Hello,
I'll be playing a druid in a new campaign, and our DM has specifically banned all dinosaurs from his setting. We're mostly Core/APG/UM/UC only, but can sometimes include other feats if they're considered balanced.
(He's an awesome GM, so the issue isn't whether it's a good idea or not to ban many options, but how to deal with it ^^).
So... i'm torn between a rhinoceros and a tiger.
At level 1 w/o feats:
- Rhino gives me 13hp, 16 AC, and a very respectable attack (+3 for 1d8+3 damage)
- Tiger gives me 11hp, 14 AC, and 3 attacks at +2 (1d6+1, 1d4+1 x 2).
They're both medium, with scent/low-light and 40ft move.
So it looks like Rhino's tougher and deals more damage with better accuracy, especially since tiger doesn't have pounce yet. The only time tiger is better is when full attacking AND getting three lucky rolls.
At druid level 7 w/o feats and spells, they both got bigger.
- Rhino now has 52 gp and 22 AC, one attack at +10 that deals 2d6+10 and Powerful Charge for 4d6+15
- Tiger now has pounce. It has 46hp, 19 AC, three attacks at +9 that can grab (at 1d8+6 or 1d6+6) and two rakes if pouncing or grabbing.
So Rhino's still tougher, but his damage looks a bit on the down side in comparison to a tiger.
HOWEVER:
- Greater Magic Fang can be used more effectively, for a +2 at level 8, +3 at lvl 12 and so forth, while the tiger is stuck with a +1
- Likewise, Improved Natural Attack is much more impressive on the Rhino single attack, especially with Powerful Charge
- Same goes with power attack (x3 instead of x2).
- The Rhino will get another big attack at level 9 with multi-attack.
- The Rhino will be less impacted by DR.
- Strong Jaw, while not stacking with INA, gives one more size increase, which makes it now 6d6
- The Vital Strike line might help keeping it useful at later levels.
On the other hand, I don't see many ways to increase a tiger damage output, apart from a +1d6 amulet of mighty fist (+2d6 starts to be really pricey).
So at the cost of 2 feats (Power Attack and Improved Natural Attack), our level 7 Rhino can now hit for 3d6+19 and charge for 6d6+24, and will continue to improve.
Did I miss something ? Apart from the grab, if we're looking at raw dps, is the rhino better ?
Thanks a lot ;)
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Rhino might have the edge at lower levels, but the tiger will soon out damage him. The rhino will always be tougher and be better vs dr, but the pounce and grab of the tiger are just too good to give up. If it can charge, the enemy will be facing a large number of attacks plus possibly being grappled and suffering rake attacks while grappled. The downside to both is that they will be useless against inaccessible opponents, (Flying,etc.).
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I recommend Tiger over the Rhino.
However that only really works in a wilderness exploration game. I highly recommend you thing about something with a max size of medium. If your playing in any other type of game. Large animals look great until you spend most of your time underground or in buildings. Where large size is more of a hindrance.
While pounce is obviously hard to mess with, I will play devil's advocate for damage when you do get your attacks off.
While tigers get more attacks, single attack companions have special rules besides just the x1.5 one. Multiattack is not just the feat, and has spexial abilities. It grants companions with 1 or 2 attacks with an pseudo iterative. As it: 1 more use of that attack per round at BAB-5.
Note: from what I can tell from stat blocks, you keep the 1.5, making you competitive to the bite/claw/claw (1.5x2 vs. 1x3; both are basically x3).
So with that iterative, you are more of a 2 hander than anything. So you can build a powerful 2 hander build for that. The more attacks you can squeeze out, the better your x1.5 gets in comparison (since your extra attack will be bigger).
So good methods of getting mroe attacks:
-haste, obviously.
-intimidate build once you get 3 int. With cornugon smash and hurtful, you can get a swift action attack. That especially helps to somewhat reduce pounce advantage (...slightly; still in tiger's favor). Problem: you need to invest all skill points into intimidate, and even then you are kind of 'meh'.
-reach build. Unfortunately, this doesn't come naturally to rhinos, so you might need something like longarm and the like. MUCH better for single attack eidlons, admittedly (since they can be large bipeds, and also grab the reach evo for their slam or bite)
You never have to increase the size of your companion. You can instead choose to keep them at the current size and increase their stats.
Doesn't that option replace their entire advancement, including gaining stuff like pounce and powerful charge?
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
AFAICT that option pretty much always sucks, nice though it can be to stay Medium. :-(
arn't tigers large(long) creatures when they become large so they would take up a 5x10 square?
That distinction didn't make it into Pathfinder, which has no notion of facing. Large creatures are 10x10, period.
I recommend Tiger over the Rhino.
However that only really works in a wilderness exploration game. I highly recommend you thing about something with a max size of medium. If your playing in any other type of game. Large animals look great until you spend most of your time underground or in buildings. Where large size is more of a hindrance.
Reduce animal is perfect for that. Level 2 spell, hours/level, and a resized large animal is still better than a medium one to begin with ^^
Rhino might have the edge at lower levels, but the tiger will soon out damage him.
