Beware of Legacy of Dragons

[kirerellim]

If you are looking for solid, balanced, dragon themed archetypes... move along there is nothing to see here. Unless I'm missing something very, very obvious all of the archetypes in this book are far weaker than their pure counterparts. Anyone else found a way of making the drake companion even comparable to an animal companion?

[Zolanoteph]

I think there's a reason some of this stuff was made a bit underpowered, or underpowered in the conventional combat centered sense.

Dragons are flamboyant, in your face ridiculous mythical creatures. I think keeping them relatively rare keeps the world a little more gritty and believable. If dragons were the new hotness in terms of power level you wouldn't see any more rangers with wolves or cavaliers on horseback. A world where dragons become banal is kind of a cartoon.

By the way, even if they're mediocre in combat you can now have an inteligent ally who can scout, impress foreign leaders and at least do something in a fight.

[Saethori]

In all fairness, I really like the flavor of the Wyrmwitch. Who doesn't want to have an excuse for sleeping on piles of treasure?

The drake is useless and the fighter archetype is poorly written, but that's no excuse to throw the whole book out.

[Chess Pwn]

charisma monk, shaman if I remember right has a decent trade, the oracle mysteries and curse seem interesting.

It like most books. 50% fairly bad and worthless, 50% stuff at varying degrees of awesome.

[swoosh]

Scaled Fist is okay outside the inherent weakness of Charisma over Wisdom. The biggest drag with that archetype is that thanks to the archetype stacking FAQs it isn't compatible with anything.

Zolanoteph wrote:

I think there's a reason some of this stuff was made a bit underpowered, or underpowered in the conventional combat centered sense.

I don't really think "dragons should be rare so let's make all this stuff garbage" is a very good excuse though.

And honestly I just get the impression that whoever wrote some of this stuff didn't want to. There's so much spite and bitterness written into the drake companion section.

[zainale]

I like the flavor of the dragon blood chymist but it seems lacking.

[KingOfAnything]

I'm enjoying the Charisma monk, myself.

[David knott 242]

kirerellim wrote:

If you are looking for solid, balanced, dragon themed archetypes... move along there is nothing to see here. Unless I'm missing something very, very obvious all of the archetypes in this book are far weaker than their pure counterparts. Anyone else found a way of making the drake companion even comparable to an animal companion?

Are you enforcing Handle Animal checks for animal companions? The main advantage that drake companions have over animal companions is that they do not require such checks. If you are handwaving away such checks, then the animal companions are stronger.

[kirerellim]

The drakes int is 4 starting. And takes a power that could be used for flying, crappy breath attack, or for the right to ride you companion. Sooooo dont think much of that.

[kirerellim]

I do enforce handle animal checks myself. Giving orders to do certain actions as a move action isn't that bad, compared to the dragons needing diplomacy or intimidate to put them into life threatening situations like, say, combat for a class that doesnt have diplomacy or intimidate as a class skill

[Dragon78]

I like the book especially the fighter and monk archetypes, alternate draconic sorcerer bloodlines, oracle curse/mystery, and some the feats. While I do have problems with a few things such as then not letting us have sonic and force based breath weapons from the alternate draconic bloodlines. I do not think the Drake companion sucks but I do think they could have had more of a variety of dragons to choose from instead of a tiny size drake. Just look at "How to Train Your Dragon" and see what dragon based companions could be like.

[Kryzbyn]

Does one have to play one of those archetypes to gain a drake companion, or can any class that gets an animal companion use the drake chart and gain the drake instead?
For instance, could a hunter gain a drake companion instead of an AC?

[swoosh]

Kryzbyn wrote:

Does one have to play one of those archetypes to gain a drake companion, or can any class that gets an animal companion use the drake chart and gain the drake instead?

For instance, could a hunter gain a drake companion instead of an AC?

You need the archetypes. Otherwise they'd actually be okay companions. Which consequently means that hunters can never get one, which is hilarious in and of itself.

David knott 242 wrote:

The main advantage that drake companions have over animal companions is that they do not require such checks.

Drake companions however do require diplomacy or intimidate checks. And are characterized as incredibly lazy.

[David knott 242]

So the drake companion still requires a charisma based skill check to obey its master? I had forgotten that part. If so, then it really is not better than an animal companion in that regard.

[kirerellim]

They cant wear any magic items outside of one ring or amulet, they require those checks, and they have to be revived rather than replaced. On top of this, their stats are generally lower and their attacks are weaker.

