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October 13, 2016
I know a lot of folks have been waiting for my response and I want to thank everyone for their support and restraint regarding this matter.
Not particularly. After the last bit of vitriol you posted that was subsequently (for good reason) deleted, I got this far and stopped.
I'm sure so that the RVC could make his statement, as his was the only viewpoint that hadn't yet been memorialized.
You want the old version? I memorialized it.
The Paizo response was sufficiently, reasonably, and well presented in Tonya's post. The RVC had a chance to respond and blew it to the point the post was deleted and the thread locked. At this point I think it's a forfeited opportunity and as this thread was adequately addressed by Tonya it should have died right there. I too support re-locking this train-wreck.
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Well hell. Don't this just beat the bends?... Is that a local colloquialism? If so, what particular context pertains to it?
The nearest my Google search found was a marketing blog from 2010 pertaining to competitive advertising, particularly as regards car commercials by BMW and Mercedes Benz. Is that the context?
bewilderment
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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October 13, 2016
I know a lot of folks have been waiting for my response and I want to thank everyone for their support and restraint regarding this matter.
Not particularly. After the last bit of vitriol you posted that was subsequently (for good reason) deleted, I got this far and stopped.
I'm sure so that the RVC could make his statement, as his was the only viewpoint that hadn't yet been memorialized.You want the old version? I memorialized it.
The Paizo response was sufficiently, reasonably, and well presented in Tonya's post. The RVC had a chance to respond and blew it to the point the post was deleted and the thread locked. At this point I think it's a forfeited opportunity and as this thread was adequately addressed by Tonya it should have died right there. I too support re-locking this train-wreck.
Yes, the original version of Del's comments were posted in anger. Instead of complaining about it in this thread, I called him out on it in a private message. It looks like he thought better of his words and revised his response.
We all have had to apologize to Chris at one point or another. I urge you to forgive those that learn their lessons and strive to post productively.
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I think it is foolish to lock threads like this until they become filled with attacks. Paizo Great job on handling this!
If you lock a thread that people are passionate about you lock up their emotions. Then they brew and fester and become infections that are much worse later. A coordinator can influence a great amount of people.
You do not deal with intolerance with intolerance because you are then intolerant and a hypocrite. Which is worse. You deal with it by the means Paizo presented here. With compassion and mutual understanding. Ignorance should not be punished but corrected with wisdom.
Although as the majority of people presented this is something you should not make an attack like presented. I do not agree with the OPs means of calling out the person. But because that person made a mistake again does not mean the best solution is to handle with admonishment.
I think Hmm's posts show wisdom of how people should react to these type of solutions as well. Hmm you deserve notice for this and a thank you.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Well that thread is a roller-coaster ride. Glad its over but also glad I took the time to read through this beast because it made me realize something.
Everybody, at some point, gets really worked up over what honestly boils down to a volunteer hobby. A non-competitive volunteer hobby I might add, which means 90% of the issues regarding it are among the least important things in existence. Though sometimes that's hard to remember, just because of how much time we sink into PFS.
I encourage everyone, myself included, to keep this in mind when passionately clacking away at our keyboards.
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Venture-Agent, Missouri—St. Louis
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Well if this debacle has taught us anything: Don't go to the boards to resolve an official dispute.
I think that's a pretty awful lesson to draw from this. If anything, it's wait for the whole story, post everything in its appropriate context, and give campaign leadership a bit more credit. Heck, even "do your research before jumping in" would be a good lesson to draw, if glancing at Warhorn signups could have prevented this whole thread.
The boards are great for getting second opinions and asking questions about PFS policies, and Tonya, Paizo staff, and the VO community are one of the most responsive and open game companies I've had the pleasure of dealing with. There's the occasional hiccup to be sure, but never anything that's lead me to question their professionalism.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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I just have 1 question .. and Im not trying to start a fire here
in my experience of Convention events - scenarios don't go out until around T minus 10 days... how did they even get the scenario at the 3 week mark ...
We're trying to get the convention support procedure more streamlined, so scenarios will go out faster. Work in progress!
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We're trying to get the convention support procedure more streamlined, so scenarios will go out faster. Work in progress!I just have 1 question .. and Im not trying to start a fire here
in my experience of Convention events - scenarios don't go out until around T minus 10 days... how did they even get the scenario at the 3 week mark ...
cool .. thank for the answer ... and good to know
I know that has been a long time complaint from a lot of Con GM's ... just not enough time to prep
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Well if this debacle has taught us anything: Don't go to the boards to resolve an official dispute.I think that's a pretty awful lesson to draw from this. If anything, it's wait for the whole story, post everything in its appropriate context, and give campaign leadership a bit more credit. Heck, even "do your research before jumping in" would be a good lesson to draw, if glancing at Warhorn signups could have prevented this whole thread.
