Ring of Invisibility Question


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So, a couple of my players have Rings of Invisibility. When they attack someone, do they become visible until they activate the ring again? And is reactivating the ring a standard action, like casting the spell?


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Yes, and yes. The ring follows standard invisibity spell rules, and standard rules for item activation.


yes and yes.


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Yes. It's a ring of invisibility, not a ring of greater invisibility.
Yes. as per this FAQ it is use activated


Thanks, ya'll!


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
So, a couple of my players have Rings of Invisibility. When they attack someone, do they become visible until they activate the ring again? And is reactivating the ring a standard action, like casting the spell?

The duration of the invisibility effect is also dependent on the ring's caster level.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
So, a couple of my players have Rings of Invisibility. When they attack someone, do they become visible until they activate the ring again? And is reactivating the ring a standard action, like casting the spell?
The duration of the invisibility effect is also dependent on the ring's caster level.

Um... No.

Invisibility wrote:

INVISIBILITY

School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Magic Item Creation wrote:

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2
Ring of Invisiblity wrote:

RING OF INVISIBILITY

Price 20,000 gp; Aura faint illusion; CL 3rd; Weight —
By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 10,000gp

2X3X2,000gpX2=20,000gp

CL is just the difficulty of creating the item.

If you where going by Charges per day...

Magic Item Creaton wrote:

Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp

Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

2X3X1,800gpX(5/we will say 5per day)=10,800gp

Math doesn't add up.
You could figer out the number of charges per day to be 9, at a cost of 19,440gp
But the description of a Ring of Invsibility dos NOT give a number of charges per day.

WELL... AFTER I DID ALL THE ABOVE...

FAQ wrote:

When I use a magic item like ring of invisibility or hat of disguise that can be activated to gain the effects of a spell, does the wording "as the spell" also include the spell’s duration?

Yes, such items' effects have a duration, as indicated by the spell’s duration and the item’s caster level. If the item has no daily use limit, however, you can simply use the item again to reset the duration.

The above FAQ says it has a duration, that can be used with no daily limit.

But the USE to activate is to have it on, which you do, so the duration resets not ends. Which makes it continuous anyway. I don't understand, unless it continues to function for the duration after the item is taken off???


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A continuous item does not have a duration. You can 'reset' the duration by activating it again, but if you don't, the duration will end and you will turn visible.

Yes, it makes the ring (and hat of disguise) rather stupid, but that's what the FAQ says.


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Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

The ring says it must be activated. It does not say it functions continuously. Activation is usually a command word - you don't activate the ring by putting it on like the One Ring.

Also, trying to determine how it functions by using the formulas doesn't always work, as not all items follow those formulas. Some items are given prices that sounded right to the designers, or used the formulas as a base and adjusted up or down.


Use Activated wrote:

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.

So... Think the command word (free action), item duration resets, not stops. So invisibility dose not have a gap.

I understand that when the user attacks, invisiblity ends. Then it is a free action to activate. Which would be a gap in the use of the ring.

Words like usually make problems like this.


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You are still assuming it is use-activated or continuous. It isn't. IT is a command-word activated item.

If it was a continuous item (or required a free action to reactivate), you could attack, become invisible, attack again, and so on in the same round. Effectively, you have a ring of greater invisibility (one that is vastly underpriced).


Greater Invisibility you don't become visible, so your identity and square you attack from remains unknown.
Invisibility you will become visible, you can be identified and the square you attack from is known.

Use Activated wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Other Rings say a Command Word is needed, Ring of Invisibility just says it needs to be activated.


Dr Styx wrote:

So... Think the command word (free action), item duration resets, not stops. So invisibility dose not have a gap.

I understand that when the user attacks, invisiblity ends. Then it is a free action to activate. Which would be a gap in the use of the ring.

Words like usually make problems like this.

Command Word activation is a standard action, not a free action.

CRB, Magic Items wrote:

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Gisher wrote:

Command Word activation is a standard action, not a free action.

CRB, Magic Items wrote:

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You are correct... except...