[CBDunkerson]

David knott 242 wrote:

So the drake companion still requires a charisma based skill check to obey its master? I had forgotten that part. If so, then it really is not better than an animal companion in that regard.

Animal Companions require a Handle Animal check to get them to do anything other than their handful of bonus tricks.

Drake companions require a Diplomacy or Intimidate skill check to get them "to fatigue themselves or take major risks to their lives".

So yes, the drake companions really are better in this (and several other) regards.

[David knott 242]

So the need for the Diplomacy/Intimidate check is a GM call for routine battles then. Or would the drake conclude that any risk that its master shares is not a major risk to its life?

[Kryzbyn]

swoosh wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Does one have to play one of those archetypes to gain a drake companion, or can any class that gets an animal companion use the drake chart and gain the drake instead?

For instance, could a hunter gain a drake companion instead of an AC?

You need the archetypes. Otherwise they'd actually be okay companions. Which consequently means that hunters can never get one, which is hilarious in and of itself.

So, you could, but not in PFS. Gotcha.

[CBDunkerson]

David knott 242 wrote:

So the need for the Diplomacy/Intimidate check is a GM call for routine battles then.

I don't think that something which they survive a few times per day (i.e. routine battles) could plausibly be described as a major risk to their life.

[Chess Pwn]

handle animal checks rarely matter at lv1 and don't matter past lv4 if just put ranks in it.

[Captain collateral damage]

Yeah, A lot of these archetypes are terrible. BUT I DON"T CARE!!! I CAN PLAY a PALADIN, RIDING ON DRAGON, AND THAT IS GLORIOUS!!!!!!!!!
:)
Anyway, I'm generally that guy in my group who has the best character, so I'm pretty sure I can make an at least passable character with these archetypes, and said character would be the coolest int the group, so...

[Melkiador]

The drake is based on a nerfed eidolon chassis. Unfortunately, designers are still too afraid of the eidolon, because the summoner was strong. But the eidolon was only one of the 3 things that made that class so powerful. The summoning SLA and early access spell list had a lot more to do with it than the eidolon. And the only time the eidolon was really a dangerous thing was when you gave it a bunch of attacks and pounce, which shouldn't have been an issue with the drake.

[Lady-J]

swoosh wrote:

Scaled Fist is okay outside the inherent weakness of Charisma over Wisdom. The biggest drag with that archetype is that thanks to the archetype stacking FAQs it isn't compatible with anything.

Zolanoteph wrote:

I think there's a reason some of this stuff was made a bit underpowered, or underpowered in the conventional combat centered sense.

I don't really think "dragons should be rare so let's make all this stuff garbage" is a very good excuse though.

And honestly I just get the impression that whoever wrote some of this stuff didn't want to. There's so much spite and bitterness written into the drake companion section.

scaled monk works amazingly with paladin gets cha to ac and saves to hit and as a deflection bonus to ac

[Lorewalker]

The different dragon bloodlines for sorcerer are great with lots of different ways to tweak your sorcerer to your liking. My favorite is the one that gives grants Psychic spell list spells to the sorcerer list which are cast like psychic spells without changing how the sorcerer casts their other spells.

The alternate racial for elves is pretty good. Can even get it on half-elves with a feat expenditure.

The human racial that lets them ignore CHA for eldritch heritage(Dragon) isn't too bad either. Limited in use... but not bad.

The new dragon familiars are fun. Not powerful, but fun.

The witch archetype isn't bad either. And looks like a lot of fun.

... I could go on. But, anyway, a good chunk of the book is not good. Mostly dealing with archetypes and the drake. The rest is either flavorful and worth taking or actually an upgrade for certain builds. I suggest the book to anyone who at least wants some extra dragon flavor.

[deuxhero]

swoosh wrote:

Scaled Fist is okay outside the inherent weakness of Charisma over Wisdom. The biggest drag with that archetype is that thanks to the archetype stacking FAQs it isn't compatible with anything.

Which currently isn't really a problem for Unchained Monk, as there are no archetypes it would stack with anyways.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Hermean Potential has a case for being the best 1st level spell in the game. Most other stuff is lame and underpowered.

[Chess Pwn]

Unchained monk now has 5 or 6 archetypes that work for it, included scaled fist.

[Odraude]

Honestly, I don't really require this book because I don't mind just having my players find a drake/wyvern/dragon, befriend it, and have a mount.

