I'm working on a 1st level character build for a friend's game, with the intent of being an assassin (likely taking levels in the prestige class). Unchained Rogue is not an option, but Core Rogue is, as is the Slayer class.
On one hand, the Slayer will be a bit more likely to hit, but Studied Target is a fairly small bonus that seems more appropriate for longer engagements with an enemy. The Rogue will have a crappier BAB, but sneak attack damage progression is much faster, 2 extra skill points per level, and with an archetype like the Knife Master, I could be looking at d8 sneak attack damage. Seeing as we're headed into Galt and will likely need to keep a low profile, the larger weapons and heavier armor that are available to the Slayer will be useless to me.
Are there any benefits to Slayer that I'm missing here? Does the d10 hit die offer that much over the d10?
There is also the serial killer archetype for the vigilante. The evil requirement may or may not be a problem however.
The big advantage the slayer has is being able to take on level appropriate challenges a lot better. Sure the rouge is better at killing helpless weak targets, but has some serious challenges dealing with tougher opponents. If you want to murder the merchant who is a 6th level expert rouge can easily do that.
Studied target gives you a scaling bonus to hit and damage. Add this to the higher BAB and the slayer is going to hit a lot more often than the rouge. The higher BAB also allows you to qualify for, and better use feats like power attack. The better weapon selection also allows you to use two handed weapons to take advantage of power attack and a higher STR. A slayer with a good STR wielding a falchion is going to take down a target a lot faster than a rogue with a dagger.
If you go high enough level a slayer also gets Quarry. The extra +2 to hit is nice but what really makes this deadly is the automatic conformation of critical hits. A 14th level slayer using a falchion and power attack gets 4d6 damage from sneak attack compared to the 7d8 of the knife master. That works out to be about 12 more points of damage. When you factor in power attack the damage works out to be the same and the slayer is still has a +5 better chance to hit even after power attack. That also does not include the slayer getting 1.5 STR to damage or having a better chance to critical hit, or the fact that if he does critical it is automatically confirmed and has a lot of static damage that is multiplied.
Perhaps it would help if I explained precisely why two-handed weapons and medium armor would be useless in the campaign:
We're supposed to be sneaking into an extremely hostile, paranoid Galt. My goal is to look like a common Galtian, so armor that can be concealed under clothing would be best, as would weapons that can be hidden from view. Heavy Armor in a country of starving, paranoid peasants who can turn into a ravening mob at a moment's notice is just asking for trouble.
Also, building for 2h increases MAD for the build anyway, since DEX and INT are already heavily weighted for anyone going for Death Attack/Assassinate.
A Full Blooded Assassin will never have a higher Death Attack DC then a Slayer with Assassinate once the Slayer is a high enough level to actually pick it up. The highest DC a regular Assassin will have is DC 20+Int at level 15. The Slayer at the same level will have 10 +7 from 1/2 level +4 for Studied Target at 15, so DC 21 +Int.
Huh, you're right. I never actually did the math here. Feels totally cheap that the assassin isn't even the best at his own core ability.
A Full Blooded Assassin will never have a higher Death Attack DC then a Slayer with Assassinate once the Slayer is a high enough level to actually pick it up. The highest DC a regular Assassin will have is DC 20+Int at level 15. The Slayer at the same level will have 10 +7 from 1/2 level +4 for Studied Target at 15, so DC 21 +Int.Huh, you're right. I never actually did the math here. Feels totally cheap that the assassin isn't even the best at his own core ability.
The Advanced Class book classes are typically better than core classes. If I could get an Unchained Rogue into this game, I definitely would because the Core Rogue is under-powered in comparison to other classes.
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Perhaps it would help if I explained precisely why two-handed weapons and medium armor would be useless in the campaign:
We're supposed to be sneaking into an extremely hostile, paranoid Galt. My goal is to look like a common Galtian, so armor that can be concealed under clothing would be best, as would weapons that can be hidden from view. Heavy Armor in a country of starving, paranoid peasants who can turn into a ravening mob at a moment's notice is just asking for trouble.
Also, building for 2h increases MAD for the build anyway, since DEX and INT are already heavily weighted for anyone going for Death Attack/Assassinate.