The boards are great for getting second opinions and asking questions about PFS policies, and Tonya, Paizo staff, and the VO community are one of the most responsive and open game companies I've had the pleasure of dealing with. There's the occasional hiccup to be sure, but never anything that's lead me to question their professionalism.
This thread is three pages long of people picking pointless sides and picking apart onesided posts. This is a great place for gaming, it's a terrible place to resolve a dispute.
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I think there may be a silver lining to all of this. Last year the convention was solely a PFS event.
This year the Raleigh Table Top Roleplaying Games group will be running games at this Extra Life mini convention.
Here is a link to their meet up page link
So this year there will be D&D 5E games, Call of Chuthulu games, Mutants and Masterminds, Star wars (I'm not sure which systems) Savage Worlds etc.
So we FFS gamers will be in with other gamers. I think this will be a good thing.
Again, I'm just GMing a game and playing PFS games at this mini convention, and I am not "in the loop" on how the convention was organized. I am looking forward the convention and I hope we all have fun.
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I have asked Chris and Tonya that they please unlock the thread.
Too many times we as a community close our eyes to a toxic element within the campaign. I want to be able to have a discussion with people regarding the two issues this thread represents to me.
1. There are those within the campaign that operate outside or in the grey areas of the rules and have done so for years and want to continue to do so. When the rules are finally applied to them, thread's like this one are how they react.
2. This also shows that we are all susceptible to cyber-bullying. This is a clear case of people who have used the internet to attempt to bully people to give them what they want. To get what they want these folks have made threats, leveled fallacious allegations, and attacked me at a very personal level. I would ask that if I am willing to bear the slings and arrows that Paizo be willing to let it happen.
By closing our eyes to this behavior we are yet again condoning it. Too many good people have stopped attending the forums because they were attacked and denied the voice to effectively fight back. Its past time that we address the toxic element within the community.
I have had several private conversations regarding this topic already and am happy to continue to have more of those. If you have questions/comments please send them to me or post them here. I'm trying to get the three posters of this topic to engage me on private conversation so I can find out what is behind their attack. For my part I own any bad decisions I make but I can't address them if I'm unaware of their impact on people.
People need to see this thread as an example that they can discuss topics, even while angry. But also as an example of the behavior that is not acceptable. If people are angry and have a right to be so, they should be able to express that safely within the community we have established, without assaulting one another and also without fear of the conversation getting completely shut down. Sometimes people just need to rant and rave and get it out of their system.
I would always advise people to take complaints directly to the source, it is very unfortunate that did not happen in this case. I have always tried to go above and beyond to make myself available to those in my region.
However, people should know they can take complaints to the public square if that is what they want to do. I certainly don't fear that but if you ask for transparency while choosing to take a complaint public the community response may not be what you expect if the truth is not on your side.
Well said! :-)
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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So, has this become a general call for civil discourse? If so, maybe we need a new thread for this, one with a less controversial title.
Maybe one called, "How we can disagree without being disagreeable." Because we DO need to disagree, but we also need to do it without resorting to personal attacks or vitriol.
I'd like for it to also have pointers on who to contact for help, and what channels are best when inter-personal problems arise. Oh! And miscommunication, too! One thing that I find personally frustrating is how difficult it is to parse tone -- this can lead to hurt feelings, sniping and further miscommunication.
We're all real people under these aliases, and we're part of an organization that often brings us together in person. I try and imagine the real people that I'm responding to, every time I post.
I keep asking myself some key questions: if I were the person asking this, what would I want to know? How would I want to be addressed? What would I find helpful?
Hmm
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Perhaps a stickied thread saying "Got a complaint? Have you tried these steps before posting here?"
It seems to me the forums are for problems the community can solve. The PFS community can't solve the problem of a VC not giving an event some requested support so why bring it up here?
I can understand the need to vent - but perhaps here isn't the place to let off steam about things you dislike about PFS. At best critique here should always be constructive.
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I'm sorry, I can't let this go because it really bothers me that this thread continues.
People need to see this thread as an example that they can discuss topics, even while angry.
Unfortunately, we cannot see the true extent of this lesson. Why? Because the only the lesson after much editing is that I see is you need to have the last word. In your position, are able to do two things the original poster never can.
