Regional Venture Coordinator Intentionally Thwarts Small Charity Convention


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Sovereign Court

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Sharing an announcement regarding Extra-Life 3, a small charity convention being held for the third year in central North Carolina.

Regarding Extra Life 3, I have some unfortunate news. The Regional Venture Coordinator, Del Collins, has determined that our small charity convention, which generally gets a good boost in donations from the yearly special, should not be allowed to run Cosmic Captive, said special. His reasoning was thus:

"Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC"

This convention was created to bring together like-minded people to enjoy our mutual hobby and, most importantly, raise money for the sick kids at the Duke Children's hospital. It is deplorable that leadership would act so callously as to not even give a reason regarding their denial.

Therefore, I've determined that future Extra Life events, unless something radically changes, will no longer support Pathfinder Society when leadership has made it clear that they do not care about our cause enough to even give a reason. Furthermore, our GMs have already received the scenario from Paizo, so I have put in an appeal to Tonya hoping to overturn this decision, even though it was made late enough that I am not hopeful she will even see it in time.

However, as we currently have the means to, I have decided that as we have been denied permission for such a non-existent reason, to run an unauthorized version of the special, allowing us to actually play it, though not for credit. This means that it will basically be a one-shot where you can create any level (1-11) character within Pathfinder Society rules and come play the special, but not for credit.

I understand that some of you may not want to play or GM for no credit, and that is understandable, so I will be posting other tables for that slot that will be basic Pathfinder games. However, as I know many of you will not be able to play the special, I am happy to have it run unofficially, which also gives us the ability to run it for as many, or as few people who would like to play.

In the mean-time, you can donate below and sign up to play here: https://warhorn.net/events/extra-life-3

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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I'd like to add my two cents on this as well.

I play Society games very infrequently—maybe three times a year at most. But I'm a fellow coordinator for this event. My organization, Raleigh Tabletop RPGs, was asked to run non-Pathfinder tables alongside the PFS offerings at Extra Life 3 to diversify the player pool and bring in more attendees, and hence more money for Duke Children's Hospital. 100% of the cash raised goes directly to the charity. We are offering our time, design and GMing efforts, and Halloween weekend to do something good for the community as gamers. On our side of the fence, no participant gets credit in a organized play program. We're doing this to show our players a good time and support a good cause.

I'm extremely proud of the support our Meetup community has shown in organizing this event. We have Justin Achilli, a veteran designer from White Wolf and Onyx Path, running Vampire: The Masquerade at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, plus multiple tables of Chronicles of Darkness on the docket. We have a set of GMs running Call of Cthulhu in EVERY SESSION, a five-scenario run, with added support from Chaosium to make it happen. The D&D Adventurer's League has turned out in spades, and Wizards of the Coast allowed those GMs to offer special perks to players for additional donations to the charity.

We're all pulling together to make this a great event, and as a result, players and GMs are more likely to buy and play those games because they see them working to make a difference.

This decision is making it less likely that our attendees will support Paizo monetarily, in an area where, frankly, PFS play is waning among many gamers.

If Paizo does not correct this decision through an appeal, it will hurt their image. I will do my very best to circulate word of this incident far and wide to hurt their image. I will certainly not spend another dime on a Paizo product, and I will advise others not to, either.

This regional coordinator has an established reputation for making poor decisions. It is high time he was put in his place by Paizo officials, or replaced altogether.

I am livid beyond belief right now. This is as nice as I can possibly be about this.

Think about what you are doing to your game's public image. Right now, it is not very good in Raleigh, NC.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I know this is a frustrating situation, but have you emailed him back? Putting conflicts on the forums usually doesn't solve disputes, and only escalates tension.

This would seem to be a matter for Tonya, John and Linda to arbitrate.

Hmm

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I know this is a frustrating situation, but have you emailed him back? Putting conflicts on the forums usually doesn't solve disputes, and only escalates tension.

This would seem to be a matter for Tonya, John and Linda to arbitrate.

Hmm

Normally I'd agree with you but some decisions are so egregiously bad that public shaming seems appropriate and even necessary.