Use Actived wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
FAQ wrote:

When I use a magic item like ring of invisibility or hat of disguise that can be activated to gain the effects of a spell, does the wording "as the spell" also include the spell’s duration?

Yes, such items' effects have a duration, as indicated by the spell’s duration and the item’s caster level. If the item has no daily use limit, however, you can simply use the item again to reset the duration.


Rings require a standard action to activate. This was covered when the debate came up before. It nobody finds it before I get home I will post the relevant info. Many were upset about it.


Dr Styx, I am very confused as to whether you think the Ring of Invisibility uses command word activation or not. First you stated that it did use a command word.

Dr Styx wrote:
So... Think the command word (free action), item duration resets, not stops.

But command words don't work like that. Command words must be spoken out loud rather than merely thought about, and they require a standard action rather than a free action.

CRB wrote:

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Your response makes me think that you believe the ring is activated by will rather than a command word, but I can't reconcile that with your earlier statement that it does have a command word.


Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually.

Rings such as the ring of protection which always have their effects in play are continuous. If the ability has to be activated then it uses a command word.


Hahahahaha... again you are correct...
I should have said "will the activation" not "think the command word".

So (will repost again)

Use Activated wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time, activation is not an action at all.

You wear a Ring.

You must activate the Invisibility by using it or mentally willing it
Camand Word is not in the description of the Ring.


Dr Styx wrote:

Hahahahaha... again you are correct...

I should have said "will the activation" not "think the command word".

So (will repost again)

Use Activated wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time, activation is not an action at all.

You wear a Ring.

You must activate the Invisibility by using it or mentally willing it
Camand Word is not in the description of the Ring.

My quote that is above yours says that rings which are activated use command words.


No your quote says is usually a command word.
The quote from me in your post says;
"the description of an item states wether a command word is needed in such a case."
The description of a Ring of Invisibility says it needs to be activated.
No mention of a command word is in the description.

In the FAQ quote it also says use the item again, not to say a command word agin.

Liberty's Edge

It was either a developer post or an FAQ that clarified that anytime an item uses a phrase including "activate" or "activating", it is a standard action to do so. Because the ring works like invisibility, the invisibility function fails after an attack. This means that you would need to activate it again as a standard action.

I can't perform the same search wizardry that others here can, but this sort of thing has been clarified before.


Dr Styx wrote:

Hahahahaha... again you are correct...

I should have said "will the activation" not "think the command word".

So (will repost again)

Use Activated wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time, activation is not an action at all.

You wear a Ring.

You must activate the Invisibility by using it or mentally willing it
Camand Word is not in the description of the Ring.

Ok, now I understand what your position is. So I'm curious how you explain this.

UE wrote:

MERIDIAN BELT

This narrow cloth belt has a silver buckle in the shape of four rings. The belt allows a creature to wear a magic ring on each foot in addition to the ring on each hand, though only two rings function at any given time. As a swift action, the wearer can change which of his rings are active (both hands, both feet, left hand and right foot, and so on). For example, a creature could wear a ring of protection, ring of energy resistance, ring of swimming, and ring of counterspells, switching between any two of them as a swift action each round as it desires.

The belt does not change the type of action required to activate a ring (for example, activating a ring of invisibility is still a standard action), but allows the wearer to easily switch between the constant powers of several worn rings. While the belt is worn, wearing a ring on a foot counts toward the attunement process of certain rings (such as a ring of sustenance) even if the belt isn’t used to make that ring active during that attunement period.


Dr Styx wrote:

No your quote says is usually a command word.

The quote from me in your post says;
"the description of an item states wether a command word is needed in such a case."
The description of a Ring of Invisibility says it needs to be activated.
No mention of a command word is in the description.

In the FAQ quote it also says use the item again, not to say a command word agin.

My quote says that activating it uses as command word.

Here is the quote " A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word..."

After that it says "or its effects work continually."

My quote is from the ring section specifically.

Either the ring is activated by use or the effect is always working. We know you are not always invisible, and the ring says it must be use activated. That means it needs a command word. Specific trumps general and the ring rules are more specific to rings than the general magic item rules are.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

No your quote says is usually a command word.