One, like the original poster, you get to post a vitriolic rant (I have it if you want to see it), that gets deleted. Unlike the original poster though, you get to re-post one that appears as an original, but is not. So while the original complainant's responses exist in all of their glory, you get to appear as if all you did was respond reasonably, which again, you did not.
Two, you were able to get this thread unlocked, not once, but twice. I've never seen that happen in all of my years at Paizo. It's gone too far. Tonya addressed the problem, and well; the over-the top original complaint was dealt with, and the campaign leadership spoke coherently and with the professionalism I'd expect in a response. If we wanted to teach the lesson to not post while angry, then at that point the discussion was over.
So the OP gets the (very reasonable) rebuke, and you get to come off like your crap doesn't stink? That's hardly teaching the lesson of not posting while angry.
I am really ready for this lock/unlock to stop, even if it means that this response gets deleted.
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Since this is unlocked a second time, can we get some of the original responses to Del''s first post back up? I mean, Del was given not one, not two, but three chances to apply lipstick. I think it only fair that some of those replies get a second and third chance as well.
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Please, let's not bring back all the vitriol? I think we're all in agreement that there were a number of things that weren't handled correctly in this situation. We should learn from it and move on. I for one will be going to the event in question and I intend to have an amazing time at it.
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I guess I just view this thread differently than some here. Paizo is running a business, and PFS is associated with this business. The various regional venture coordinators, etc., are volunteers but they are also the face of the business.
It is perfectly natural that when a customer has trouble interacting with a business, that they will want to express their dissatisfaction. This is just how life goes. Pretending outrage or shock that this happens strikes me as manufactured and disingenuous.
I can assure you that if in my business I replied to a request with an overly curt response of "Sorry but I will not approve that," with no explanation, I might very well get complaints about things. And I would presumably have to deal with these complaints. If I did have to deal with the complaints, I would not pretend to be outraged by the complaints.
And again, in my business, there might be some officially posted chain of command about how complaints are supposed to be handled. Reasonable people know that these chains are often not followed.
Now these forums are Paizos official forums, and so they can moderate what goes on here. I do not dispute this. They have to balance their responses and moderation, however, with the fact that if they are overly strict then people will go to other forums and/or other games.
Note: As far as I know, I don't really know any of the major players in this thread. I don't live in the area where this is going on. Also, I have enough general busy-ness with kids and work that I basically never go to conventions--the last time was 15 years ago or thereabouts. I enjoy Pathfinder. I think people need, however, to get thicker skins with respect to entirely reasonable complaints.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I rarely, if ever, agree with anything Mister Slanky says, and but for part of the tone of his most recent post, I do agree with him here.
This thread was appropriately locked, particularly following Tonya's post which explained everything. That should have ended this thread. But no, as an RVC, he was able to convince them to unlock the thread so he could post his response. Now, as he had been personally attacked by the OP and some of the responses, I thought it was fair to allow him, at least, his one rebuttal. But no, his response was way over the top, and more than out of line (I didn't keep his original response, but I read it.). It should have been deleted, and it was. The thread was locked, then later unlocked, where he reposted an edited version of his original response, but honestly, it didn't read much differently to me.
And now the thread is supposed to be about learning lessons? Well, from my vantage point, the pool of people who need to learn that lesson include this specific RVC - his postings have not only avoided resolving this issue, they have furthered the inflammatory nature of this thread.
This thread needs to be locked. Permanently. And if Tonya or Paizo want to post here following that, that's one thing, but an RVC should not be able to use his or her position to effectively "get the last word in."
This specific situation has been addressed. Lock the thread and keep it locked. There is no reason to unlock it just so one person can get in the last word. That's nothing short of petty and, frankly, makes everyone look bad.
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I rarely, if ever, agree with anything Mister Slanky says, and but for part of the tone of his most recent post, I do agree with him here.
This thread was appropriately locked, particularly following Tonya's post which explained everything. That should have ended this thread. But no, as an RVC, he was able to convince them to unlock the thread so he could post his response. Now, as he had been personally attacked by the OP and some of the responses, I thought it was fair to allow him, at least, his one rebuttal. But no, his response was way over the top, and more than out of line (I didn't keep his original response, but I read it.). It should have been deleted, and it was. The thread was locked, then later unlocked, where he reposted an edited version of his original response, but honestly, it didn't read much differently to me.
And now the thread is supposed to be about learning lessons? Well, from my vantage point, the pool of people who need to learn that lesson include this specific RVC - his postings have not only avoided resolving this issue, they have furthered the inflammatory nature of this thread.