A Dex-based Slayer is still better than a Core Rogue/Assassin in almost every way, and avoids these problems. Indeed, Dex-based Slayers are solid in general.
A Dex-based Slayer is still better than a Core Rogue/Assassin in almost every way, and avoids these problems. Indeed, Dex-based Slayers are solid in general.Perhaps it would help if I explained precisely why two-handed weapons and medium armor would be useless in the campaign:
We're supposed to be sneaking into an extremely hostile, paranoid Galt. My goal is to look like a common Galtian, so armor that can be concealed under clothing would be best, as would weapons that can be hidden from view. Heavy Armor in a country of starving, paranoid peasants who can turn into a ravening mob at a moment's notice is just asking for trouble.
Also, building for 2h increases MAD for the build anyway, since DEX and INT are already heavily weighted for anyone going for Death Attack/Assassinate.
A dex-based Slayer won't be able to lean on Power Attack and a larger weapon die, though. Wouldn't it end up with less damage than the Core Rogue, just based on how much worse the sneak attack progression is on a Slayer, and the relatively low damage from Studied Target? Certainly, the Slayer would have better odds of hitting, but the Rogue would hit harder, and surely by late-game one can easily set up flanks/flat-footed attacks using Invisibility/Greater Invis, Darkness, and other spells?
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A dex-based Slayer won't be able to lean on Power Attack and a larger weapon die, though. Wouldn't it end up with less damage than the Core Rogue, just based on how much worse the sneak attack progression is on a Slayer, and the relatively low damage from Studied Target? Certainly, the Slayer would have better odds of hitting, but the Rogue would hit harder, and surely by late-game one can easily set up flanks/flat-footed attacks using Invisibility/Greater Invis, Darkness, and other spells?
Eh. The Rogue doesn't hit much harder until real late in the game, and by then the to-hit advantage on the Slayer is enormous. And if using high-crit weapons, the Slayer does even better (since his Studied Target damage doubles on a crit while Sneak Attack doesn't).
A Slayer can grab Accomplished Sneak Attacker and have 2d6 Sneak Attack at 3rd, 3d6 at 6th, 4d6 at 9th, 5d6 at 12th, and 6d6 at 15th.
The Rogue is never more than 2d6 ahead. Ever. And the Slayer has Studied Target and Full BAB.
At 3rd, the Sneak Attacks are actually equal, so the Slayer is just + to hit ahead (or +2 to hit, +1 damage with Studied Target).
At 7th, the Rogue is 1d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +4 to hit, +2 damage (so he trades -1.5 damage for +4 to hit), and has an extra attack.
At 11th, the Rogue is 2d6 ahead in Sneak Attack, but the Slayer is +6 to-hit and +3 damage ahead (so he trades -4 damage for +6 to hit), and he has another attack again.
At 15th the Rogue is still 2d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +7 to hit and +4 damage (meaning he traded -3 damage for +7 to-hit).
A dex-based Slayer won't be able to lean on Power Attack and a larger weapon die, though. Wouldn't it end up with less damage than the Core Rogue, just based on how much worse the sneak attack progression is on a Slayer, and the relatively low damage from Studied Target? Certainly, the Slayer would have better odds of hitting, but the Rogue would hit harder, and surely by late-game one can easily set up flanks/flat-footed attacks using Invisibility/Greater Invis, Darkness, and other spells?A Dex-based Slayer is still better than a Core Rogue/Assassin in almost every way, and avoids these problems. Indeed, Dex-based Slayers are solid in general.Perhaps it would help if I explained precisely why two-handed weapons and medium armor would be useless in the campaign:
We're supposed to be sneaking into an extremely hostile, paranoid Galt. My goal is to look like a common Galtian, so armor that can be concealed under clothing would be best, as would weapons that can be hidden from view. Heavy Armor in a country of starving, paranoid peasants who can turn into a ravening mob at a moment's notice is just asking for trouble.
Also, building for 2h increases MAD for the build anyway, since DEX and INT are already heavily weighted for anyone going for Death Attack/Assassinate.