The quote from me in your post says;
"the description of an item states wether a command word is needed in such a case."
The description of a Ring of Invisibility says it needs to be activated.
No mention of a command word is in the description.

In the FAQ quote it also says use the item again, not to say a command word agin.

My quote says that activating it uses as command word.

Here is the quote " A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word..."

After that it says "or its effects work continually."

My quote is from the ring section specifically.

Either the ring is activated by use or the effect is always working. We know you are not always invisible, and the ring says it must be use activated. That means it needs a command word. Specific trumps general and the ring rules are more specific to rings than the general magic item rules are.

And here is Mark Seifter on this topic.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Not one of the four of us thought it was continuous or even possibly continuous, but it's true that I personally wasn't sure it defaulted to command word over use-activated until some people in the thread pointed out that it's in the rules for rings.

This might be the quote you mentioned a few posts ago.


Gisher wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Dr Styx wrote:

No your quote says is usually a command word.

The quote from me in your post says;
"the description of an item states wether a command word is needed in such a case."
The description of a Ring of Invisibility says it needs to be activated.
No mention of a command word is in the description.

In the FAQ quote it also says use the item again, not to say a command word agin.

My quote says that activating it uses as command word.

Here is the quote " A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word..."

After that it says "or its effects work continually."

My quote is from the ring section specifically.

Either the ring is activated by use or the effect is always working. We know you are not always invisible, and the ring says it must be use activated. That means it needs a command word. Specific trumps general and the ring rules are more specific to rings than the general magic item rules are.

And here is Mark Seifter on this topic.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Not one of the four of us thought it was continuous or even possibly continuous, but it's true that I personally wasn't sure it defaulted to command word over use-activated until some people in the thread pointed out that it's in the rules for rings.
This might be the quote you mentioned a few posts ago.

Yeah, that is it.

That was Mark saying he see that it uses a command word, but I figured I would quote the exact "ring rules" also.


This is how I would put my thinking into practice.

Bob would like to use his Ring of Invisibility. Sneak up on a guard, and attack him.

1st round-
To use it he must put the ring on to activate it.(1)
(1 standard action to put it on and will it to work)
Then he starts moving to the guard.

2nd round-
Still moving to guard. (2)

3rd round-
Still moving to guard.
Mentally wills Ring to reset duration. (3,resets to 1)
(CL of Ring is 3, so 3 rounds duration).

4th round- surprise
Bob finally gets to guard.
Bob attacks guard, becomes visible. (2, then ends)
Guard dos not die from attack.
Bob wills Ring to activate. (Ring is already on, so a non-action)(1)

5th round-
Bob loses initiative
Guard attacks square he thinks Bob is in (50% miss chance). He hits Bob with his spear.
Bob thinks "dang, I need to get out of here."
Bob moves away from guard. (2)

6th round-
Bob still moving away from guard. (3)
Guard readys to attack Bob when he spots him.

7th round-
(Bob forgot to will Ring to activate, so he becomes visible)(ends)
Guard throws a Spear at Bob, and drops Bob below 0hp.

Yes I know the Ring Is not continuous, but it can act like it as long as the user remembers to reset it's duration.


Quote:

3rd round-

Still moving to guard.
Mentally wills Ring to reset duration. (3,resets to 1)
(CL of Ring is 3, so 3 rounds duration).

The ring lasts for 3 minutes per use, not 3 rounds.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Dr Styx

PRD wrote:


Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

What part of "Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description." is unclear? If a ring isn't continuos or don't use a command word for activation will be explicitly stated in its description.

Rind of invisibility wrote:
By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.

Some unusual activation method is mentioned in that row of text?

No, none is mentioned. So we default to the usual activation method, i.e. "a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity)".
Nothing support your idea that a silent free action can be used to extend the ring effect duration.

The ring of invisibility has stopped being a continuo or long lasting item with the advent of 3rd edition.
I am perfectly aware that before that it had a duration of 24 hours and was activated by wearing it, but it had specific rules about deactivation after attacking. If I recall correctly in the first edition of AD&D it was not possible to reactivate it for 10 minutes after attacking from invisibility.