IF (a fairly large caveat) the situation is as described then this really is something that should be made public.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Frankly, these posts do not put your convention and organizers in a good light. Nobody on the public forum knows why. There is likely a misunderstanding on one side or the other, but you didn't provide context such as other convention support you applied for. So, it is not possible to know.

It would be best to resolve this conflict through email.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Have you taken this up with Tonya by email such that she can review all sides' concerns and all sides' accounts? If not, there's a critical, missing step. Have you requested from your RVC his reasoning in making that decision before declaring him anti-charity? If not, there's missing context and an easy, missing step.

Either way, this is a matter to be handled privately.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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John, I don't coordinate the PFS side of things for this event, so I can't say what steps have been taken. It is my understanding that the Pathfinder Society coordinator for this event has already appealed to Tonya, but expressed very limited hope that it would be handled in a timely enough fashion for the credited event to go on as hoped. But none of those facts preclude me from expressing my opinion on the matter.

My organization is working for a good cause. We're not making any money off it. We have no dog in the fight as far as self-promotion. Our events will continue to yield high attendance regardless of your decision.

You, in the meanwhile, have a product to sell, and your RVC is hamstringing your public image. I would consider that highly problematic were I in your shoes.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Quite seriously, Richard.

I am also cognizant that I am operating on limited information, having not heard all sides nor being up to speed on campaign activity in the southeast US; I am, after all, focused more on creating the adventures that folks are requesting, not distributing them. That information needs to go through Tonya, at which point the team can determine whether the current model for distributing the interactive special is the best, whether there should be special exceptions/criteria for charity-driven events, and where your event falls in that regard. To restate my point, though, all of that information should go through Tonya, not arbitration by public messageboard.

I do want to be sure that you're familiar with the charity boons that I created specifically to help raise money for charity events, too. I strongly suspect your event would qualify.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Our PFS coordinator for this event is a dedicated fan of Paizo's organized play program and has run this as a PFS-exclusive event for the past two years prior to bringing me on board, so I feel confident that he has applied for those boons to be distributed at Extra Life 3. In fact, I believe they were mentioned in at least one of our previous meetings.

5/5 ⦵⦵

John Compton wrote:


I do want to be sure that you're familiar with the charity boons that I created specifically to help raise money for charity events, too. I strongly suspect your event would qualify.

/sidenote...

These are a thing? How cool!

As someone who does charity/not-for profit volunteering on a regular basis that's pretty interesting, are they only for the charity organisations themselves or can they be used as a fundraiser on behalf of charities/not-for-profits, and is that US based only?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Shifty wrote:
John Compton wrote:


I do want to be sure that you're familiar with the charity boons that I created specifically to help raise money for charity events, too. I strongly suspect your event would qualify.

/sidenote...

These are a thing? How cool!

As someone who does charity/not-for profit volunteering on a regular basis that's pretty interesting, are they only for the charity organisations themselves or can they be used as a fundraiser on behalf of charities/not-for-profits, and is that US based only?

Tonya (and/or your respective RVC) can provide the details, as she manages the distribution. My recollection is that the boons are only for fundraising purposes tied to an existing charity, such as a convention raising money for a disease-fighting foundation. They're not for Pathfinder-oriented fundraising, so the "John Needs More Money to Print Chronicle Sheets Foundation" would not qualify. I don't believe that these are US-only. Again, Tonya and RVCs have more specifics. We've distributed many over the past year with great results.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

Richard Moore wrote:
Our PFS coordinator for this event is a dedicated fan of Paizo's organized play program and has run this as a PFS-exclusive event for the past two years prior to bringing me on board, so I feel confident that he has applied for those boons to be distributed at Extra Life 3. In fact, I believe they were mentioned in at least one of our previous meetings.

That sounds good, Richard. The boons only began a little less than a year ago, so this might be the first time they've been available for the event. Even so, it sounds like folks are on top of it.

The rest we can address further once everyone is back in the office next week; I may be spending the long weekend in the office writing, but others are away for the next few days.

5/5 ⦵⦵

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Thanks John.