Well, that's my point: people seem to think tiger is better, but my number crunching doesn't show this. Tiger has pounce, but Rhino has powerful charge (and later the vital strike line, one extra attack when full attacking, bigger haste benefit and a much better DR management).
Tiger has grab, though.
What is your number crunching. I have never sat down and down the math to prove the tiger is the best. I just went with what I thought would likely be the best, which is the same as what almost everyone else came up with.
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What is your number crunching. I have never sat down and down the math to prove the tiger is the best. I just went with what I thought would likely be the best, which is the same as what almost everyone else came up with.
At level 10, let's assume they both have GMF on (because why not, it's hours/level). They both got improved natural attack (bite for tiger, gore for rhino)
Tiger: Bite +13 for 2d6+8, 2 Claws +13 for 1d6+8, 2 rake +13 for 1d6+8
With Power attack, it's +11 for 2d6+12/1d6+12
Target AC is 24, standard AC for level 10.
So on a pounce (+2 to hit on a charge), average damage is 0,55*(15+11,5*2+11,5*2)= 33,55 without PA and 0,45*(19+15,5*2+15,5*2)=36,45 with PA.
Against a mere 5 DR, our damage go down to 25,2 with PA
Against 10DR, we're down to 13,95 with PA.
On a regular round, average damage is 0,45*(15+11,5x2)=17,1 or 0,35x(19+15,5*2)=17,5 with PA against no DR
Against DR 5: 12,25 DPR
Against DR 10: 7 DPR
Now let's see how our Rhino's doing.
Rhino: Gore +15/+10 (with +2 magic fang) for 3d6+14
With Power attack, it's +13/+8 for 3d6+20
While Powerful Charging, it's +17 for 6d6+18
While Powerful Charging and Power attacking, it's +15 for 6d6+24
So on a charge, average damage is 0,65*39=25,3 and 0,55*45=24,75 with PA
Against 5DR, that's 22 damage (with PA)
Against 10DR, that's 19,25 damage (with PA)
On a regular round, average damage is 0,55*24,5+0,3*24,5=20,8 against no DR
Against DR 5: 15,6 DPR
Against DR 10: 13,3 DPR
And then, there's also the Vital Strike line, that will let you punch through DR easier.
TL,DR: On a pounce against no DR opponents, the tiger is clearly better. But monsters with DR are the exception at higher levels, and charging every round isn't always doable and/or a good idea (lower AC, opportunity attack, positioning). When there's no charging involved, or when DR comes into the equation, the Rhino (or any One-Hitter, really) comes ahead - while also being more sturdy.
I think the tiger is still ahead until the vital strike feats come into play on a full build, but then we have to determine how much buffing is in play, and how much the player is able and willing to spend on gear for his companion.
From actual play experience a buffed tiger can do enough damage to take out APL=CR enemies on its own.
Why would you give the tiger Improved Natural Attack on its bite? It's much more interesting to buff the claws, either with INA or just Weapon Focus to improve to-hit rate.
Because INA on claws makes it 1d8 instead of 1d6, hence a +1 damage increase. Even with two claws, that's only +2.
INA on bite makes it a 2d6 instead of 1d8, hence a +2,5 damage increase.
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Lemme run through your math. Not saying you're wrong, I just wanna work it out for myself.
I'm assuming the ability score increases at 4 and 8 HD go into something else than Str, like Int 3 so as to use some ore magic items and feats perhaps, or to round out odd Con fractions. In addition, I'm ignoring critical hits and hitting on 1/20.
I'll use your AC 24 benchmark cuz that sounds reasonable. Now a tiger to a L10 PC would have 24 Str (+7) and BAB +6. We add in the GMF for a +2 and we end up with the +15 to hit. Against AC 24 that would let us hit on a 9, so a hit rate of 60%. If we activate PA it drops to 50%.
Now the base damage is 1d6+9 or 1d6+13 with PA for a claw, d8 for the bite. That gives us an expected damage output of 0.6*(4.5 + 9 + 2 * (3.5 + 9)) = 23.1
PA gives us 0.5*(4.5+13 + 2*(3.5+13)) = 25.25; it's kind of underwhelming against "medium" AC.
If we use INA on the bite, it increases by 0.6*2.5 = 1.5 or 0.5*2.5 = 1.25; if we use INA on the claws it increases by 0.6*2*1 = 1.2 or 0.5*2*1 = 1.
Then let's look at the Pounce case. Since we already established a slight gain for using PA even without the +2 to hit from charging, I'm only looking at using PA now. It gets us 0.6*(4.5+13 + 4*(3.5+13)) = 50.1; almost double the normal on a full attack.
Now let's see how Pounce does with INA-bite and INA-claw;
BITE 0.6*2.5 = 1.5
CLAW 0.6*4*1 = 2.4
I'm still not sold on INA here. Let's instead consider the effects of Weapon Focus on claws. A +1 to hit here improves the claws' to-hit chance by 5%. And we're again using PA.
