Is there a new APL / Pregen Rule?


Pathfinder Society

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I was wondering if there is a new rule concerning the Average Party Level and being forced to play a pregen?

Essentially, I attended a level 3 to 7 scenario earlier tonight with my level 7 character. When I arrived, another player and myself were told that due to the APL we would be in low tier. We said that was fine, but then we were told that due to a new rule that characters must be within one level of the subtler or else must play a different character or a pregen that could be appied to our higher level character.

I just would like clarification whether this is correct.

Thanks!

5/5 5/55/55/5

nope , just that you can't play the level 7 pregen in the 3-4. A real character is fine.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

They appeared to be confused about the restriction against playing a character that is more than one subtier away from the played subtier. In a 1-7, your 7th level character would be ineligible to play 1-2, but legal for 3-4. You can certainly be more than one level removed from the range of the subtier.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I have been refused, multiple times, from playing a high level character when the rest of the party is low level.

Some GMs are just like that. Yours could be the same.

The Exchange 1/5

Meh I too thought that this rule meant you couldn't play across tiers like that, I thought it meant you could play the out of tier level etc. I still do not think a level 1 should be allowed to play in a 4-5 scenario however.

of course recently I was shown that a highly optimized level 2 can play better than poorly prepared lvl 4-5 people in a 4/5 game. But I will blow up the forums if this ever gets someone killed at a table I play at.

3/5

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Nefreet wrote:

I have been refused, multiple times, from playing a high level character when the rest of the party is low level.

Some GMs are just like that. Yours could be the same.

I prefer not to play with someone that insists on playing high level on a low tier.

I have walked away from tables because people wanted to do this. If someone wants to bring a level 5 with a bunch of 1s wrecks the game for me. Although it is perfectly legal option.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I don't prefer to play high level characters in low tier games. The out of tier gold is a real setback, and you lose access to the high tier items. Plus, as you said, it's generally not fun for the other players, and there's no challenge for you.

The exception is when I bring a character to play specifically in that scenario.

Like, I have a 9th level Sylph Aerokineticist. If I show up to the Plane of Air scenario (tier 5-9), and everyone else is level 5, some GMs might turn me away based solely on my level, despite my desire to play that character.

If it's a public game, they're technically not supposed to turn you away, but GMs likewise don't have to run a game for anyone if they don't want to, so they still have the last word regardless. In our area, it used to cause a lot of drama. Now I'll just walk away to play another day.

3/5

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Nefreet wrote:

I don't prefer to play high level characters in low tier games. The out of tier gold is a real setback, and you lose access to the high tier items. Plus, as you said, it's generally not fun for the other players, and there's no challenge for you.

The exception is when I bring a character to play specifically in that scenario.

Like, I have a 9th level Sylph Aerokineticist. If I show up to the Plane of Air scenario (tier 5-9), and everyone else is level 5, some GMs might turn me away based solely on my level, despite my desire to play that character.

If it's a public game, they're technically not supposed to turn you away, but GMs likewise don't have to run a game for anyone if they don't want to, so they still have the last word regardless. In our area, it used to cause a lot of drama. Now I'll just walk away to play another day.

There are reasons you may want to. I know I have recruited friends to bring to a certain tier so I can play some scenarios for certain characters.

I have DMed scenarios where all low levels and a guy brings a max level to show off. I tell them they are allowed to, but it is a jerk move. Also I warn them if they start wrecking the game I will mediate. The people that tend to do this do not know how to play their characters well or are not skilled at making them. I remember running traitors lodge for a bunch of 3s and 4s. Someone insists on bringing a 7 Barbarian, and brags about their character. I warn them privately. Then the fight breaks out, they rage and strikes for 7 damage and immediately stopped worrying. They were later eaten.

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only times it's been an issue at mustering, it's turned out the person at 'higher level' has been the 'support' of the party, (whether wizard or fighter, etc) and they have not 'outshone' the rest of the party.

What's throwing my mind is 'what if someone NEEDS the scenario and that's the only time it's running for the *next few years* in a given area'?