Specifically - I was thinking about the Girl Guides (Girl Scouts). They are very kindly allowing us to use their venues for free for our events, and last time funds were raised by selling their delicious biscuits to a captive audience consisting of a hall full of gamers.
Boon auctions or raffles would be a great initiative.

I'll get back out of the thread now :)


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Shifty wrote:
and last time funds were raised by selling their delicious biscuits to a captive audience consisting of a hall full of gamers.

Clever girls... /JurassicPark

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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John Compton wrote:
The rest we can address further once everyone is back in the office next week; I may be spending the long weekend in the office writing, but others are away for the next few days.

I appreciate you taking the time out of your writing schedule to respond personally.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Twin Cities Metro South

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I've gone back and forth about posting here.

This thread is highly inappropriate and unprofessional. There are multiple reasons for denying a request, and posting publicly, attacking someone individually before actually using the known appeal process is just wrong.(actually.. doing it at all is wrong.)

I help run a successful charity convention - and we will vocally and passionately defend it..... but i would never condone this thread from one of my colleagues. This belongs in a private conversation - especially knowing the target of the vitriol cannot publicly defend him/her-self.

Go back and ask for a reason. Email the next tier appealling. Leave it private


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Absolutely. Getting the answer "no" is nothing to complain about when the system already has several further steps to go through. (Step one - writing back to understand the reason. Step two - discussing what can be done to make it amenable. Step three - appealing higher up the chain).

In a more general sense - fair dispute resolution is pretty much impossible when only one side of the dispute is presenting their case.


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Making it public was the absolute right thing to do with time being short. It makes sure that the people involved will deal with it.

The RVC should have explained his denial in the first place so the organizer could correct any deficiency in the application if possible without having to ask what the problem was. Having recently found out that our local lodge has been denied all future multi table specials due to a rules change I sympathize with this organizer.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jessex wrote:
Making it public was the absolute right thing to do with time being short. It makes sure that the people involved will deal with it.

Paizo are closed until Tuesday.

The OP could have spent the weekend attempting to discuss the issue with the VC to find out what the barrier is and if there's any way to resolve it. If they had no resolution, they could email Tonya on Monday night. That would make their position stronger, given Tonya more information plus has the benefit of complying with the preferred dispute resolution procedures rather than stepping outside them. It also wouldn't have added any time to how long it took to get the right person to look at it.

Plus, perhaps when the OP emailedthe VC back and said "why not?" they might have realised the perceived problem and rectified it without having "publicly shamed" a volunteer without all the information.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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I think what you are seeing is a symptom of the fact that there are quite a few people who currently do not fully trust the system to react to things in a timely or reasonable fashion.

I'm far down the food chain but I strongly get the impression that there is a (perceived or real) lack of communication and responsiveness between the top and the grunts.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Paul Jackson wrote:

I think what you are seeing is a symptom of the fact that there are quite a few people who currently do not fully trust the system to react to things in a timely or reasonable fashion.

I'm far down the food chain but I strongly get the impression that there is a (perceived or real) lack of communication and responsiveness between the top and the grunts.

Possibly, but this kind of approach to individual disputes isn't going to help that.

If there's an issue with communication and/or dispute resolution that should be brought up separately and improved.

Sovereign Court

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Paul Jackson wrote:

I'm far down the food chain but I strongly get the impression that there is a (perceived or real) lack of communication and responsiveness between the top and the grunts.

I certainly get this impression as well. I have voiced my complaints about certain things to Tonya and have gotten what felt like a canned response defending what was already in place. It honestly left me feeling like my opinion has little worth to Paizo, and certainly dampened my enthusiasm for the campaign and the direction it's heading.

Silver Crusade

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Guys the event is three weeks away and you already have the product. This could have been handled A LOT better than that. I have volunteered an significant amount of hours volunteering with red cross, scouts, and multiple other groups and entities. This smells very much like using the children this is supposed to help in a weaponized manner against people who quite possibly do not even know this going on.
And if you believe that an entire organization that has routinely supported both the gaming community and the charities(quite a few actually) is to be written off and tarred and feathered for a screw up, then don't LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON THE WAY OUT.