[Lorewalker]

The best bit is... if you are running a home game you can just buff up the drake to make it worth the losses to the archetypes. It'd have to be a pretty tough beast to be worth what's given up as well as replacing animal companion... but it could be done.

Or just say that drake only replaces animal companion.

[Cole Deschain]

Or just make it Medium at 1st level- I like having it take some time to get to ride, but by the time your sentient flying mount is available in the rules as written, you have options for being able to fly without it.

[Imbicatus]

Scaled fist is pretty awesome for a nagaji

[Odraude]

Or just don't spend the money and do it yourself. That way you get what you want out of the archetype.

[swoosh]

I will say that while most of the drake archetypes are bad they aren't really unusable either.

The cavalier archetype smells pretty bad because losing tactician and banner sucks. It's also pretty cruel, being named 'drake rider' and not actually being able to ride your drake for the vast majority of the game. Even the fluff excerpt at the head of the class seems designed to mock people who want to take it.

I think the worst is probably the ranger archetype though. It loses the least, but being stuck with a drake that only gets two powers (three if you count the bonus power tied to subtype), never gets bigger than small and is three levels behind (without access to boon companion like regular rangers) is pretty brutal.

7 HP when you're level 4 on a creature that's difficult or impossible to replace depending on your GM is bordering on sadistic.

[Derklord]

Saethori wrote:

In all fairness, I really like the flavor of the Wyrmwitch. Who doesn't want to have an excuse for sleeping on piles of treasure?

I love that archetype's flavor, but I feel that it was written by someone who simply doesn't understand how the Patron class feature is supposed to work. I reckon it's the same person that wrote the mind boggingly bad patrons in Horror Adventures. So many spells already on the witch list!

Scaled Fist would be good if someone didn't have the weird idea that monks were overpowered and thus Unchained Monk must have a bad save. Also, it would be good if there was a way to flurry with a starknife without jumping through 15 flaming hoops. Horror Adventures has a Cleric archetype that would actually make such a build viable on a dip... if that Cleric didn't have to worship Cthulhu.
As it is, the better bonus feats are useless because a) you have to spend normal feats to patching up your will save, so there's no net gain, and b) the only one where ignoring the prereqs would be really nice (Shatter Defenses) only becomes selectable at the level where you want to pick the feat (Medusa's Wrath) that's the biggest reason you'd want it; and the Cha focus is completely wasted by being forced to dump Int on a 4 skill rank class, which means not many skill ranks to spare on diplomacy or UMD.

Wyrm Singer is not bad in the right party, the bonuses from Draconic Rage are actually higher then Inspire Courage's a half the time, and rage powers still work with it.

I like the idea of Cavetous curse + Burned Hands on a dual cursed Oracle... pretty nasty debuff for Oracle's Burden.
Also, the Dragon mystery is abusable for high level characters because you can get wizard spells with material costs as SLA - at lvl15, Permanency or Fabricate (if that would still work), at 19th level, Limited Wish or Similacrum. It might even make one of the Symbol spells usable.

[Torbyne]

Derklord wrote:

Scaled Fist would be good if someone didn't have the weird idea that monks were overpowered and thus Unchained Monk must have a bad save. Also, it would be good if there was a way to flurry with a starknife without jumping through 15 flaming hoops. Horror Adventures has a Cleric archetype that would actually make such a build viable on a dip... if that Cleric didn't have to worship Cthulhu.

Its not ideal but is it really 15 flaming hoops to flurry with a Starknife? Dip one level of Crusader Cleric of Desna and you qualify for crusader's flurry. Give up your domain power and you can get the benefit of Divine Fighting Technique without meeting any requirements... ie, maintaining a CG alignment. At level 2 go Scaled Fist Unmonk. At level three take Crusader's Flurry as your feat.

[Rysky]

Torbyne wrote:

Derklord wrote:

Scaled Fist would be good if someone didn't have the weird idea that monks were overpowered and thus Unchained Monk must have a bad save. Also, it would be good if there was a way to flurry with a starknife without jumping through 15 flaming hoops. Horror Adventures has a Cleric archetype that would actually make such a build viable on a dip... if that Cleric didn't have to worship Cthulhu.

Its not ideal but is it really 15 flaming hoops to flurry with a Starknife? Dip one level of Crusader Cleric of Desna and you qualify for crusader's flurry. Give up your domain power and you can get the benefit of Divine Fighting Technique without meeting any requirements... ie, maintaining a CG alignment. At level 2 go Scaled Fist Unmonk. At level three take Crusader's Flurry as your feat.

