As the title says.
Basically, I'm going to have most of my relevant feats and abilities with my 5th level Bolt Ace, specializing in an Underwater Heavy Crossbow. The problem I have is that I don't know what I'm going to do afterward.
I'm also our group's trapspotter/disarmer. My biggest worry was dealing with magical traps, and having to shoehorn my class choice based on the ability to disarm them really sucks. Thankfully, the GM is going to let me pick a trait that lets me disarm magic traps, and treats Disable Device as a class skill. (Basically, the Trapfinder Campaign Trait.) So, I won't be forced to dip a Rogue level (or 4), or have to pick up the Urban Ranger archetype.
I would prefer little to no spells (or anything associated with spells) to enforce character flavor, and to maintain full BAB (because I'm our only full BAB character in the party, multiclassing into something that isn't seems like setting ourselves up for failure).
I would like to obtain Point Blank Master eventually (or a similar equivalent), so that I don't have to worry about dealing with enemies being in my face, because Snap Shot feats just aren't enough, but the GM would also probably expect me to play something different; something that the group (or even I) haven't heard of or played before.
I mean, I always could go the full Bolt Ace, but the only real reason I'd want to (the Signature Deed), won't apply to my Sharp Shoot Deed, and I won't have any other good deeds to spend Grit on (because they otherwise all suck, and I'll have the bases covered well before then).
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So, for those who are TL;DR, here are my big questions:
1. What full-BAB spell-less class should I work into, that we don't know about? Archetypes should be welcome, but prefer to not have dead features, and no 3PP stuff. (Nothing personal, just expect the GM to be more willing to accept Paizo stuff than 3PP stuff.)
2. Is Point Blank Master a real concern I'll want to work on, or should I just not worry about it and focus on other things? If it is, how would you go about taking it?
Originally I was going to suggest going into the good trap alchemist archetype. but you want full bab and such.
How much do you move around? If you wanted to be a turret you could take that sentinal prestige..
Honestly just seems like a varient of fighter or slayer sounds like the best bet to me. it opens enough abilities that boost you and all.
i don't know much about PBM though
It's a flavor thing man. I'm designed to be an "ultimate sniper" sort of character, using a Crossbow because the whole "guns" thing isn't exactly invented yet (nor probably intended for the current AP we're running).
At 1st level, I can only 5-foot step because it takes my Move Action to reload. Thankfully, I haven't had to deal with any major movements yet. By 3rd level, I can reload as a Free Action (Crossbow Mastery feat), meaning I can move and shoot regularly, and in instances where I don't need to move, I can use Rapid Shot as a Full Round and get 2 attacks.
The problem I have with the prestige class is that it's too deity-oriented; having the ability to gain Fighter-specific feats helps me in taking Point Blank Master, but that's about all it's good for.
I really wanted to play with the Slayer, as Studied Target is nice, but Sneak Attack just does not work with ranged weapons. At all. Unless they're flat-footed (which is impossible to work at a range outside of the beginning of combat), it's not happening.
Point Blank Master basically lets you shoot enemies that threaten you without provocation, and it applies to the weapon you have Weapon Specialization with (which incidentally requires Fighter levels to get). There's always the Ranger bonus feats, though that won't be available until 11th level, and I'd like to take it a little sooner than that.
When I went Bolt Ace, I then took 5 levels of Urban Ranger (city location, fit the character, and I was also dabbling in the traps like you), which gave me a couple castings of Gravity Bow a day and CLW wand access. I ignored the spells otherwise. Then I just went vanilla fighter for the rest of the levels. If you don't want the ranger, just go fighter.
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A 4 (or more!)-level dip into Luring Cavalier could be fun. Horseback Archery is very powerful and master trainer lets you pick up that feat that lets your mount scale fully. Two more feats would let you upgrade it to a Gryphon you can fly on.
It is a bit of a feat investment, admittedly, when you're already going for crossbow shooting. I have to agree with Heymitch that Slayer is probably the best class for straight up killing.
I would go slayer.
Weapon Master for earliest possible advanced weapon training? The Crossbow group gets the best Versatile Training (BAB ranks in Perception and Stealth).
I think Crossbow Fighter can be pretty fun. Good bonuses to readied action which would make me want to make a Vital Strike spell disrupting build. I am a bit biased though.
I think Crossbow Fighter can be pretty fun. Good bonuses to readied action which would make me want to make a Vital Strike spell disrupting build. I am a bit biased though.
Too bad it's based off of readied actions (which is meh), and I already get full Dexterity to damage rolls with Crossbows via Bolt Ace at 5th level (which won't stack with Crossbow Fighter).
@ Ryzoken: We'd be using the Unchained Barbarian rules, meaning Urban Barbarian doesn't apply. If it does, it's pretty gimped either way. The Rage bonuses (as well as things like Accurate Stance) are still pretty nice. Savage Technologist wouldn't really stack or work with Crossbows, so...
