Ring of Invisibility Question


Rules Questions

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Snowlilly wrote:
Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

It is 'usually' activated by a command word. OR it's effects work continuously. If it is neither of these then, as per the sentence I bolded that you ignored: Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

The Ring of Invisibility does not have an unusual activation mentioned in its description, therefore it is a 'usual' ring activation, which is either 'command word' (most of them) or 'continuous' (like a ring of protection).

And it ain't continuous.


Snowlilly wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

Nobody is saying it is always. They are saying it is the standard unless the ring's effect is continually in play or it has a specific unusual method of activation.

You are not always invisible, and the ring has no special method of activation mentioned.

So since the ring rules only give you three options and 2 are ruled out that leaves the standard action.

Now I am going to find this trait thread.

ok, I found it. It is a small number of posters who regularly post who support that claim. You have to consider the source when you want to make it seem like most of us agree with something.

Argument here

** spoiler omitted **

Derailed trait argument:
The majority is in the clear the a 'Trait Bonus' is a 'Trait Bonus'.

You seem to be under the impression that every trait grants a 'Trait Bonus', if not specified otherwise.

Traits wrote:
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a “trait” bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they’re intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character’s traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage./.../

This is what you presented as proof of your view. (With the previous sentence bolded, but let's focus on the second sentence)

This bolded part is not refering to all bonuses granted by traits. It is refering to the 'Trait Bonus(es)'.

Since the sentence before it introduces the term 'Trait Bonus', one can assume that the next sentence refers to that specific term. And not all trait bonuses (I.E. all bonuses granted from traits).

It is a very important distinction to make. And it is the distinction the majority has done.

So, no. A bonus granted from a trait is not a 'Trait Bonus' if not specified. It is only a 'Trait Bonus' if specified as a 'Trait Bonus'.
An untyped bonus granted from a trait would stack with any other bonus, 'Trait Bonus' included.


I'm sorry I started this thread.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm sorry I started this thread.

It does show that some people are confused about how the ring rules work so maybe now we can get clarification on that. That makes it a good think IMO. I will start an FAQ on rings and activation later on.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.
I find it amusing that exactly the opposite argument was used, by quite a few people, when arguing that trait bonuses are untyped.

I find it amusing that you are also reversing the argument that you made in that thread.

Snowlilly wrote:
Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.
As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

No one is arguing here that rings always use command words. The rules section for rings clearly states otherwise. The issue at hand is whether the default activation method is command word. I don't think the wording in the two situations is equivalent. Saying that 'many' traits have a trait bonus simply establishes that there are a significant number of such instances. Given that 'usual' and 'normal' are synonyms, stating that rings 'usually' use the command word activation goes a lot further, in my opinion, towards making that the norm.

Snowlilly wrote:
Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

There is still the fact that the Meridian Belt description explicitly calls out the Ring of Invisibility as requiring a standard action to activate.


Link to ring activation FAQ


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Snowlilly wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.

I find it amusing that exactly the opposite argument was used, by quite a few people, when arguing that trait bonuses are untyped.

Even though the general rules for traits state many traits give a trait bonus, the consensus was all traits bonuses are untyped unless explicitly stated otherwise.

This opinion prevailed even with an explicit statement of RAI in the trait rules stating that traits are not intended to stack.

If explicit wording is required in once circumstance, one would think explicit wording is also required in all similar circumstances.

1. This discussion is about the activation rules of rings, and has nothing to do with traits.

2. I was not/am not involved with any discussion concerning Trait Bonuses, so I don't give a flying fiddle about what people have said/are saying about them.

The subjects of other Threads need to stay in those Threads.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm sorry I started this thread.

Don't ever be sorry for asking a question!

The very fact that a disagreement has broken out is proof that the rules are not crystal clear; but if you had not asked, there might never have been a discussion about it, and in turn there might not have ever been an opportunity to clarify things.

Asking questions is good, and you should never feel sorry for the opinions or comments of others; you are not responsible for their beliefs or their behavior. :)


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Deadbeat Doom wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm sorry I started this thread.

Don't ever be sorry for asking a question!

The very fact that a disagreement has broken out is proof that the rules are not crystal clear; but if you had not asked, there might never have been a discussion about it, and in turn there might not have ever been an opportunity to clarify things.

Asking questions is good, and you should never feel sorry for the opinions or comments of others; you are not responsible for their beliefs or their behavior. :)

I too think you should never be sorry for asking a question.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm sorry I started this thread.

If you feel that bad, maybe you should... Run DMC.

...

I'll be over there.

Seriously, though, this is a good thing to get clarity on. Thanks for bringing it up.


Snowlilly wrote:


We are given two options for activation.

The Ring of Invisibility does not specify that a command word is the default method.

Snowlilly wrote:

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

Actually, from the Use-activated rules...

Quote:

*...snip...*

... However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

From the two options, one says command word while the other says mentally willing... but keep im mind I included something else in the bold section... the (see above) statement. Because of the (see above) statement, we must read extra rules found on the Command Word section first before we can chose the method that benefits us most.

Quote:
Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

So, the moment an item's activation method is command word, command word is needed. It's no longer a choice but the only possible activation method unless the item description or the item nature specifically suggests something else.

Checking the item description gives us nothing, it only says that we must activate it, not how.

Checking the item nature section, we find that rings have a specific subsection to them unlike wondrous items, for example, that use the generic "wearable" rules.

Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.
  • 1.- Continuous (no activation required)
  • 2-. Command Word (if the ring needs activation)
  • 3-. Unusual method (if a specific activation method is written in the ring description)

Since a ring of Invisibility is not continuous and no unusual activation method is described, the item nature points us to Command Word, and command word is needed, no "sometimes" or "usually".


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There is ample evidence that the default activation method for non-continuous rings is by command word (as above posts clearly demonstrate).

Gisher added:
"the Meridian Belt description explicitly calls out the Ring of Invisibility as requiring a standard action to activate. "

I only see a small bit of leeway in interpretation here. This ring is always going to require a standard action to activate. The *real* question is whether or not you have to actually say a word (in a loud, clear voice) or not.

Nowhere do we see evidence that mentally willing an item to activate takes less than a standard action.

However it is at the very least inconvenient for the invisible spy sneaking through an enemy camp to loudly announce "cucumber!" every three minutes or less. <g>

Given the non-specific language on the ring of invisibility's description, I could see a typical DM allowing it to be activated by will instead of by voice. But that would still require a standard action.

RAW seems to mandate voice activation, though.

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