3/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The only times it's been an issue at mustering, it's turned out the person at 'higher level' has been the 'support' of the party, (whether wizard or fighter, etc) and they have not 'outshone' the rest of the party.

What's throwing my mind is 'what if someone NEEDS the scenario and that's the only time it's running for the *next few years* in a given area'?

As I said in the previous post "There are reasons you may want to."

I just do not enjoy tagging along an adventure where a high level PC kills everything and I get to watch. Since that may be the one time I get to play it I will step aside and let you play. Even if i need to play it and it will not be up for years.

You have also noted in previous threads if someone does this to you, you would be "REALLY STEAMED".

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Finlanderboy wrote:


As I said in the previous post "There are reasons you may want to."

I just do not enjoy tagging along an adventure where a high level PC kills everything and I get to watch. Since that may be the one time I get to play it I will step aside and let you play. Even if i need to play it and it will not be up for years.

You have also noted in previous threads if someone does this to you, you would be "REALLY STEAMED".

If the party in question is steamrolling everything and trivializing the scenario, yes.

If the party in question is living the up to the ideals of the Society and essentially letting 'everyone else shine' there is no coal to the fire?

3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Finlanderboy wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The only times it's been an issue at mustering, it's turned out the person at 'higher level' has been the 'support' of the party, (whether wizard or fighter, etc) and they have not 'outshone' the rest of the party.

What's throwing my mind is 'what if someone NEEDS the scenario and that's the only time it's running for the *next few years* in a given area'?

As I said in the previous post "There are reasons you may want to."

I just do not enjoy tagging along an adventure where a high level PC kills everything and I get to watch. Since that may be the one time I get to play it I will step aside and let you play. Even if i need to play it and it will not be up for years.

You have also noted in previous threads if someone does this to you, you would be "REALLY STEAMED".

The problem with your argument is that there are a large number of scenarios that will TPK an entire party if of in tier characters because the encounters scale ridiculously poorly.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Where is the rule on out of tier pregen use?

From the Season 8 guide it says:

"Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on the average party level at the table, as outlined below."

It should say "pregens can only be used in subtier or must be used in subtier".

I'm just looking for some clarification.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I'll strongly discourage high tier characters from playing in the low tier (I sometimes all but beg :-)) but I won't disallow it. The person has a right to play their character.

But the wrong high tier character can totally ruin it for everybody else by just completely overpowering the adventure.

But then, often the wrong IN TIER character can totally ruin it for everybody else by just completely overpowering the adventure :-( :-(

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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Borrowgust Brick wrote:


It should say "pregens can only be used in subtier or must be used in subtier".

Can't be quite that simple a rule. Othewise, no pregens in a 5-9 or High subtier in a 7-11 adventure.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paul Jackson wrote:
Borrowgust Brick wrote:


It should say "pregens can only be used in subtier or must be used in subtier".

Can't be quite that simple a rule. Othewise, no pregens in a 5-9 or High subtier in a 7-11 adventure.

If THIS were true/is true, then my Bard wouldn't be L10 right now, but stuck at L6.

Almost two levels of 5-9 high and 7-11 on a L7 pregen 'held' credit. Wouldn't've been able to qualify for other 'higher tier stuff played without that, which would have really limited my play options...

Sovereign Court 4/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:
Borrowgust Brick wrote:


It should say "pregens can only be used in subtier or must be used in subtier".

Can't be quite that simple a rule. Othewise, no pregens in a 5-9 or High subtier in a 7-11 adventure.

If THIS were true/is true, then my Bard wouldn't be L10 right now, but stuck at L6.

Almost two levels of 5-9 high and 7-11 on a L7 pregen 'held' credit. Wouldn't've been able to qualify for other 'higher tier stuff played without that, which would have really limited my play options...

OK Awesome you answered my question the pregens can be used outside of subtier.

5/5 5/55/55/5

here we go...

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below.

Sovereign Court 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

here we go...

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below.

