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Ok, let's assume that the player (moi) is planning on playing a Grave Walker Witch.
Clearly at lvl 4, this character would get the spell Command Undead which as we can all see IS in fact a lvl 2 Arcane spell. Since the Witch already casts Divine spells as well, that means at 4th level this character can cast lvl 2 Arcane & Divine spells.
Now, the Mystic Theurge entry CLEARLY states that a character MUST be able to cast both 2nd level Arcane and Divine spells.
This Archetype does this already.
The whole point of a Mystic Theurge is to kind of get spells from two classes, so OBVIOUSLY the goal would be to take an Arcane class at Character Level 5, then enter the PRC at 6.
Is this legal?
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Any spell cast by a divine caster is a divine spell. This archetype does not allow one to qualify as both an arcane and a divine caster.
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Any spell cast by a divine caster is a divine spell. This archetype does not allow one to qualify as both an arcane and a divine caster.
That's where the hangup is. Gotcha, thank you for the clarification.
I wonder why that isn't standard, as I have read that innate spell casting granted via racial traits (like Tieflings) can get early entry into MT PRC?
Not anymore, that was FAQed. SLAs can no longer be used for prereqs. The only early entry trick I know of is using Equipment Trick, and that's dubious at best (and definitely not PFS legal).
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For the sake of accuracy, witches are arcane casters, not divine.
Not anymore, that was FAQed. SLAs can no longer be used for prereqs. The only early entry trick I know of is using Equipment Trick, and that's dubious at best (and definitely not PFS legal).
Equipment trick?
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For the sake of accuracy, witches are arcane casters, not divine.
To continue this, Witches cast a few spells that appear on the Cleric list. The Cleric is a Divine spellcaster. Through the Cleric donations, they gain access to spells on the Wizard list, an Arcane spellcaster. The Cleric casts her domain spells as Divine spells, and the Witch casts all of her Witch spells as Arcane spells.
In all of Paizo's printing of Pathfinder RPG as a tabletop RPG system, they have not yet printed a class that casts as both arcane and divine. They have blurred the lines with some classes, but all classes are either one or the other.
As of 2016. If someone decides to necro this thread in 2020 I can't predict the content made in the next 4 years.
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Equipment trick?
If you take the Equipment Trick feat for the Sunrod, and have the ability to cast any Light descriptor spell, you get the following benefit:
Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness.
Since it is "for all purposes," you could argue it would let you meet the Mystic Theurge pre-reqs.
So a Wizard 4/Cleric 1 would use the feat to treat his Dancing Lantern spell (from Cleric) as 2nd level to qualify for Mystic Theurge.
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Equipment trick?If you take the Equipment Trick feat for the Sunrod, and have the ability to cast any Light descriptor spell, you get the following benefit:
Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness.Since it is "for all purposes," you could argue it would let you meet the Mystic Theurge pre-reqs.
So a Wizard 4/Cleric 1 would use the feat to treat his Dancing Lantern spell (from Cleric) as 2nd level to qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Given the prerequisites for that ability and how you use it I really wouldn't consider viable for early entry. Even less so than for why SLAs don't work.
It'd be two levels or so faster than without. I think when it comes to MT every level counts.
Given the prerequisites for that ability and how you use it I really wouldn't consider viable for early entry. Even less so than for why SLAs don't work.
Eh. I certainly think it is a more valid idea than SLA's ever where.
Maybe I am biased from a long 3.5 history (where the rule matched the current FAQ regarding SLA), but I never liked SLA meeting spellcasting requirements.
This method, you are actually casting a spell, and the 1st level spell is considered 2nd level "for all purposes," which you could interpret to include pre-reqs.
I don't know whether I think it should work, but based on the wording it looks like to does. {shrug}
I guess I don't have too much of a problem with it, since you are sacrificing a level of spellcasting in your "primary" class, and basically all class features for both classes, to get advance spellcasting in the second class, and Mystic Theurge has almost no class features itself.
Unlike in 3.5, there aren't any other PrC that have dual advancement to continue progressing both classes after finishing MT.
It'd be two levels or so faster than without. I think when it comes to MT every level counts.
Well, since it should apply to both classes simultaneously, you could get in 3 levels early.
Say, Fey bloodline Sorcerer 2/Feyspeaker Druid 1, using the feat to increase Dancing Lantern (Sorc) and Faerie Fire (Druid) both to 2nd level.
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Eh. I certainly think it is a more valid idea than SLA's ever where.