Sovereign Court

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samerandomhero wrote:

Guys the event is three weeks away and you already have the product. This could have been handled A LOT better than that. I have volunteered an significant amount of hours volunteering with red cross, scouts, and multiple other groups and entities. This smells very much like using the children this is supposed to help in a weaponized manner against people who quite possibly do not even know this going on.

And if you believe that an entire organization that has routinely supported both the gaming community and the charities(quite a few actually) is to be written off and tarred and feathered for a screw up, then don't LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON THE WAY OUT.

I get where you're coming from, but when people are upset, drawing a line in the sand and basically saying "you're either with us or against us" doesn't really solve the problem at hand. I think both sides stepping back and then reaching out to the other to find out why things are the way they are might be a better option.

Does my experiences with Paizo staff (both voluntary and paid) dampen my expectations and hopes? Yes. Does that mean I'm going to wash my hands and give up on them? Not at all. I'm also willing to work so that Paizo central understands where I'm coming from and I'm going to keep an open mind so I can understand better where they're coming from.

I think based on past lacks of communication this will be difficult, though.

Silver Crusade

That is a very reasonable and honest response Daniel. I hope it gets worked out in your area. :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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Daniel Wheeler wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:

I'm far down the food chain but I strongly get the impression that there is a (perceived or real) lack of communication and responsiveness between the top and the grunts.

I certainly get this impression as well. I have voiced my complaints about certain things to Tonya and have gotten what felt like a canned response defending what was already in place. It honestly left me feeling like my opinion has little worth to Paizo, and certainly dampened my enthusiasm for the campaign and the direction it's heading.

I have had many issues since I became a VL this year. Some I raised with my VC, and he fixed them. Some he couldn't fix. Together we took those to the RVC, and he dealt with them. A few remaining issues the RVC did not have a good answer, and those we took to Tonya, and while the answer from her was not always the one I wanted, necessarily, any time I went to Tonya with a concern, a reason for my concern, and a reasonable compromise that addressed my concern while addressing Paizo's stated concerns, I have been able to work out a compromise.

Sometimes, the compromise has been "Try it our way this time, let us know what works and what doesn't, and lets use that to refine the policy for next time."

I have never gotten a canned response or a response that was dismissive of my concerns.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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*three deep, calming breaths*

Ahh, there. Isn't that nice?

So, I did something foolish earlier today. I wrote while angry and released it into the wild. For that, I want to apologize.

That said, in reviewing my correspondence with the local Extra Life coordinator who also has led the organization of PFS tables in past years at this event, I see that a strong effort was made on his part to communicate with the local Venture Captain consistently and early in the process, requesting that the local VC contact the RVC for approval well over three months before the event date (on 7/20). The local Extra Life coordinator expressed concern from the outset that he might have to appeal to someone higher in the chain than the RVC, and expressly asked that the local VC help him establish the request to run the special. (He also asked about the charity boons in that message, by the way!)

I also see three documented attempts in this email chain on the local Extra Life coordinator's part (on (8/9, 8/11, and 8/21) to follow up with the local VC on that request for approval prior to the 8-week cutoff point which the VC stated was in place (a deadline of 9/3, by my reckoning).

Presumably, the Extra Life coordinator circumvented the local VC due to the lack of response and went higher in the chain, because as I understand it, the GMs for the event have already been issued the special scenario materials for #8-00 from someone at Paizo. And now, allegedly, the local VC just begins to pay attention and submits the request for approval to run the special to the RVC—and the RVC denies that request without explanation.

I'm at a loss as to how the materials can be disseminated from Paizo to the participating GMs (since they're otherwise unavailable) only to have a RVC refuse the request to run the special three weeks ahead of the event. I'm also amazed that in an hour's worth of searches for the module's title and scenario number on this site, I couldn't find the requirements for running it at an event (something I would think would be included on the product page). Another forum reader was kind enough to help me find the blog post containing that information.