FULL 0.5*(4.5+13) + 0.55*2*(3.5+13) = 26.9
POUNCE 0.6*(4.5+13) + 0.65*2*(3.5+13) = 53.4
Weapon Focus comes out slightly ahead of INA against an enemy with AC 24 and no DR. Against an enemy with lower AC, or with DR, INA would perform better. However, I think Weapon Focus is a superior choice because it both helps against enemies with higher AC, and boosts the chance of hampering an enemy with a successful Grab.
Another issue is how often Pounce comes into play. It's true that it won't be every round, but I think it's still pretty often. The vast majority of combats starts out at more than 10ft after all. And also, in any combat against multiple enemies, the tiger can pounce to the assistance of any teammates fighting remaining enemies after it deals with its current foe. Also, improving your tiger's initiative will increase it's chances to pounce.
Finally, I'd say the buffs you're considering are conservative. It's not out of the realm of possibility to give your tiger a +2 strength belt by level 10, which will do a lot more for it than it does on the rhino.
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My top choices for animal companions, based on what I've seen so far, and excluding dinos, would be:
- Tiger: DPR
- Constrictor snake: grabbing enemies can totally derail their plans
- Roc: high mobility, great AC, good attacks, but poor HP.
- Mastodon: monster trample doesn't care about enemy HP. Becomes hilarious if you make it bigger than Large.
- Giant Chameleon/Gecko: wall-crawling mount, which helps in space-constrained dungeons or against enemies without ranged/aerial options.
You never have to increase the size of your companion. You can instead choose to keep them at the current size and increase their stats.Doesn't that option replace their entire advancement, including gaining stuff like pounce and powerful charge?
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.AFAICT that option pretty much always sucks, nice though it can be to stay Medium. :-(
Agile AoM and I can guarantee the small cat (the one actually starting small) will go nuts.
Hunter might want a single attack companion more. Several reasons
-they have teamwork feats that could give it more AoOs. The big hit companions get more out of every extra attack than the many small hits companions.
-A melee hunter REALLY wants the companion to be in flanking position. That is pretty much the main attack bonus they get as a class: they have an extra body on the field devoted solely to helping them be better. Getting into flanking position is more about "move action+standard action attack" rather than "charge+pounce/full attack".
I've always liked this comparison.
I've always liked this comparison.
Interesting list. Has anyone updated it to take the new animal companion options into account?
Hunter might want a single attack companion more. Several reasons
-they have teamwork feats that could give it more AoOs. The big hit companions get more out of every extra attack than the many small hits companions.
-A melee hunter REALLY wants the companion to be in flanking position. That is pretty much the main attack bonus they get as a class: they have an extra body on the field devoted solely to helping them be better. Getting into flanking position is more about "move action+standard action attack" rather than "charge+pounce/full attack".
hunter only needs pack flanking so you are always flanking, then mobility is not an issue.
Also you might need to go back and re-check the maths somewhat counter-intuitively kitty cats should get an extra attack from multi-attack too.
Hunter might want a single attack companion more. Several reasons
-they have teamwork feats that could give it more AoOs. The big hit companions get more out of every extra attack than the many small hits companions.
-A melee hunter REALLY wants the companion to be in flanking position. That is pretty much the main attack bonus they get as a class: they have an extra body on the field devoted solely to helping them be better. Getting into flanking position is more about "move action+standard action attack" rather than "charge+pounce/full attack".hunter only needs pack flanking so you are always flanking, then mobility is not an issue.
Also you might need to go back and re-check the maths somewhat counter-intuitively kitty cats should get an extra attack from multi-attack too.
...that is strange.
Even with liberal construction, and assuming that I haven't missed an errata, the ability doesn't make references to differentiate primary and secondary attacks, just " doesn't have three requisite attacks".
The previous reading makes more general sense from a design perspective, since the multiattack would, as noted, allow single attack companions to even begin to be viewed as viable for damage compared to the ones... like tiger running around with 5 (since that would turn a 'close gap' into 'you only deal half the damage').
While I am generally in favor of supporting dev comments, I (in my own personal perspective, at lest) am force to view this as a mistep due to the language, general appearant design purpose, and the few applicable examples of mount stat blocks I could find (since horses would fall into similar category as tigers for this; of the ones on level 9 or above users, I saw no iterative on the, while I saw it on the single attack users).
It seems more of a momentary "I'd rather not have an ability do nothing" based comment made on the spot.
...I mean, imagine what this does for eidolons. They also share this ability, and this would allow them to max out their attacks far more easily.
Why would you give the tiger Improved Natural Attack on its bite? It's much more interesting to buff the claws, either with INA or just Weapon Focus to improve to-hit rate.Because INA on claws makes it 1d8 instead of 1d6, hence a +1 damage increase. Even with two claws, that's only +2.
INA on bite makes it a 2d6 instead of 1d8, hence a +2,5 damage increase.
Unless you factor in the Rake attacks. Those are explicitly claws, so you would be getting a net +4 damage from INA claw.