According to what I’m reading on page 10 of the Season 8 guide, for 3 1st level PCs and a 4th level pregen the APL is 1.75. And if they are playing a tier 1-5 scenario they play the subtier 1-2. Then there’s no restriction on playing the 4th level pregen versus playing the 1st level pregen.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Borrowgust Brick wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

here we go...

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below.

According to what I’m reading on page 10 of the Season 8 guide, for 3 1st level PCs and a 4th level pregen the APL is 1.75. And if they are playing a tier 1-5 scenario they play the subtier 1-2. Then there’s no restriction on playing the 4th level pregen versus playing the 1st level pregen.

I have absolutely no idea how you're getting that answer when i just quoted the section that says to use the level 1 pregen if you can.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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You decide level of Pregen after calculating APL of the other characters.

So if you have 3 1st-level PCs, the APL is 1, and you use a Level 1 Pregen.

Sovereign Court 4/5

It sounds like its restricted by APL versus subtier not level of PC or pregen. And I'm saying that because it states "they may be adjusted up or down".

There needs to be a clear distinction for pregen level versus subtier without including PCs in the text.

I went to a restricted stance earlier but was told that could not be. And in looking at the wording "should be" and "may be" leaves it open to choose. And as Paul stated for a tier 7-11 playing subtier 10-11 you would use a 7th level pregen. So the restriction versus APL dose not fit.

Is there a better description, maybe on the forum?

And when referencing source material please list the book and page number.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Borrowgust Brick wrote:
And in looking at the wording "should be" and "may be" leaves it open to choose.

No. It does not.

Please do not try to rules lawyer to a particular position. Let the rules speak for themselves and guide you where they're going, not the other way around. The system in general is very RAI dependant and the guide is written in even less technical language than the rules.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

Borrowgust Brick,

You have asked for a book and page number in reference to rules regarding use of pregenerated characters in scenarios.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild; Tiers and Subtiers; last paragraph, pg 10 wrote:

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters

should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below. For
scenarios with more than two subtiers, characters must be
in adjacent subtiers to play together.

So in an ideal situation using a 1-5 Scenario as an example:

Subtier 1-2 - Will use a Level 1 Pregen
Subtier 4-5 - Will use a Level 4 Pregen

Now if I am in a situation where a pregen is required, I will check the APL with both a 1st level and a 4th level pregen. If the APL remains within the 1-2 subtier regardless of which pregen is used, I will give the table the option. If the subtier is in 4-5, I would obviously bring in a level 4. So you do have the option but ideally the level of the pregen used should be in the subtier being played. In scenarios with 3 subtiers (1-2, 3-4, 6-7), this has to be watched closely as no player can have a character in a level more than one subtier away from the subtier being played in a 1-7 scenario.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Preston Hudson wrote:

Borrowgust Brick,

You have asked for a book and page number in reference to rules regarding use of pregenerated characters in scenarios.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild; Tiers and Subtiers; last paragraph, pg 10 wrote:

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters

should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below. For
scenarios with more than two subtiers, characters must be
in adjacent subtiers to play together.

So in an ideal situation using a 1-5 Scenario as an example:

Subtier 1-2 - Will use a Level 1 Pregen
Subtier 4-5 - Will use a Level 4 Pregen

Now if I am in a situation where a pregen is required, I will check the APL with both a 1st level and a 4th level pregen. If the APL remains within the 1-2 subtier regardless of which pregen is used, I will give the table the option. If the subtier is in 4-5, I would obviously bring in a level 4. So you do have the option but ideally the level of the pregen used should be in the subtier being played. In scenarios with 3 subtiers (1-2, 3-4, 6-7), this has to be watched closely as no player can have a character in a level more than one subtier away from the subtier being played in a 1-7 scenario.

So if I got this right, if the subtier 1-2 APL remains within the subtier with either a 1st level pregen or 4th level pregen you give them the option to play either?