@ PossibleCabbage: Though that shores up the skill loss I'd be dealing with, I'm already putting max ranks into those skills, so it's not really doing me any good.
@ wraithstrike: Problem I have with Slayer is that Sneak Attack is basically a dead feature for anything ranged-related. You have zero reliability to apply Sneak Attack outside of a surprise round or winning initiative in the first round of combat (likely for me, but still not a guarantee). There's also the matter of having a dead 2nd level combat style because the only options I could feasibly take are Far Shot (which is meh), and Focused Shot (which is completely garbage), but the 6th level one (Point Blank Master) and the 10th level one (Improved Precise Shot) are both still good.
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What about Ranger with either the Divine Marksman or Skirmisher archetypes? Some factors in favor of these choices:
1. Both archetypes trade out spells.
2. If you choose the Crossbow style, you can use the 2nd level combat style feat for something good (the Crossbow style 2nd level picks are: Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Focused Shot, and Rapid Reload). Heck, even if you already have all of those feats, you can retrain the original feats you took into something else.
3. Both archetypes give some nice boosts to ranged combat styles.
3a. The Divine Marksman adds half your favored enemy bonus to attacks rolls and damage rolls on all ranged attacks, as yields some other goodies as well.
3b. The Skirmisher gets to choose from a long list of hunter tricks, including:
Defensive Bow Stance (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a swift action. Until the start of his next turn, his ranged attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Distracting Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.
Hobbling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack’s land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.
Divine Marksman seems promising. The whole "half favored enemy" stuff is really neat, even if it takes me 9th level to get it (because to be fair, I dislike Favored Enemy as a feature; too situational and it becomes crazygood or useless. WTB Inquisitor's Bane feature, where I can apply Bane for whatever I'm fighting, PST price).
Skirmisher is something that a previous player already did, so I'd prefer not to.
Even with ranged sneak attack being meh, I would go slayer. You keep skill points and BAB up, slayer talents might as well be feats for most purposes, studied target is nice. Sniper or stygian archetype can give you some nice boosts to your sniper motif, and once on a while you will get that litle damage boost from sneak attack.
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If you're going to be playing to higher levels, mutation warrior gets you both a mutagen and weapon training, plus access to fighter feats. And the loss of armor training is less severe for a Dex build. Adding in a level of Urban Bloodrager gets you some pretty significant bonuses to both hit and damage, though you'll likely want extra rage at some point. But, like I said, that's assuming you're playing at level 11+ which I've found doesn't happen too much unless you're playing with a pretty stable group.
With regards to slayer, you could always pick up the Empty Quiver Style feat chain, which makes you threaten with ranged weapons, allowing you to flank with your crossbow (and therefore get your sneak attacks that way.)
ADDENDUM: It's also just a generally useful style for a ranged character anyway, and you'll naturally be picking up all of the prerequisites.
I really wanted to play with the Slayer, as Studied Target is nice, but Sneak Attack just does not work with ranged weapons. At all. Unless they're flat-footed (which is impossible to work at a range outside of the beginning of combat), it's not happening.
Vigilante with the Cunning Feint and Sniper talents. Then take the Ranged Feint feat in there somewhere.
You give up your first attack in a full-attack (or a move action), but then you can sneak attack from as far away as you can shoot.
4 levels of fighter (weapon master) gets you weapon training 1 and 1 Advanced weapon training feat that you can use for warrior spirit.
The Warrior Spirit is a pretty nice idea, and actually fits thematically with my specially crafted crossbow: Altair, the Eagle's Shriek. Although I personally dislike abilities like Warrior Spirit towards the endgame, having an effect like that to supplement my character options is pretty nice, since we almost never have reached anything more than +2 weapons in most all our games.
I could also qualify for Point Blank Master as early as 9th level with the Fighter levels, even though Weapon Specialization would be required; still, lacking static damage bonuses as a Crossbow specialist bites, and Weapon Specialization helps out with that a lot.
The killers are 2 skill points/level, worse saves, and a lot of dead features for just a better Weapon Training progression (which isn't horrible, but let's be realistic, there can be better class features than +1 to attack and damage, Advanced Weapon Training and all, even though Bravery sucks and Armor Training for me is kind of meh). It's certainly an option to consider, thanks!
@ Java Man: BAB and skill points are always good. Slayer Talents are kind of meh until 6th level, where I get the talents I really want. As others have suggested, retraining feats to take advantage of my combat style is a big boon to not having to waste a 2nd level combat style feat on basically garbage (though whether the GM will let me is a whole different matter). Studied Target is nice; a lot better than Favored Enemy (though Divine Marksman fixes that problem for the most part). Sniper archetype with Far Shot would make me actually have 0 penalty for firing into as far as three range increments (~360 feet with a Heavy Crossbow), which is hilarious.