This thread needs to be locked. Permanently. And if Tonya or Paizo want to post here following that, that's one thing, but an RVC should not be able to use his or her position to effectively "get the last word in."
This specific situation has been addressed. Lock the thread and keep it locked. There is no reason to unlock it just so one person can get in the last word. That's nothing short of petty and, frankly, makes everyone look bad.
Woo! That's good stuff right there Mark!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I think the lesson to learn from this, for me, at least, is that we really need to explain our reasoning when we're in positions of authority and never assume our reasoning is clear.
If the original request had been replied to with the reasons it was being rejected, perhaps with a suggestion as to how they could alleviate the issue in the time allowed, it would have nipped the whole situation in the bud, as Deputy Barney would say.
Communication is harder than it seems and clear communication even more so. It pays to take the time and effort and really spell out everything, especially in written communications where subtext is lacking.
Also, knowing IS half the battle. Go Joe.
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I am willing to accept that you believe I have lost the moral high ground. Because I have the ability to respond in just an angry fashion as my attackers and my response was censored. That was unfortunate in my opinion.
I am very certain the community will not think my crap doesn't stink - MisterSlanky will not let me get away with that.
I was very angry after being attacked in a personal way on these forums. I own the original post and have shared it with several people who have asked to see it. Its pretty nasty, but that doesn't make it less true and as this is my first time ever being cyber-bullied I would respectfully ask that the community bear with me and to witness what its like for someone and their family to have to go through this so perhaps the next person so inclined will think before they act and the next person attacked will learn from my experience.
These kinds of personal attacks have happened numerous times and a lot of people no longer come to these forums because they feel this is not a safe place to have discussions about the campaign. Even simple questions get trolled and the trolls know they can attack and be as nasty as they want because the post will be deleted or censored or the thread locked from further comment. This is often the goal of the attacker. So they do over and over again and drive away good people from the community.
You are right this has never happened before and because of that we are all learning. A discussion needs to occur if we are going to face this issue going forward. I am simply asking that we stop ignoring the problem and start dealing with it. I am open to continuing the dialog.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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The original posters were given much advice about being civil and addressing their complaints via appropriate means. They chose not to take that advice.
Why are people criticizing Del for taking the same advice?
Everyone should have a chance to reconsider their actions (we have an edit window on every post). We should be praising the people who think better of their words, not attacking them anew.
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Several people have said that if I had just explained my reasons for denying them support in the first place, this would not have happened. I am curious if that translates into - I got what I deserved?
In addition, I don't think any response in which they got less support for their event than what they felt they deserved would have garnered any less of a response on their part.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Several people have said that if I had just explained my reasons for denying them support this would not have happened. I am curious if that translates into - I got what I deserved?
In addition, I don't think any response in which they got less than what they felt they deserved would have garnered any less of a response on their part.
Had you explained your reasons, I suspect we would have still had this thread, only they wouldn't have been able to claim you didn't provide them reasons. I'm sure we'd still be having this discussion.
My issue, Del, isn't that you responded to a personal attack. You were attacked. Above, I even defended your right to post your response to rebut that attack, as I thought that was fair. The tone of your response and some of the content in response to the attack is what i took exception to. I even advised you of such elsewhere.
But now, it has the appearance that you were able, as an RVC, to get the thread unlocked so you could post when others couldn't. That isn't right to me.
Many of us post in haste, sometimes, and I am as guilty as the next. I often times just delete my posts when I go back and re-reread them because after a few minutes i see that they are inflammatory and I wouldn't be adding constructively to the dialogue. I also expect more out of ALL VOs, and as long time VOs will tell you, I try to hold them accountable. And, as an RVC, at this highest echelon of the VO corp, you and your colleagues get held to the highest standard (by me, anyway.)
So, it doesn't bother me that you defended yourself (I've been bullied most of my life, so trust me when I say I understand how you feel here.). I just think there was a better way to do it, and re-opening the thread so you can post, to me, is not the better way.
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So do you want me censored or disciplined because I responded in an angry manner not befitting my status as RVC?
If that needs to happen I am willing to own that. Is there something you think would be appropriate?
If I am to be disciplined, then the next question I have is what about these attackers (They are probably not going to engage with me and I have reached out to two of them privately already and intend to reach out to the third)?
They have received GM boons, player boons, and gift certificates for their event which they already had before posting in anger when they couldn't get more stuff. Should anything happen to them?
Do we ignore it and just lay all the blame at my feet?
Do we say, "Well its for charity and if we do anything to these folks, the players, gms, retailer, sick children at Duke pay the price and its all Del's fault anyway let's just let it pass this time"?