No one involved in this process on our side of things is trying get anything for free by playing the "for the children" card. (Believe me, my October would be a LOT more relaxed if I wasn't working to coordinate this!) We want to pull in as many players as possible to support this event and raise cash for something we believe in. Local organizations and businesses are working side by side to accomplish something good.

I think the local Extra Life organizer's frustrations with the system, as expressed in the original post, are legitimate. I also think that waiting for the appeal process to go through is the proper course of action right now.

I'm sorry if my original response to this post escalated an already frustrating situation. But after seeing how hard others are working to help make this event happen—people who would like to continue being involved in it, to help it grow in reach and success—getting news like this so late in the process is infuriating.

I hope a good compromise can be reached.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

There is still plenty of time to escalate this up the usual channels and wait for a response, unfortunately a public discussion doesn't really help all that much, since no-one here has all the relevant information.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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I have a problem. This thread needs to be locked. The title is baiting, the post doesn't (and can't) contain complete information, the poster admits to ignoring the established chain for appeals, and then says that campaign rules will be broken (playing special anyway).

There is nothing useful that can come from this thread unless the poster agrees to try the appeals process, which a Paizo employee has already asked him/her to do.

The problem is that if thread gets locked the contingent that sees conspiracies is going to howl about how "Paizo cracks down on anyone who dares to disagree with them. Paizo squashes all dissent!"

If you enjoy this game, try not to do things that will hurt its longevity.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

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I just want to chime in and take some of the blame. It was my responsibility to ask permission to have it run, and I only made that request on October 4th, 2016.

Anybody that would like to see the Warhorn for the event, just click here.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Jessex wrote:

Making it public was the absolute right thing to do with time being short. It makes sure that the people involved will deal with it.

The RVC should have explained his denial in the first place so the organizer could correct any deficiency in the application if possible without having to ask what the problem was. Having recently found out that our local lodge has been denied all future multi table specials due to a rules change I sympathize with this organizer.

For the record, I don't believe that anything has indicated that all future multi table specials can't be run. The rules or 2-SP through 7-00 clearly can be run at any event that has the requisite minimum number of tables.

And no decision has been made or announced for specials after 8-00.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Kevin Willis wrote:

I have a problem. This thread needs to be locked. The title is baiting, the post doesn't (and can't) contain complete information, the poster admits to ignoring the established chain for appeals, and then says that campaign rules will be broken (playing special anyway).

There is nothing useful that can come from this thread unless the poster agrees to try the appeals process, which a Paizo employee has already asked him/her to do.

The problem is that if thread gets locked the contingent that sees conspiracies is going to howl about how "Paizo cracks down on anyone who dares to disagree with them. Paizo squashes all dissent!"

If you enjoy this game, try not to do things that will hurt its longevity.

Agreed. The original method of course plaintiff was inappropriate. But now that the complaint has been made public, squashing it will be worse. Catch 22, and any decision is bad for the campaign.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

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I am incredibly bothered by this thread. It goes from a complaint about a decision made by the RVC to a personal attack on him. At the point the latter happened, I lost all interest in the original complaint.

Maybe you have a legitimate complaint, maybe you don't. When you crossed the line into personal attacks, you went too far.

My hope is that this thread would be locked and/or deleted, and the issue be resolved, one way or another, privately.

The unconscionable behavior of the personal attacks is too much.

I would add that I find threats, of any nature, to be abhorrent. "Give us what we demand, or we are going to say bad things about Paizo." That is not an effective way to successfully resolve your complaint in a way that leads to a positive outcome for everyone.

I would seriously rethink your strategy.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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It will take a huge act of humility, forgiveness and generosity for Tonya to give permission now. The problem with doing so, however, is that it will reward this type of poor, threatening behavior.

Again, it's a catch 22, where the players are the victims.

Dark Archive

While I have no horse in this metaphorical race, I do have a few opinions I'd like to share regarding it. First of all, it sounds like the regional coordinator pulled an a-hole move. And with the later information shared, this was being pulled right from the get go. That's not cool in my opinion.