There's actually a Slayer archetype, the Stygian Slayer, that gets invisibility as a spell-like ability and can use a bunch of sneaky-type spells with items without bothering with Use Magic Device checks.
Go Piranha.... Oh, ninja'd.
Well, if it helps at all for thematic purposes, if I remember correctly the inspiration for the Slayer was the assassins such as Altair, Ezio, Connor, etc from Assassin's Creed as a single class.
And as far as weapon and armor proficiencies go, you certainly aren't limited to big armor / bigger weapons, they're just an extra option you have. Nothing stops you from going light weapons and light armor slayer.
Slayer also gets easier entry into using their Dex modifier for Feint, and access to a few more combat feats through combat styles which lessens the feat burden from going down the Feint chain. It is a really solid way of getting your sneak attacks at will.
Otherwise... would your GM let you play a Ninja? Vanish is really nice for controlled Sneak Attacks, and Ki can also be spent for extra attacks.
A dex-based Slayer won't be able to lean on Power Attack and a larger weapon die, though. Wouldn't it end up with less damage than the Core Rogue, just based on how much worse the sneak attack progression is on a Slayer, and the relatively low damage from Studied Target? Certainly, the Slayer would have better odds of hitting, but the Rogue would hit harder, and surely by late-game one can easily set up flanks/flat-footed attacks using Invisibility/Greater Invis, Darkness, and other spells?Eh. The Rogue doesn't hit much harder until real late in the game, and by then the to-hit advantage on the Slayer is enormous. And if using high-crit weapons, the Slayer does even better (since his Studied Target damage doubles on a crit while Sneak Attack doesn't).
A Slayer can grab Accomplished Sneak Attacker and have 2d6 Sneak Attack at 3rd, 3d6 at 6th, 4d6 at 9th, 5d6 at 12th, and 6d6 at 15th.
The Rogue is never more than 2d6 ahead. Ever. And the Slayer has Studied Target and Full BAB.
At 3rd, the Sneak Attacks are actually equal, so the Slayer is just + to hit ahead (or +2 to hit, +1 damage with Studied Target).
At 7th, the Rogue is 1d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +4 to hit, +2 damage (so he trades -1.5 damage for +4 to hit), and has an extra attack.
At 11th, the Rogue is 2d6 ahead in Sneak Attack, but the Slayer is +6 to-hit and +3 damage ahead (so he trades -4 damage for +6 to hit), and he has another attack again.
At 15th the Rogue is still 2d6 ahead, but the Slayer has +7 to hit and +4 damage (meaning he traded -3 damage for +7 to-hit).
Wouldn't Slashing Grace be a better feat choice at 3rd, for either class build? Assuming DEX as a primary stat, you're looking at +4 damage right there, versus an extra 1d6 on the Slayer. Likewise, any time the Slayer could be taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker, the Rogue could take it as well (it's not part of a Ranger fighting style, so no bonus feat), so it seems like the Rogue would always be ahead on damage, though admittedly the Slayer is going to hit more often, and likely do well against a wider variety of monsters, since his damage won't be dependent upon flanking or other sneak attack tactics.
That said, at low levels, the Slayer sounds awfully dull. Spend a move-action to get +1 attack/damage? Pass. Looking at third level, assuming both classes go for Slashing Grace:
Slayer (human) feats:
1: Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Finesse
2: Ranger Fighting Style, takes Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Slashing Grace
Assuming a DEX of 18, at third level with Studied Target and flank you'd have +10 or +8/+8 (1d4 + 5 + 1d6), or about 24 damage/round if you hit with both strikes.
Rogue(human) feats:
1: Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Finesse
2: Slashing Grace (via Combat Trick Rogue Talent, which is not available to Slayers)
3: Two Weapon Fighting
With DEX 18, we have +8 or +6/+6 (1d4 + 4 + 2d6), or about 30 damage/round if you hit with both strikes.
Now, losing out on +2 accuracy for ~+6 damage isn't an easy choice to make; I'd take the Slayer over an armored target no doubt, but I think there's something I'm just not getting about the Slayer. It makes sense if you're able to take advantage of the larger martial weapons and heavier armor, but otherwise it just seems like you'd do better with a straight fighter damage-wise, or a Ranger if you really wanted the extra skill points. Is there something I'm missing?
