for things like rage, power attack, haste, and other effects. Sure, he's hitting less often, but just with power attack he's doing just as much average damage as the kineticist while getting more attacks, which make up for the additional misses. And that still doesn't account for rage. (Note: Assuming 26 con for the kineticist and 22 str for the barbarian; this both exagerates the kineticist's damage and accounts for her being more MAD). A kineticist can do a bit more damage with her physical blasts, but will miss more often because it isn't touch anymore.
Another way to think about this, the kineticist's damage is the same as a rogues sneak attack (4d6). The Magus and a full arcane caster can also blow this number out of the water; fewer times per day, but honestly how often does that really come up? Almost never in my experience; if the arcane type is out of offensive spells then other people are probably running out of dailies too.
A few tips that can make him feel less OP: Offer lots of cover and terrain that breaks up line of site. Offer multiple weak types to suck up attacks from everyone. Pay attention to her action economy and make sure she's using burn correctly. See if the other people are using their builds effectively.
A touch AC targetting character needing a 9 is rather silly. My fire kineticist needed not to get a 1 most of the time.
I have to say that it sounds like basically everyone (including the kineticist) is not very well optimized. I guess I would encourage the GM to tell players to look at guides and give them a free respec. Maybe when everyone has an actual viable character, you can look at things then and see how everything is balanced.