Dr Styx wrote:

This is how I would put my thinking into practice.

Bob would like to use his Ring of Invisibility. Sneak up on a guard, and attack him.

1st round-
To use it he must put the ring on to activate it.(1)
(1 standard action to put it on and will it to work)
Then he starts moving to the guard.

2nd round-
Still moving to guard. (2)

3rd round-
Still moving to guard.
Mentally wills Ring to reset duration. (3,resets to 1)
(CL of Ring is 3, so 3 rounds duration).

4th round- surprise
Bob finally gets to guard.
Bob attacks guard, becomes visible. (2, then ends)
Guard dos not die from attack.
Bob wills Ring to activate. (Ring is already on, so a non-action)(1)

5th round-
Bob loses initiative
Guard attacks square he thinks Bob is in (50% miss chance). He hits Bob with his spear.
Bob thinks "dang, I need to get out of here."
Bob moves away from guard. (2)

6th round-
Bob still moving away from guard. (3)
Guard readys to attack Bob when he spots him.

7th round-
(Bob forgot to will Ring to activate, so he becomes visible)(ends)
Guard throws a Spear at Bob, and drops Bob below 0hp.

Yes I know the Ring Is not continuous, but it can act like it as long as the user remembers to reset it's duration.

I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.

A ring of invisibility does not activate when you put it on, you turn invisible when you use the command word as a standard action; at which point the power of the ring activates for three minutes, or until you take an action that causes it to end early.

You can allow the invisibility to run out on it's own, or dismiss the effect, or end it with an attack, or reset the duration via the command word; what you cannot do is put the ring on and instantly become invisible, or silently will yourself to be invisible.


Dr Styx, you do understand that a ring with its effect working continually means that the effect is always on right?<--Feel free to answer this question.

If a ring of invisibility had the effect(which is invisibility) always on then you would be always invisible. <-----If you disagree and think that making you invisible does not always make you invisible then state why.

Now since you are not always invisible that effect must be activated.

According to the ring rules, which you seem to want to ignore that requires a standard action because the ring rules give you two options. Command word or always on. That is pretty much it.

Now if you disagree tell me how the rings rules don't agree with what I am saying.

If you believe the general magic item rules trump the rules made specifically for an item type then state why you believe so.

If possible also state why the devs(who have been quoted), and a rule about another item posted above are not agreeing with your position.


Personally I don't really like the ring having a command word you have to repeat as a standard action every 3 minutes, but that is how it is written.

A houserule to allow it being activated silently would at least give it an edge over a simple wand of invisibility, which is much cheaper and lasts quite some time.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The wand require to be successful at a UMD check with a DC of 20. A noticeable expenditure of resources for all the classes with 4 or less skill point/level.


Jeraa wrote:
Quote:

3rd round-

Still moving to guard.
Mentally wills Ring to reset duration. (3,resets to 1)
(CL of Ring is 3, so 3 rounds duration).
The ring lasts for 3 minutes per use, not 3 rounds.

Yes I was wrong here, at 1:00am I mixed up the duration time in my head.

The point I was trying to make, was about activation not duration length.


wraithstrike wrote:

Dr Styx, you do understand that a ring with its effect working continually means that the effect is always on right?<--Feel free to answer this question.

If a ring of invisibility had the effect(which is invisibility) always on then you would be always invisible. <-----If you disagree and think that making you invisible does not always make you invisible then state why.

Now since you are not always invisible that effect must be activated.

According to the ring rules, which you seem to want to ignore that requires a standard action because the ring rules give you two options. Command word or always on. That is pretty much it.

Now if you disagree tell me how the rings rules don't agree with what I am saying.

If you believe the general magic item rules trump the rules made specifically for an item type then state why you believe so.

Rings wrote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity), or its effects may work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

So not "Command Word or Always on"

It's "Usually Command Word or Always on"
Ok, so how do we know when Usually not a Command Word.