On the other hand, the original post was far too confrontational in my opinion. I first clicked on the thread after reading the title and thinking "The hell?!". Considering Paizo's offices are closed right now, this made using public attacks and threats not only an a-hole move, but a rather dumb one too.

I approve of Richard Moore's returning when calmed down and having investigated the situation more. And while I can understand RoshVagari's decision as stated in the original post, I feel it may well be made in haste. It sounds like this decision was the result of a multi month campaign of getting ignored and receiving the run around from the regional coordinator. But this may not have been the way to bring this issue to the public.

At the very least, the renouncement should have been made when calm. And it should have been made in an non-aggressive format.


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I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Liberator 2000 wrote:

I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

How is "Sorry but I will not approve that." A dick move? Curt, but I don't see how it's overly dickish.

Also it's not so much "the establishment" hating "whistle-blowers" as people pointing out it's kinda unhelpful to your cause to use inflammatory tactics to try and rile people up when we don't even have much of a story, let alone half, especially over the holiday weekend when most of the people you're trying to appeal to aren't even in to look at your posts.

Look at the title of the thread, it's an outright attack that's basically saying the VL did it to spite the charity specifically, rather than because of following society rules for when scenarios can be played for credit.

Dark Archive

It isn't really whistle blowing though.

Dark Archive

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Rysky wrote:
Liberator 2000 wrote:

I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

How is "Sorry but I will not approve that." A dick move? Curt, but I don't see how it's overly dickish.

Also it's not so much "the establishment" hating "whistle-blowers" as people pointing out it's kinda unhelpful to your cause to use inflammatory tactics to try and rile people up when we don't even have much of a story, let alone half, especially over the holiday weekend when most of the people you're trying to appeal to aren't even in to look at your posts.

Look at the title of the thread, it's an outright attack that's basically saying the VL did it to spite the charity specifically, rather than because of following society rules for when scenarios can be played for credit.

The lack of explication, especially with the revealed fact that the RVC had apparently been ignoring the event's coordinator for months is what makes it a dick move. Especially when the decision was apparently finally made so close to the cut off date for getting an event sanctioned.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Liberator 2000 wrote:

I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

How is "Sorry but I will not approve that." A dick move? Curt, but I don't see how it's overly dickish.

Also it's not so much "the establishment" hating "whistle-blowers" as people pointing out it's kinda unhelpful to your cause to use inflammatory tactics to try and rile people up when we don't even have much of a story, let alone half, especially over the holiday weekend when most of the people you're trying to appeal to aren't even in to look at your posts.

Look at the title of the thread, it's an outright attack that's basically saying the VL did it to spite the charity specifically, rather than because of following society rules for when scenarios can be played for credit.

The lack of explication, especially with the revealed fact that the RVC had apparently been ignoring the event's coordinator for months is what makes it a dick move. Especially when the decision was apparently finally made so close to the cut off date for getting an event sanctioned.

Well now we have conflicting statements, since Richard states there have been multiple attempts to contact about getting it sanctioned it early whereas Michael stated they only put in for it on the 4th.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Eastern Eurasia-Africa

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After they are run at GenCon the multi table specials are reserved for the biggest conventions in a region for a time. As the original poster already mentioned the convention in question is only a small convention, it's actually not strange the request was denied.

Dark Archive

If, and I by no means have all or even half of the information, the RVC had been ignoring the requests and any followups for months, then the 4th could have been when the event coordinator finally decided to try going above the RVC's head. But again, I don't know if this is what happened or not. Either way, the OP went about this in the wrong way. Or at least, that's my opinion.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Liberator 2000 wrote:

I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

There is a reason permission is required. Something about making sure that areas with several very geographically close lodges with lots of member cross pollination not over saturating the region with specials. Or not impacting each other's conventions that happen either the same weekends or back to back ones.

Because permission is required, it tacitly implies that permission could be denied.

The only thing I disliked about the denial, was how brief it was with no explanation attached.

But my distaste for that is completely buried under a mountain of disgust in the blatant threats and insults tossed about by professionals.