The Exchange 5/5

Borrowgust Brick wrote:
Preston Hudson wrote:

Borrowgust Brick,

You have asked for a book and page number in reference to rules regarding use of pregenerated characters in scenarios.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild; Tiers and Subtiers; last paragraph, pg 10 wrote:

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters

should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below. For
scenarios with more than two subtiers, characters must be
in adjacent subtiers to play together.

So in an ideal situation using a 1-5 Scenario as an example:

Subtier 1-2 - Will use a Level 1 Pregen
Subtier 4-5 - Will use a Level 4 Pregen

Now if I am in a situation where a pregen is required, I will check the APL with both a 1st level and a 4th level pregen. If the APL remains within the 1-2 subtier regardless of which pregen is used, I will give the table the option. If the subtier is in 4-5, I would obviously bring in a level 4. So you do have the option but ideally the level of the pregen used should be in the subtier being played. In scenarios with 3 subtiers (1-2, 3-4, 6-7), this has to be watched closely as no player can have a character in a level more than one subtier away from the subtier being played in a 1-7 scenario.

So if I got this right, if the subtier 1-2 APL remains within the subtier with either a 1st level pregen or 4th level pregen you give them the option to play either?

so, if I were the judge at the table, would I give someone the option of playing a Pregen 2 or 4 times the level of everyone else at the table? A Pregen potentially the level of EVERYONE else at the table COMBINED? I don't know. Maybe. I've done some pretty weird things in the past. Depends on the players, the scenario, the Pregen... but it would be much less likely than giving someone the Pregen that matches the Sub-Tier everyone else is in. You know, so he fits into the rest of the group.

Why would I want to drop a 4th level Pregen on someone (most likely a beginner) when the other 3 players at the table are 1st level PCs?

Oh, and before someone asks, yeah, I guess it would be legal to drop someone into a Sub-Tier 3-4 game with a 1st level Pregen when the other 3 players are playing 5th level guys... but I don't think that would be very fair to the players (all 4of them), do you?

The Exchange 5/5

I am more concerned with the following scenario (which I have seen more than once...)

Four players with PC levels 2, 3, 3, 4. So that makes them a solid APL 3. The players talk it over and decide to play down (say the 4th level is a Bard with no combat skills). Now we have a walk up that gets dropped in with a Pregen... 1st level right? Woops! that pushes the Sub-Tier to "Play the higher Sub-Tier with the 4 player adjustment". Yeah - I've had this happen more than once.

Now, the "drop-in" get's handed a 4th level Pregen - which doesn't change the Sub-tier a bit. Then the 2nd level player decides that he is not comfortable playing UP, so he walks and heads home (really had this happen more than one). Re-figure the sub-tier and we have... APL 3 with the players choice - and they decide to play the lower sub-tier... with PC levels 3, 3, 4, 4 so everyone is getting out of tier gold.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I wanted to clarify my original question a bit:

1. It was a level 3-7 Scenario. Myself and another player had level 6/7 characters. Everyone else was using either level 4 characters, or level 4 pregens because they didn't have a character in that level range.

2. Because the APL was less than 5, myself and one other player were told that if we wanted to apply credit to our level 6/7 characters for that scenario, we had to play the level 4 pregens because our characters were more than one level outside the subtier (3-4).

3. When pointed out that this contradicts several parts of the Roleplaying guild guide, specifically that:

a) You are allowed to bring any legal character to a scenario provided it is within the legal levels (level 6/7 in a 3-7 scenario). The exception to this rule is in adventure with more than two sub-tiers. You can only play a character if they are in adjacent sub-tiers. (For example in a 1-7 scenario a 5-6 sub-tier character cannot play where the rest of the party is in sub-tier 1-2. But could play where the rest of the party is in sub-tier 3-4)

b) You cannot apply credit for using a pregen to a character that was of a legal level to play the scenario with certain exceptions (i.e. any adventure that all are pregens such as Serpent's Rise/Ire, or the We Be Goblins series).

It was said that this was a new rule being put into effect via the Officer Forums. I just need to know if this rule is in effect, or if it's just a proposed rule that may go into effect next season.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

It is not a rule. Even if it WAS being discussed on the VO forums, your GM would be in violation of their NDA if they tried using it.