Adding your level to sneak attack damage helps too, but we're again stuck with "ranged sucks for applying Sneak Attack." If I can't reliably apply Sneak Attack with a Ranged Weapon (seriously, the only thing off the top of my head is Improved Invisibility), it's basically a dead feature that's usable for at-best one round of combat. That's stupid, especially considering Sneak Attack is a feature that, if not reasonably invested, dies out in effectiveness real fast. I'm not expecting 10D6, but if I'm getting no more than 4D6 from this, then I should really consider Ranger instead, since at least then I won't have (a significantly) dead feature(s).
As a side question, does the 2nd level ability replace your 2nd level Slayer Talent? The D20 site says it does, but it makes no such mention on the PRD; I'm inclined to say yes, since that's probably what it is.
@ Deighton Thrane: If I was going for a purely optimized standpoint, I'd definitely consider taking those options; Mutagens are overpowered and require little to no investment on the player's part. (Makes 1 level Alchemist dips amazing for certain classes.) Unfortunately, the players would see right through that and call me out for being a cheesing powergamer (which I kind of am, but still).
@ Gulthor: Hmmm, interesting. That actually makes me wading into melee without diverting resources (and still having ranged versatility) a viable thing. I'd also qualify for Point Blank Master via the style feats at 11th level (as I presumed would probably happen), and any ranged-reliant abilities apply to those melee attacks. Wow, that is something very important to consider, thank you!
As a bonus question for you, would you believe that the Snap Shot feats are worth it? (Specifically, Improved Snap Shot.) To be honest, the only reason I'd take the feats is for the 10 feet threatening range, but since I don't have to worry about enemies attacking me (or me shooting enemies with a larger/invisible creature threatening my attacks) with Point Blank Master and the Empty Quiver feats, it doesn't seem particularly worth it.
@ All: So here's what I've come up with from the suggestions with you guys:
Sniper Slayer (with Empty Quiver Style feats)
Weapon Master Fighter (with Advanced Weapon Training feats)
Divine Marksmen Ranger
It's not much, but it's definitely something that I can propose to my players to suggest that I dip into. The best part is, with the extra race points we were given (every PC got 15 race points to spend), I get 2 favored classes, so whatever I decide to progress next, will gain full Favored Class benefits. Thanks so much for the advice (so far)! I'm still open to suggestions, as we won't be hitting 6th level for a while yet (we'll be hitting 2nd level by the next session), so keep sending them, and I'll consider them carefully!
It looks like the sniper slayer should be trading out the 2nd level talent, but this is never state, as written it is a flat upgrade.
Slayer talents, in addition to the ranger combat style picks, you can get trap spotter, combat training and weapon training from rogue talents, and if blood reading is not too meta for you it can be quite handy.
Again, it's only the D20 site that says it's a substitution, but the PRD just gives it to me and doesn't say it replaces the 2nd level talent. But, considering I get a 2nd level talent, and it's an ability that's gained at 2nd level, it seems fairly obvious that it's intended to be a substitution.
Trapspotter would be pointless, as I'd be grabbing the Trapfinder Campaign Trait (GM gave the OK on this) via our "special points" system (which rewards players for out-of-the-box thinking, accomplishing encounters, and other similar activities). Combat Training is still useful, since bonus feats are always nice.
We abolished Weapon Focus/Shield Focus (and their greater counterparts) as feats; they don't exist, nor do they serve as pre-requisites for feats that require them. This cuts down on the fact that they're basically feat taxes that give bonuses.
Blood Reader doesn't seem like a meta ability; if anything, that's very unique (something the group would prefer), and helps stop the ideal that our GM always says a creature "is hurting" (which our other players use as an invitation for a rather inappropriate rhyming joke)...having an exact note as to how much life a target has left is a big boon as well, as it would tell me how to distribute my attacks if we have more than one focus target.
Also, it appears I've found a major flaw with the Empty Quiver feat chain, and that's with it being a melee attack.
Sure, I get Dexterity to Damage as a class feature with my Crossbow with the 2nd Empty Quiver feat, meaning I'm still Dexterity-based that way, but I do not get Dexterity to hit with a Crossbow as a class feature or feat, meaning that it still uses Strength to attack (which is only a 10, and is effectively a -4 to hit at this stage).
The only way I can think of to get Dexterity to Attack is by picking up the Weapon Finesse feat, and attaching an Effortless Lace to my Crossbow (and therefore treating it as a Light weapon, meaning I can Finesse with it), though I'd prefer not to spend 5,000 gold and have the risk of the GM screwing with it and having me constantly spending 5,000 gold just to maintain my melee effectiveness.
The ability that Deadly Sniper replaced did replace a talent, so it's assumed that the omission of replacing the talent was a mistake. Still, the current text says what it says, so enjoy the free talent while it lasts. But don't get all indignant when it gets taken away in a couple years.