OP and pilers on, you've really, really done your players a huge disservice by acting in this manner. The only outcome I can see, is that permission is fully denied. How could they do otherwise without telling anyone who doesn't gain permission, that all they need to do is trash the RVC and Paizo publically to get what they want? To threaten Paizo with loss of support and revenue. To threaten Paizo with a negative word of mouth campaign.

You should be ashamed. This is not the way to get things done.

The best way to go forward is to apologize to the RVC, Paizo, and then hope that on Tuesday Tonya is feeling generous and is understanding of the situation. That the true issue was a communication problem, she accepts the apologies, and under no uncertain terms granto permission with the understanding that any other outbreaks like this will be categorically denied.

Public complaints have thier place and can be useful. They can even be a good thing, as long as they are handled tactfully. This is a prime example of how NOT to publically complain. Locking or deleting the thread isn't about the establishment ignoring or hiding issues so the appearance looks golden. It's about disallowing a bully, entitled customer treating employees and volunteers in a reprehensible way.

Dark Archive

Auke Teeninga wrote:
After they are run at GenCon the multi table specials are reserved for the biggest conventions in a region for a time. As the original poster already mentioned the convention in question is only a small convention, it's actually not strange the request was denied.

If this is the case, then it would have solved all sorts of issues to just explain with something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but the event is too small to meet the requirements for running the scenario at this point in time." You know, instead of just "I can't allow it".


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It sounds like they didn't hear back from whoever, was approved and purchased by the higher ups, but whoever hadn't heard about that, so when he finally got a hold of OP he rejected it without knowing the higher ups had allowed purchase.

So really, I suspect it's about incomplete information and miscommunication.

Dark Archive

Tallow wrote:


There is a reason permission is required. Something about making sure that areas with several very geographically close lodges with lots of member cross pollination not over saturating the region with specials. Or not impacting each other's conventions that happen either the same weekends or back to back ones.

Because permission is required, it tacitly implies that permission could be denied.

The only thing I disliked about the denial, was how brief it was with no explanation attached.

But my distaste for that is completely buried under a mountain of disgust in the blatant threats and insults tossed about by professionals.

OP and pilers on, you've really, really done your players a huge disservice by acting in this manner. The only outcome I can see, is that permission is fully denied. How could they do otherwise without telling anyone who doesn't gain permission, that all they need to do is trash the RVC and Paizo publically to get what they want? To threaten Paizo with loss of support and revenue. To threaten Paizo with a negative word of mouth campaign.

You should be ashamed. This is not the way to get things done.

The best way to go forward is to apologize to the RVC, Paizo, and then hope that on Tuesday Tonya is feeling generous and is understanding of the situation. That the true issue was a communication problem, she accepts the...

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. I feel both parties are in the wrong. The RVC for not providing an explanation for why permission was denied, and RoshVagari for the antagonistic and highly public reaction. While I'm ashamed that the RVC was so rude in his or her denial, the event cordinator's reaction to said denial makes me less inclined to support Extra Life in the future if this is how their people act.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Kahel Stormbender wrote:
If, and I by no means have all or even half of the information, the RVC had been ignoring the requests and any followups for months, then the 4th could have been when the event coordinator finally decided to try going above the RVC's head. But again, I don't know if this is what happened or not. Either way, the OP went about this in the wrong way. Or at least, that's my opinion.

This isn't how I read things. The event coordinator was working through the VC, and assumed it was all taken care of. May even have had a tentative, "I'll take care of it, go ahead and schedule," from the VC. The action of making the request fell through the cracks. Something that can easily happen to a volunteer who has a real life full time job and basically a full time volunteer position. So the request fell through the cracks. The organizer submitted the Scenario requests for thier GMS including the special, and Tonya approved it and granted the special, probably assuming the request would not have been made without approval of the RVC. Then in the 11th hour, the "i" and "T" tried to get dotted and crossed retrospectively, and failed.

This was completely an issue of miscommunication and assumption on all sides all because of a mistake in letting the official request fall through the cracks.