The Exchange 5/5

Mercurywolf wrote:

I wanted to clarify my original question a bit:

1. It was a level 3-7 Scenario. Myself and another player had level 6/7 characters. Everyone else was using either level 4 characters, or level 4 pregens because they didn't have a character in that level range.

2. Because the APL was less than 5, myself and one other player were told that if we wanted to apply credit to our level 6/7 characters for that scenario, we had to play the level 4 pregens because our characters were more than one level outside the subtier (3-4).

3. When pointed out that this contradicts several parts of the Roleplaying guild guide, specifically that:

a) You are allowed to bring any legal character to a scenario provided it is within the legal levels (level 6/7 in a 3-7 scenario). The exception to this rule is in adventure with more than two sub-tiers. You can only play a character if they are in adjacent sub-tiers. (For example in a 1-7 scenario a 5-6 sub-tier character cannot play where the rest of the party is in sub-tier 1-2. But could play where the rest of the party is in sub-tier 3-4)

b) You cannot apply credit for using a pregen to a character that was of a legal level to play the scenario with certain exceptions (i.e. any adventure that all are pregens such as Serpent's Rise/Ire, or the We Be Goblins series).

It was said that this was a new rule being put into effect via the Officer Forums. I just need to know if this rule is in effect, or if it's just a proposed rule that may go into effect next season.

sorry Wolf.

There is no "new rule" currently in effect that would address this (as of 11/14/16).

IF there is conversation on the "Officer Forums", it would not apply. We do not have "secret rules" in PFS.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Borrowgust Brick wrote:


So if I got this right, if the subtier 1-2 APL remains within the subtier with either a 1st level pregen or 4th level pregen you give them the option to play either?

NO

How are you getting that?

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible

Is it possible to use a level 1 pregen in subtier in a 1-2? Absolutely. So you use that pregen

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

There are some strange situations that can come up that the quote from the guide:

Within each tier, PCs or pregenerated characters
should be used in the subtier in which they fall whenever
possible, but they may be adjusted up or down, based on
the average party level at the table, as outlined below.

Actually applies. If you are running in 1-2 Tier, use the level 1 Pregen, in the 3-4, 4-5, 2-4 use the level 4 pregen.

Corner cases can come up, for example suppose you are running a special with the 10 - 11 tier with 3 players. You have a 4th player without a character in tier. In that case a level 7 pregen might be brought in to make it a legal table.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Society Subscriber
nosig wrote:

sorry Wolf.

There is no "new rule" currently in effect that would address this (as of 11/14/16).

IF there is conversation on the "Officer Forums", it would not apply. We do not have "secret rules" in PFS.

Actually, you've made me happy, because the whole thing didn't make any sense to me.

Thanks for helping me out on this!

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Louis Manko Levite wrote:


Corner cases can come up, for example suppose you are running a special with the 10 - 11 tier with 3 players. You have a 4th player without a character in tier. In that case a level 7 pregen might be brought in to make it a legal table.

That would be a truly *frightening* scenario. And a lot more plausible the more I think about it...

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

It almost happened Sunday when I oversaw The Cosmic Captive. Our seventh GM used a replay to bring an appropriate character to the tier for a 4 player table. (Note: They wisely did not fight the epic challenges.)

Liberty's Edge 1/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
It almost happened Sunday when I oversaw The Cosmic Captive. Our seventh GM used a replay to bring an appropriate character to the tier for a 4 player table. (Note: They wisely did not fight the epic challenges.)

"STILL don't know how we managed to walk away from that largely intact."

Talk about a 'Welcome to the NEXT LEVEL! SEGA!' scenario...

Dark Archive 4/5

"By the POWER OF THE EFREETI, of course!"

Liberty's Edge 1/5 5/5

Kane Elish wrote:
"By the POWER OF THE EFREETI, of course!"

"That had to be part of it. With some rocking vocals and a good back-beat."

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