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First, Slayers can take Combat Trick.
Indeed, with that and the Weapon Training Rogue Talent (which they can also get) they can get an extra Feat every other level all the way through 12th and, as a Human, still grab a couple of other Slayer Talents via FCB. That's enough extra Feats over the Rogue that they can easily afford to burn one on Accomplished Sneak Attacker. 3rd is probably a little early to do so, but it's definitely an option by 5th or so.
Second, yeah, at 1st-4th you're only using Studied Target occasionally. But at those levels, your d10 HD, greater Fort Save, and higher BAB matter quite a bit more, too. At 5th, Studied Target goes to +2 and is suddenly much more often worth the action, and at 7th it becomes a Swift Action.
As for your math...the problem there is assuming you'll hit and get Sneak Attack. Well, and assuming Slashing Grace works when TWF (it does not, barring an additional Feat in a book that isn't out yet anyway). And assuming a Slayer would use daggers instead of kukris (they wouldn't).
But back to assuming they hit. At 3rd, that's a reasonable assumption...but by 7th? Or 11th? Not so much any more, especially on iterative attacks (which they get earlier...a 7th level TWF Slayer probably has twice as many attacks as a 7th level TWF Rogue).
As for what you're missing about the Slayer...starting around 7th, they have a better attack bonus than a Fighter (Studied Target on all opponents forever and it's +1 more than Weapon Training), equivalent damage, and Sneak Attack (the Fighter eventually equals the attack bonus via Greater Weapon Focus, and does slightly more damage when not getting Sneak Attack, but only slightly), combined with vastly better skill and utility options at most levels.
Plus, as compared to Rogue, they have some very nice defensive advantages (two Good Saves and d10 HD).
As compared to Rangers, they have the aforementioned 'twice as many Feats for the first 12 levels' plus Sneak Attack and the fact that Studied Target works on everything (and provides hefty skill bonuses). They probably fall a little behind mechanically at 10th or so when the Ranger gets Instant Enemy, but they really keep up pretty well.
First, Slayers can take Combat Trick.
You're right, I misread the list :/
Okay, so Slayer it is, then. I still feel like I'm wasting half of the class abilities (Track? in a city campaign?). I considered the Cutthroat archetype, but giving up the 2nd level talent is a hard pill to swallow.
Indeed, with that and the Weapon Training Rogue Talent (which they can also get) they can get an extra Feat every other level all the way through 12th
Combat Trick, like all rogue talents, can only be taken once.
Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Don't forget that Studied Target is an out-of-combat boost to several skills that an assassin would want to use.
It's still a worse option than Slashing Grace at third level, though.
Have you considered using a quarter staff instead of a dagger? It can be either a double weapon that can be used with two weapon fighting, or a two handed weapon. This would also allow you to go for a STR based build instead of DEX based build. This would free up a lot of feats that could be used for other things. You could also still use dagger or any other weapon when you need to. The quarter staff is pretty much a peasant weapon so no one is going to think it strange that you are carry one. You can also pretend to be an old man and use it as a walking stick.
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Combat Trick, like all rogue talents, can only be taken once.
Absolutely! Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to your ability to do the following with your Slayer Talents:
2: Combat Trick
4: Ranger Combat Style
6: Ranger Combat Style
8: Weapon Training
10: Ranger Combat Style
12: Feat
You might not want to do this, but you can and that's super neat. Especially with the Human FCB option of getting 1/6 of an additional Slayer Talent.
As for wasted abilities, you probably aren't gonna get a lot of use out of Track, it's true, but what else is wasted? I'm pretty sure everything else is gonna come up.
Only read a couple posts but the glamered armor ability lets you disguuse it. There's also a version for weapons.
Have you considered using a quarter staff instead of a dagger? It can be either a double weapon that can be used with two weapon fighting, or a two handed weapon. This would also allow you to go for a STR based build instead of DEX based build. This would free up a lot of feats that could be used for other things. You could also still use dagger or any other weapon when you need to. The quarter staff is pretty much a peasant weapon so no one is going to think it strange that you are carry one. You can also pretend to be an old man and use it as a walking stick.