Eh, I just don't see it.
The requirements are to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.
The ET feat lets you, with an item, cast certain spells at higher levels. In this case light spells. Not arcane spells. Not divine spells. Just light spells. It's disqualified for the same reason the SLAs are, they let you cast certain spells of that level, not flat out all spells of that level.
And going off that it's not even a permanent ability, especially since the sunrod is used up for each use. So it's not even on the same level as using a belt of dexterity to qualify for TWF.
Eh. I certainly think it is a more valid idea than SLA's ever where.Eh, I just don't see it.
The requirements are to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.
The ET feat lets you, with an item, cast certain spells at higher levels. In this case light spells. Not arcane spells. Not divine spells. Just light spells. It's disqualified for the same reason the SLAs are, they let you cast certain spells of that level, not flat out all spells of that level.
That isn't what disqualified SLA. SLA don't work because they aren't spellcasting. This is spellcasting.
And it is arcane or divine. If you apply the benefit to an arcane spell, it is a higher level arcane spell. The same with divine casting. The spell doesn't stop being arcane or divine because it was modified any more than a Wizard's Empowered Fireball stops being arcane.
I like that this method isn't class or race dependent, like SLA were. Dancing Lantern, Flare Burst, and Faerie Fire covers almost all spellcasting classes, regardless of race.
The question rests on "for all purposes" meaning. If you think it will satisfy a 2nd level spell pre req then it works, if you don't then it doesn't. I doubt anything, bar a FAQ, will change someone's mind.
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Eh. I certainly think it is a more valid idea than SLA's ever where.Eh, I just don't see it.
The requirements are to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.
The ET feat lets you, with an item, cast certain spells at higher levels. In this case light spells. Not arcane spells. Not divine spells. Just light spells. It's disqualified for the same reason the SLAs are, they let you cast certain spells of that level, not flat out all spells of that level.
That isn't what disqualified SLA. SLA don't work because they aren't spellcasting. This is spellcasting.
And it is arcane or divine. If you apply the benefit to an arcane spell, it is a higher level arcane spell. The same with divine casting. The spell doesn't stop being arcane or divine because it was modified any more than a Wizard's Empowered Fireball stops being arcane.
I like that this method isn't class or race dependent, like SLA were. Dancing Lantern, Flare Burst, and Faerie Fire covers almost all spellcasting classes, regardless of race.
The question rests on "for all purposes" meaning. If you think it will satisfy a 2nd level spell pre req then it works, if you don't then it doesn't. I doubt anything, bar a FAQ, will change someone's mind.
The prerequisite isn't "able to cast 2nd level light spells" though.
And again, the increase isn't permanent, it's only when you use a sunrod to boost that specific spell. So what happens when you're out of sunrods? You no longer qualify so you lose all your prestige class abilities.
Unlike in 3.5, there aren't any other PrC that have dual advancement to continue progressing both classes after finishing MT.Evangelist
Hmm..
I have always been doubtful that you can use Evangelist to continue a Prestige Class beyond 10 levels.
So say you make a Cleric 2/Wizard 1, take MT 2, then jump into Evangelist (using the skill qualification) and go 9 levels and assign Aligned Class to MT.
You are Cleric 2/Wizard 1/MT 2/Evangelist 9
So you are effectively Cleric 2/Wizard 1/MT 10 plus the Evangelist stuff.
Can you take another level of MT, or even Evangelist advancing MT, since there are only 10 levels of it? I don't really see how, but would love to hear why it may be possible.
Also, in the spirit of MT shenanigans, obligatory mention of Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training faction rewards, for belonging to a Mage's Guild (Inner Sea Magic).
Eclectic Training (5 Fame)
Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can
cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame)
The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
The prerequisite isn't "able to cast 2nd level light spells" though.
The prerequisite is "able to cast 2nd level arcane/divine spells." You are casting a 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells. The fact is is a [Light] spell is irrelevant.
And saying you lose the pre-req when you run out of sunrods is like saying you lose the pre-req if you run out of 2nd level spell slots for the day. The requirement is the ability, which you continue to have even if it is currently exhausted.
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The prerequisite is "able to cast 2nd level arcane/divine spells." You are casting a 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells. The fact is is a [Light] spell is irrelevant.
actually it is relevant, and it's for this reason that SLA's don't work for early access. You're only casting specific spells of that level, not all the spells. Just like if you had a 2nd level SLA it wouldn't allow you into the class.