Uh, if your alignment switches from CG to LG you lose your Cleric stuff if your Deity is Desna (CG)

[Torbyne]

Rysky wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Derklord wrote:

Scaled Fist would be good if someone didn't have the weird idea that monks were overpowered and thus Unchained Monk must have a bad save. Also, it would be good if there was a way to flurry with a starknife without jumping through 15 flaming hoops. Horror Adventures has a Cleric archetype that would actually make such a build viable on a dip... if that Cleric didn't have to worship Cthulhu.

Its not ideal but is it really 15 flaming hoops to flurry with a Starknife? Dip one level of Crusader Cleric of Desna and you qualify for crusader's flurry. Give up your domain power and you can get the benefit of Divine Fighting Technique without meeting any requirements... ie, maintaining a CG alignment. At level 2 go Scaled Fist Unmonk. At level three take Crusader's Flurry as your feat.

Uh, if your alignment switches from CG to LG you lose your Cleric stuff if your Deity is Desna (CG)

i was thinking of just the DFT feat which you wouldnt lose for changing alignment but the change would cost you the channel energy that you need for Crusader's Flurry :(

[Saethori]

Also, Desna's fighting style doesn't require you to be CG, but my understanding of Golarion rules is that you do have to be within one step to qualify for worship benefits.

[Kalindlara]

A neutral good agathion-blooded aasimar with the Enlightened Warrior trait could do it. ^_^

[Imbicatus]

Also, if a monk becomes non-lawful they retain all class abilities. Nothing stops you from starting monk and then switching to desna worship.

[Derklord]

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, if a monk becomes non-lawful they retain all class abilities. Nothing stops you from starting monk and then switching to desna worship.

Doesn't help if you want to be a Monk (which was my presumption), and not a Cleric with a Monk dip.

Saethori wrote:

my understanding of Golarion rules is that you do have to be within one step to qualify for worship benefits.

I've seen a dev give his personal opinion, but is there an actual rule for that? Even though I still don't see what makes Desna chaotic except "they needed another CG god for an even spread".

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Derklord wrote:

Even though I still don't see what makes Desna chaotic except "they needed another CG god for an even spread".[/smaller]

Read her writeup in Inner Sea Gods... she's essentially the Pandora/Tasslehoff of the Pantheon.

[Derklord]

Ahem, "• I will not let caution stay my hand in the face of evil.
• I will be relentless in serving my community.
• Every discovery might be an asset for good. Learning and exploration are my sacred duties.
• Levity deflates pride. I will never oppose good-natured mischief that violates no law."

That's a paladin code. The law-chaos axis is rather vague, but I don't see what makes Desna more chaotic than neutral.

[Cole Deschain]

Her reluctance to settle down to a single line of action, generally... even her hunt for Ghlaunder isn't entirely single-minded.

[Orannis]

Also the outside chance that Desna could be an Elder God playing a very long con.

[JiCi]

Oh come on now, some of the stuff are great:
- The Dragon mystery and curse are nice. BTW, the curse is probably one of the least troublesome curses in the game.
- The Alchemist, Fighter, Monk, Skald and Witch archetypes are nice.
- Good stuff for wyvarans
- The drake-related stuff is good.
- New familiars and spells are nice.

It does have issues though, like any other booklet:
- The Drake companion... starts as Tiny, meaning that to ride it, you need to be 9th-level if Small or 13th-level if Medium, and no, the drake cannot grow larger via a power.

- The samurai archetype trades the mount for a non-scalable bonus...

[Lady-J]

JiCi wrote:

Oh come on now, some of the stuff are great:

- The Dragon mystery and curse are nice. BTW, the curse is probably one of the least troublesome curses in the game.

what curse is that?

[Kalindlara]

Lady-J wrote:

JiCi wrote:

BTW, the curse is probably one of the least troublesome curses in the game.

what curse is that?

Covetous. ^_^

[Ventnor]

Kalindlara wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

JiCi wrote:

BTW, the curse is probably one of the least troublesome curses in the game.

what curse is that?

Covetous. ^_^

The gods have cursed you to wear something like this all the time.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

David knott 242 wrote:

So the need for the Diplomacy/Intimidate check is a GM call for routine battles then. Or would the drake conclude that any risk that its master shares is not a major risk to its life?

Do they at least give you a rule that changes the check to a Move action, or are you stuck talking to your drake for 10 rounds if you want it to participate in a particularly dangerous battle?