Why would I want a STR build? It's either MAD as hell, or I'd be gimping all of my class skills and 1/3 of my saves. I'm asking seriously here, as this is the second mention of a str build in this thread. How is a STR build a good fit for this concept? If I wanted to build for 2h, wouldn't Barbarian or Bloodrager be objectively better?
Unrogue isn't an option because the gm said so.
Now why would STR slayer be an effective character in a stealth oriented campaign? Bad stealth, no ability to conceal weapons with sleight of hand, no acrobatics to get into position...this sounds like terrible advice.
Stygian slayer casts invis once per day. Also, if you naturally dim the light around you, you're still giving away your presence because that's pretty damn suspicious.
Unrogue isn't an option because the gm said so.
Now why would STR slayer be an effective character in a stealth oriented campaign? Bad stealth, no ability to conceal weapons with sleight of hand, no acrobatics to get into position...this sounds like terrible advice.
I think the idea isn't that you're dumping Dexterity. Pretty much only certain Oracle builds can do that.
But you do make it secondary to your Strength score.
Unrogue isn't an option because the gm said so.
Now why would STR slayer be an effective character in a stealth oriented campaign? Bad stealth, no ability to conceal weapons with sleight of hand, no acrobatics to get into position...this sounds like terrible advice.
I think the idea isn't that you're dumping Dexterity. Pretty much only certain Oracle builds can do that.
But you do make it secondary to your Strength score.
correct exept for the strength part(edit nvm i miss read what you said thought you said make strength secondary to dex)
using point buy you can get 16,12,14,14,12,7 pre racial bonuses
however if using rolling methods similar to our groups (4d6 re roll 1s,2s drop lowest if no 18 is rolled highest roll becomes 18) you could get 16(18),15,15,16,14,12 pre racial bonus (yes i actually rolled the die for these numbers) this would allow you to still be pretty decent at stealth while in a mithril chainshirt
You'd seriously dump Charisma on an assassin in an infiltration-oriented game? Seriously, how would you survive?
have the party face deal with the problem and not try and take on every single situation by myself is howYou'd seriously dump Charisma on an assassin in an infiltration-oriented game? Seriously, how would you survive?Unrogue isn't an option because the gm said so.
Now why would STR slayer be an effective character in a stealth oriented campaign? Bad stealth, no ability to conceal weapons with sleight of hand, no acrobatics to get into position...this sounds like terrible advice.
I think the idea isn't that you're dumping Dexterity. Pretty much only certain Oracle builds can do that.
But you do make it secondary to your Strength score.
correct exept for the strength part(edit nvm i miss read what you said thought you said make strength secondary to dex)
using point buy you can get 16,12,14,14,12,7 pre racial bonuses
however if using rolling methods similar to our groups (4d6 re roll 1s,2s drop lowest if no 18 is rolled highest roll becomes 18) you could get 16(18),15,15,16,14,12 pre racial bonus (yes i actually rolled the die for these numbers) this would allow you to still be pretty decent at stealth while in a mithril chainshirt
Err...you do realize that the work of being an assassin frequently requires making your own social rolls? The build you're suggesting here isn't really an assassin, it's just a front-line fighter, and a mildly inefficient one at that (seriously, why not just go Bloodrager and dump Dex entirely?)
I don't know about your games, but nearly every GM I've played with deals harshly with "DPR only" characters, if only because Paizo APs do the same. If you can only excel in one area, you're going to die in a tabletop game.
DPR?
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Something else to consider would be Inquisitor with the Sanctified Slayer archetype.
It gives you a combination of Studied Target, Sneak Attack (albeit at a slower progression), Bane and Greater Bane, and 6-Level Spontaneous Wisdom-Based Divine Spellcasting.
I played a character with this archetype with the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and Double Bane, and he was a freaking cuisinart (and increasingly scary when he was sporting Deadly Juggernaut).
Also, you get Solo Tactics for Precise Strike, Outflank, and Escape Route.
And a Good Will save.
You do give up most of your Rogue or Slayer Talents, though.