And saying you lose the pre-req when you run out of sunrods is like saying you lose the pre-req if you run out of 2nd level spell slots for the day. The requirement is the ability, which you continue to have even if it is currently exhausted.
No, because you can still know and can cast them, you're just out. You're using an outside source to buff yourself up. If you don't have any Sunrods you can't buff that single spell up, so you don't have any spells of that level period. Having the feat doesn't buff up all the spells you have. It buffs up ONE spell when you cast it.
The requirement is the ability to cast 2nd level spells, which this feat does not give you. It raises the level temporarily of one spell you cast. The sunrod is material component that gets used up on one spell, so being able to just cast Fairie Fire at 2nd level doesn't qualify you for the prestige class.
If you have 9 STR you don't qualify for Power Attack just because you can go buy potions of Bull Strength.
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Unlike in 3.5, there aren't any other PrC that have dual advancement to continue progressing both classes after finishing MT.Evangelist
The sensible argument against that is that there are no MT levels to attain beyond 10.
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Maybe I am biased from a long 3.5 history (where the rule matched the current FAQ regarding SLA), but I never liked SLA meeting spellcasting requirements.
3.5 had Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane, though.
actually it is relevant, and it's for this reason that SLA's don't work for early access. You're only casting specific spells of that level, not all the spells. Just like if you had a 2nd level SLA it wouldn't allow you into the class.
No, the SLA doesn't meet the pre-req because it isn't spellcasting, not because it is a specific spell.
A 4th level sorcerer only knows one 2nd level spell, but still meets the pre-req. A Universalist Wizard may only cast a single 2nd level spell per day, but meets the pre-req.
With Equipment Trick applies to more than a single spell (so you know more than one) and can be used multiple times per day (so you can cast more than one a day).
But all of that isn't relevant because you are still casting a 2nd level spell. The descriptor is irrelevant. SLA's aren't spellcasting, this is.
No, because you can still know and can cast them, you're just out. You're using an outside source to buff yourself up. If you don't have any Sunrods you can't buff that single spell up, so you don't have any spells of that level period. Having the feat doesn't buff up all the spells you have. It buffs up ONE spell when you cast it.
The requirement is the ability to cast 2nd level spells, which this feat does not give you. It raises the level temporarily of one spell you cast. The sunrod is material component that gets used up on one spell, so being able to just cast Fairie Fire at 2nd level doesn't qualify you for the prestige class.
If you have 9 STR you don't qualify for Power Attack just because you can go buy potions of Bull Strength.
I don't see this as equivalent to using Bull Strength to qualify for Power Attack at all. Though as a side note, you can use a Belt of Strength to qualify for PA just fine. It is not the sunrod that increases the spell level, it is the feat, which is a permanent aspect of your character.
As you note, it is just an additional material component. So you think a Wizard who loses his spell-component pouch, and therefore can't cast any of his 2nd level spells, also loses the pre-req for MT? Of course not.
Yes, you need the material component to cast the 2nd level spell. But that is not different that most spells.
If your Sorcerer has Transformation as his only 6th level spell, and doesn't have any potions of bull's strength he can't cast it, but he still meets a pre-req of casting 6th level spells.
3.5 had Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane, though.
Yeah, good times. And the Practiced Caster trick with Ultimate Magus. Fun stuff.
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"and can be used multiple times per day"
Not if they don't have any sunrods, and unlike knowing spells or being able to cast the spells aren't 2nd level. You don't have sunrods you don't have 2nd level spells.
Belt of Giant Strength is a permanent bonus, potion of Giant's Strength is not. You're spells are not permanently +1 level, when you cast one you can increase them at the time of casting.
"It is not the sunrod that increases the spell level"
Uh, yes it is. The feat doesn't increase the spell level by itself, the spells aren't permanently increased. You use a sunrod for each spell to buff that specific casting of that spell. No sunrod, no increased spell level.
"So you think a Wizard who loses his spell-component pouch, and therefore can't cast any of his 2nd level spells"
The wizard still has and knows their 2nd level spells, even if they're prevented from casting them. You're using a single item to buff ONE casting of one spell.
"Yes, you need the material component to cast the 2nd level spell."
You need the material to "have" the 2nd level spell in the first place.
"If your Sorcerer has Transformation as his only 6th level spell, and doesn't have any potions of bull's strength he can't cast it, but he still meets a pre-req of casting 6th level spells."
Correct. Because the sorcerer actually knows a 6th level spell.