Use Activation wrote:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time, activation is not an action at all.
wraithstrike wrote:
If possible also state why the devs(who have been quoted), and a rule about another item posted above are not agreeing with your position.

The devs(who have been quoted) where quoted from this forum. Not as an official paizo post, like the FAQ post.

MERIDIAN BELT wrote:
The belt does not change the type of action required to activate a ring (for example, activating a ring of invisibility is still a standard action)

To first activate a Ring of Invisibility, you first must put it on. (a Standard Action)

To reset the duration of the Ring, you must activate it by having it on.
(a Non-Action, because it is already on)


Dr Styx wrote:
Rings wrote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity), or its effects may work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

So not "Command Word or Always on"

It's "Usually Command Word or Always on"
Ok, so how do we know when Usually not a Command Word.

By finishing reading that paragraph you qouted.

"Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description."

Ring of Invisibility has no mention of an unusual activation, so it is a standard action.

The rules of use-activated items you quoted does not trump the specific rules for rings you quoted first.


So it seems nothing less than an FAQ on rings will satisfy Styxx.


Styxx the ring rules do not mention anything about wearing it as the method of using a standard action to activate it.

Correction to my previous quote.

1. has to be activated via Command word<---only option left

2. effect continually on<--not this since you are not always invisible.

3. Unusual method described in the description<-----not anywhere in the description

Once again if you think the general rules trump the rings rules say why.

Also if you need an FAQ that ring activations default to a command word unless otherwise stated in the description let me know, and I can start an FAQ for that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Styxx, the part where you're going wrong is that you're assuming that the general item activation rules can override the specific rules for an item type. They don't.

The ring rules say "usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually." This sets the default for how rings work. Some rings (protection, regeneration, evasion, climbing, etc) state that they work continuously. So they do. Some rings (invisibility, of the ram, friend shield) say they must be activated. So they need command words to activate, per the ring rules. And some rings have unusual activations (spell storing, feather fall, force shield) which activate in unusual ways. The ring description explains these.

The point is, this bit of Use Activation:

Quote:
However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

is being overridden by the ring rules which say that if a ring needs to be activated it is a command word unless specifically noted otherwise.

The way you've constructed your interpretation of the rules, it goes like this:

Rings are command word or use activated, and because use activated items must specifically say if they need a command word, a ring of invisibility doesn't need a command word.

The logic failure here is assuming that rings are use activated by default, when the rules say they are either activated by command word, or use activated.


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Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.

I find it amusing that exactly the opposite argument was used, by quite a few people, when arguing that trait bonuses are untyped.

Even though the general rules for traits state many traits give a trait bonus, the consensus was all traits bonuses are untyped unless explicitly stated otherwise.

This opinion prevailed even with an explicit statement of RAI in the trait rules stating that traits are not intended to stack.

If explicit wording is required in once circumstance, one would think explicit wording is also required in all similar circumstances.


A ring of invisibility is a Command Word, Use-Activated, Spell-based, 3 min lasting magic item.

Normally, Mentally Willing is meant for WONDROUS ITEMS that do not have a specific subclass for themselves. For wondrous items, you will mentally activate most of them unless they specifically state that a command word is required (For example, A FOLDING BOAT requires a command word, while an AMULET OF THE PLANES would simply require you to wish for activation (and pass the INT check to reach the desired plane)) but for items having subclasses, specific ruling (WEARABLE > RING) always overrides generic ruling (WEARABLE > [...]), not the other way.

From the Item Description we get three pieces of info:

Ring of Invisibility

  • 1-. CL3: Caster of 3rd level.
  • 2-. Activating: The ring requires activation, thus effect is not continuous
  • 3-. The effect is spell-like, and since it has a non-continuous effect, duration on activation equals the spell duration (1min/level)based on the caster's/creator's level (3)

Since effect is Use-Activated, we first go to the generic Use-Activation section to get more data

  • 4-. Simply wearing an invisibility ring does NOT activate the power it contains, you must still intentionally activate the ring's effect, either by using a command word or mentally wanting to activate the ring's power

From the Use-Activated section, we see that Command word has a specific (see above) rule we have to check in the Command Word section. Once there, we see that now we have to assume that a command word is NEEDED by default, still we have to check the Item Description and the Item Nature of the RINGS section to confirm this.