This may have been a convention that fit the criteria for being denied from the get go. The denial was not a jerk move. The curtness of the denial was not a jerk move, albeit an explanation and openness to dialogue based on the uniqueness of the snowball of assumptions and miscommunication would have been helpful. That friendly dialogue might have changed the denial to an approval with a stern warning to ensure approval first next time. And with the reasoning and transparent criteria elucidated, the convention team could plan better for next year. Either do what they needed to meet the new criteria or plan a different special.


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Tallow wrote:
Liberator 2000 wrote:

I don't think the thread should be locked. I note that a VL, a 5-star, and a VC think it should be locked. Well...news of news...the establishment doesn't like whistle blowers.

Let's face it, a reply of "Sorry but I will not approve that.
DC," is a dick move. It is a bad move even if there were extenuating circumstances. It is a bad move even if there is bad blood between the two.

So I don't see any problem with someone playing whistle-blower and exposing it on the forums.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.”
--Albert Einstein

There is a reason permission is required. Something about making sure that areas with several very geographically close lodges with lots of member cross pollination not over saturating the region with specials. Or not impacting each other's conventions that happen either the same weekends or back to back ones.

Because permission is required, it tacitly implies that permission could be denied.

The only thing I disliked about the denial, was how brief it was with no explanation attached.

But my distaste for that is completely buried under a mountain of disgust in the blatant threats and insults tossed about by professionals.

OP and pilers on, you've really, really done your players a huge disservice by acting in this manner. The only outcome I can see, is that permission is fully denied. How could they do otherwise without telling anyone who doesn't gain permission, that all they need to do is trash the RVC and Paizo publically to get what they want? To threaten Paizo with loss of support and revenue. To threaten Paizo with a negative word of mouth campaign.

You should be ashamed. This is not the way to get things done.

The best way to go forward is to apologize to the RVC, Paizo, and then hope that on Tuesday Tonya is feeling generous and is understanding of the situation. That the true issue was a communication problem, she accepts the...

They should be ashamed for quoting the VC's snarky words by email in a public forum? Grow up. If you say something snarky by email, you should be prepared to have it forwarded on to other people.


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I would note that we haven't yet heard the RVC's side of the story - the people decrying his actions as "rude" are doing so based only on the information provided here.

As an aside, I notice that the inflammatory statement about "whistleblowers" comes from an account with only one post. The reader is invited to draw their own conclusions about that fact.

EDIT: Two posts, now.

Dark Archive 4/5

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Let me first introduce myself as the organizer of the Extra Life 3 convention. I regret to say, I haven't read most of the thread, but would like to offer a little bit of context, via what I posted today re Extra Life, below. Please know that I won't be returning to the boards, since I really do not want to spark more arguments, I just want to wash my hands of the situation and focus on the charity, so if I don't reply to you, this is why.

I hate rules. I understand the need for them in some situations, but in general, I feel like the vast majority of them are stifling and unnecessary. Which explains my Chaotic Good, Libertarian bent. So when a big bureaucracy does things that block us from being able to do good, in this case, raise money for the Duke Children's Hospital, it sets me off way more than anything else. Perhaps I overreacted yesterday, but from what I've heard, the person in question is well overdue for being called out. Either way, I'm calmer now, and would like to focus on the positives.

I've discussed with Rosh, and through adversity, we'd like to effect positive change, namely, we're putting together some new games we're going to run with RTR instead of worrying about the Pathfinder Society situation. I'm focusing on a Rat Queens game, so whoever plays Braga, you're in luck. :P

I've also heard back from Michael, who will be in charge of PFS. I apologize for any strife I've caused, and thank you for coming back in to help.

Finally, to everyone who has helped with Extra Life now, and in the past, long time supporters, to those who have just joined us this year, Thank you. We can't achieve our ultimate goal without you. I look forward to working with all of you in the coming years.
As always, you can sign up for games
here: https://warhorn.net/events/extra-life-3

here: http://www.meetup.com/Raleigh-Tabletop-Rolepla…/…/233578809/

and here: http://www.meetup.com/Raleigh-Tabletop-Rolepla…/…/233578850/

Donations are always appreciated, and you can do so below! That would be cool of you. http://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donorDrive.participant&p articipantID=196392

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