Just having an option to occasionally boost your spells doesn't mean you actually know a higher level spell.
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Like I said earlier, no one is going to change their minds regarding this.
stuff
Nope. The feat provides the bonus, when using the required material component. The source of the bonus is still the feat.
I will go even further. Since the requirement is only the "ability," it DOES NOT MATTER if he ever has any sunrods, or casts a Light spell as 2nd level spell. He has the ABILITY to cast the spell as a 2nd level spell. That is all the requirement checks for.
As for everything else in your post. Let's take a look at the pre-req and what it actually says.
Able to cast 2nd level divine spells and 2nd level arcane spells
So a Wiz 2/Cleric 1 with Equipment Trick can cast Dancing Lantern (and Snapdragon Fireworks, and Flash Burst) as a 2nd level arcane spell from his Wizard class, and a 2nd level divine spell from his Cleric class.
Done, he meets that requirement.
It doesn't say he must "know" a 2nd level spell. It doesn't say he must "have second level spell slots." It doesn't say anything except "able to cast 2nd level arcane/divine spells."
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This might work. It is not early entry, but it keeps your wizard levels at -1 total level...if it works
Get to casting level 4 spells, take feat "Faith Magic" http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arca ne-discoveries-paizo/faith-magic
You can now cast a divine spell at level 2 (Costs a lvl 3 slot, but it is DIVINE). Taka a cleric level
Go into Mystic Thurge
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^That's crazy enough that it just might work, although I wonder if it gets disqualified because it isn't general divine spellcasting, but just 1 spell, similar to the situation in which you have a divine spell-like ability.
Is AngryWiggles still anywhere around? I wonder if Paizo really did accidentally create an early entry for divine casting prestige classes (although normally you would only want to use it for Mystic Theurge)? If so, it will probably get FAQ'ed out . . . .
Well it you'd need to be 5th level to grab a 1st level spell which would be prepared in a 2nd level slot. But the wording is "using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell's actual level." So it could be ruled to still be a 1st level spell, similiar to metamagic level adjustment, or prepping lower level spells in higher level slots. So you would need to be a 7th level wizard to actaully get a second level divine spell, and the take a cleric level, before going MT. Only one off level from wizard, but not starting till 9th overall.
So at 18th level, you'd be a Mystic Theurge 9, have 9th level wizard spells and 5th level cleric spells (and get to 6th level cleric spells at 19th level.)
Admittedly, you lose *very* little (and arguably, a 1-level dip into cleric for a couple domain powers can be pretty nice.) But I wonder how valuable it would even be to get cleric spells so very far behind the curve. Still, this method does certainly seem to be the least disruptive by a longshot.
Personally, I really like Samasboy's method, but our group just turned Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training into feats (with Esoteric Training being available exclusively to Mystic Theurges by adding the Combined Spells class feature to our feat's prerequisites.) Less disruptive/bigger investment than just handing out those bonuses "for free" per the Spellcasting Guild rules, though we still haven't had anyone jump on a MT so far.
Like I said, it is not early entry (it actually delays entry by 2 levels), but it does solve what seems to be the biggest problem. If you take the right archetype on cleric you can actually get +2 casting levels bonus on your spells. Admittedly you are still way behind on the cleric side of things, but if you focus on the right spells that should be a minor issue. Mage for attack/debuff, Cleric for Buff/Heal
You won't be the party cleric, more like a backup/buffer
What book is the mystic society rules in BTW
For me, the false priest is pretty much the ultimate mystic theurge. Single class, nets you up to 8th level divine spells (without wish), and all it requires is keeping loads of scrolls (or other one-use "divine" items) on-hand (which are very easy to replace, if something happens).
The main issue is sorcerer spells known (for which we have paragon surge spell or pages of spell knowledge items) and delayed "entry" as it were: waiting until 9th level to gain access to False Channel (so you can start using divine scrolls or potions without using them up by expending spell slots).
What's nice is that if you can get scrolls of divine spells that are on arcane lists, you can effectively avoid learning spells that would show up on the divine lists, and thus becoming (even more) extremely versatile. You'll miss out on low-tier domain powers and some very minor attack boosts or fortitude (maybe a point or two, total?) but otherwise be solidly ahead or with the game.
The one downside is that it doesn't use your caster level; you might want to slowly pay for an upgraded caster level (depending on the spell) and avoid DC-based spells... but that's more or less what you'd be doing with a Mystic Theurge anyway, and it's still a really solid boon.