Item Description: Says nothing, you only activate the ring.
Item Nature: Item Nature DOES say something about activation.

We have three ring-specific activation options.

Since ring effect is NOT continuous, and item description doesn't say anything about an unusual activation method...

  • 5-. Ring of Invisibility activation method is COMMAND WORD (default for use-activated rings)


Yorien wrote:


  • 4-. Simply wearing an invisibility ring does NOT activate the power it contains, you must still intentionally activate the ring's effect, either by using a command word or mentally wanting to activate the ring's power

We are given two options for activation.

The Ring of Invisibility does not specify that a command word is the default method.


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Snowlilly wrote:
The Ring of Invisibility does not specify that a command word is the default method.

The default for all rings is command word, unless the ring says otherwise. Ring of Invisibility does not say otherwise, so it is command word.


The general rules for rings specifies that command word is the default method:

Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.


Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.


Snowlilly wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.

I find it amusing that exactly the opposite argument was used, by quite a few people, when arguing that trait bonuses are untyped.

Even though the general rules for traits state many traits give a trait bonus, the consensus was all traits bonuses are untyped unless explicitly stated otherwise.

This opinion prevailed even with an explicit statement of RAI in the trait rules stating that traits are not intended to stack.

If explicit wording is required in once circumstance, one would think explicit wording is also required in all similar circumstances.

Most people here know better. By the very definition of it being a "trait" bonus it is not untyped. I really doubt the majority of the people here made that case.


wraithstrike wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Under the basic rules for magic rings, it is stated that rings are usually command word activated, as opposed to being use-activated as you appear to want them to be. When the rules say usually, what that means is that all rings are command word activated, unless a specific ring says otherwise for the powers of that ring only.

I find it amusing that exactly the opposite argument was used, by quite a few people, when arguing that trait bonuses are untyped.

Even though the general rules for traits state many traits give a trait bonus, the consensus was all traits bonuses are untyped unless explicitly stated otherwise.

This opinion prevailed even with an explicit statement of RAI in the trait rules stating that traits are not intended to stack.

If explicit wording is required in once circumstance, one would think explicit wording is also required in all similar circumstances.

Most people here know better. By the very definition of it being a "trait" bonus it is not untyped. I really doubt the majority of the people here made that case.

I was the sole person arguing trait bonuses should be typed as 'trait bonus' by default.

The presence of the word 'many' instead of 'all' in the general rule was used as the counter argument, by quite a few people.


Snowlilly wrote:
Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

Nobody is saying it is always. They are saying it is the standard unless the ring's effect is continually in play or it has a specific unusual method of activation.

You are not always invisible, and the ring has no special method of activation mentioned.

So since the ring rules only give you three options and 2 are ruled out that leaves the standard action.

Now I am going to find this trait thread.

ok, I found it. It is a small number of posters who regularly post who support that claim. You have to consider the source when you want to make it seem like most of us agree with something.


As for the trait issue I have created an FAQ.

Trait bonus FAQ


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wraithstrike wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Quote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

As was pointed out so enthusiastically in the traits bonus type thread: usually =/= always.

Unless you can show where the Ring of Invisibility is explicitly bound a single activation type, we are left with the possibility of mental activation, a standard means of activation under the activated item rules.

Nobody is saying it is always. They are saying it is the standard unless the ring's effect is continually in play or it has a specific unusual method of activation.

You are not always invisible, and the ring has no special method of activation mentioned.

So since the ring rules only give you three options and 2 are ruled out that leaves the standard action.

Now I am going to find this trait thread.

ok, I found it. It is a small number of posters who regularly post who support that claim. You have to consider the source when you want to make it seem like most of us agree with something.

Argument here

Spoiler:

Snowlilly wrote:
Belafon wrote:


Right.

Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.

While many traits grant a numerical bonus, not all traits do so.

Any numerical bonus granted by a trait is typed as a trait bonus unless explicitly called out otherwise.

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