|
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The Kapenia Dancer Magus archetype says: "Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."
I am fully aware that I can't apply slashing grace in a turn in which I use spell combat, because that would mean the other hand is "occupied" by the spell combat. My question is if I can take slashing grace at all. It seems to me that I can based on FAQ rulings, but I wanted to run it by people.
Slashing grace states "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)..." and then goes on to say the effects of slashing grace.
Now there might be some debate as to whether or not the bladed scarf is a one-handed melee weapon or just wielded as a one-handed melee weapon.
However, the official FAQ states
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rb5
"An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects."
This seems to be saying that if you have some ability that lets you treat something like a bladed scarf as a one-handed weapon, then it really is a one-handed weapon "for other effects" and so could work with slashing grace.
"a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon." is NOT the same as "a bladed scarf dancer can treat a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."
Because it says "wield" (and not treat), the wieldability is the only thing the rule exception is changing.
I believe this is more akin to the mithral breastplate / brawling enhancement FAW.
While YOU may *wield* the bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon, it is not treated in as a one-handed weapon in any other respect, nor does not BECOME a one-handed melee weapon.
|
|
"a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon." is NOT the same as "a bladed scarf dancer can treat a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."
Because it says "wield" (and not treat), the wieldability is the only thing the rule exception is changing.
I believe this is more akin to the mithral breastplate / brawling enhancement FAW.
While YOU may *wield* the bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon, it is not treated in as a one-handed weapon in any other respect, nor does not BECOME a one-handed melee weapon.
I don't think what you are saying is true. Jotungrip says "At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."
Are you saying that I would not treat a bladed scarf in this way? As in, even though I am wielding it in one hand, I get 1.5 STR and power attack, etc? Surely that is not the case.
It seems to me more that what the FAQ I quoted is saying that "one handed" is in the viewpoint of whoever is wielding the weapon. If they are a giant, they can have a very large weapon and wield it one handedly. If you have the kapenia dancer ability, then a bladed scarf is one handed "for all effects".
Edit: "a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon." is NOT the same as "a bladed scarf dancer can treat a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon." I think that the FAQ I quoted is saying exactly that these are the same.
I don't think what you are saying is true.
... even though I am wielding it in one hand, I get 1.5 STR and power attack, etc? Surely that is not the case.
See this FAQ.
The bladed scarf is still a two-handed weapon. You just have a special ability to wield it in one hand, one that does NOT say anything about treating it as a one-handed weapon in any other way.
edit: fixed close quote tag
Edit2: Upon re-reading The Kapenia Dancer Magus archetype I am changing my conclusion. The wording is half-way between the lance's wording and the Jotungrip's wording "is treated as one-handed".
It makes more SENSE to treat it as a one-handed weapon in all respects except identity.
What Kazaan said.
On the plus side, since it's still a two-handed weapon by those rulings, you can get more damage out of Power Attack with it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How ever many hands you're using is what type of weapon it is.
Now the problem is the feat has you pick one one-handed weapon, and the default weapon isn't one-handed, even though you can use it as a one-handed and when you wield it it's one-handed for you for everything. It just wont work with the feat because the feat is decided outside of your other abilities.
Only exception to this rule is a mounted lance.
I'm not buying Kazaan's determination that you cannot select it for Slashing Grace simply because other characters treat it as a two-handed weapon. The feat is only applying to the person taking it, so if that weapon is always a one-handed weapon for that person, then it is a valid selection for that feat. Never-mind the fact that it is already a finessable weapon really makes me lean towards it working great with slashing grace. I honestly can't think of anything class MORE graceful than a kapenia dancer.
|
|
There are three FAQs relevant to this question. The oldest of which directly contradicts the other two;
The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
posted October 2013
Personally, I resolve this apparent contradiction by taking the first FAQ as applying specifically to the mounted lance. That weapon is a special circumstance which still receives 1.5x strength bonus to damage when wielded one handed so long as the character is mounted. Thus, only weapons "such as" the mounted lance, which receive 1.5x strength to damage when wielded one-handed, would also get the +50% power attack damage.
The second FAQ states that a two handed weapon wielded in one hand DOES NOT receive 1.5x strength bonus to damage or two-handed bonus damage on power attack. Further, it is treated as a one-handed weapon for those two effects AND "so on". The scope of that 'so on' is debatable, but the THIRD FAQ indicates it extends to feats (e.g. not needing Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield a bastard sword one-handed if you have the ability to wield two-handed weapons in one hand) and "other effects".
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The first thing to learn is the alleged contradiction has been rejected as a contradiction.
Let's use different words. Lances while mounted are two handed weapons wielded with only one hand on the weapon.
Every other thing that modifies a weapon, such as "as a one-handed weapon" changes the weapon from a two handed to one handed for you.
The first thing to learn is the alleged contradiction has been rejected as a contradiction.
Let's use different words. Lances while mounted are two handed weapons wielded with only one hand on the weapon.
Every other thing that modifies a weapon, such as "as a one-handed weapon" changes the weapon from a two handed to one handed for you.
Agreed, if a character ability changes the weapon to one-handed, then it is a one-handed weapon.
Slashing Grace will work for that character.
I don't think so. If you have a feat that says, "select one slashing weapon" and you have the ability to let a club do slashing damage, the club in general isn't a slashing weapon, thus you can select it for the feat, even though you can do slashing damage with it.
The character ability does not change the weapon, it allows the character (only) to treat the weapon a specific way. The weapon remains what it is.
@CBDunkerson: I think we've had this conversation before. That first FAQ is not a contradiction. See this thread among others.
EDIT: I see this like the Mithral Breastplate FAQ. Even though the mithral breastplate is treated as light armor, it remains medium armor for things like using hosteling and you can't enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling.
So even though YOU treat the scarf as a one-handed weapon, it's not. Something like Effortless Lace wouldn't work.
|
|
I see this like the Mithral Breastplate FAQ. Even though the mithral breastplate is treated as light armor, it remains medium armor for things like using hosteling and you can't enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling.
Oddly, I also see this like the Mithral Breastplate FAQ... and yet reach conclusions completely opposite of yours.
Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”
This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
Physical aspects of the armor remain unchanged. e.g. hosteling and enhancements.
Usage aspects of the armor switch. e.g. no bard arcane spell failure, barbarian fast movement, ranger combat style, brawler/swashbuckler/gunslinger nimble bonus, rogue evasion, brawler flurry, sleeping in armor w/o Endurance feat, et cetera.The weapon aspects we have been discussing are usage issues, and thus per the mithral armor FAQ WOULD change to match the way the weapon is being used. Only physical aspects of the weapon (e.g. weight, cost to make from special materials, enchantments that only work on slashing weapons, etc) would remain unchanged.
Applying the logic of that FAQ to weapons clearly and directly contradicts your position.
It's the feat that is checking. The feat needs to select one one-handed weapon. The scarf is not a one-handed weapon, even though you treat it as a one-handed weapon.
physical aspects remain unchained. e.g. its a two-handed weapon
usage aspect of the weapon switch. e.g. I can wield it as one handed.
the weapon aspects we are looking at for the feat are physical aspects. Thus per the mithral armor FAQ it wouldn't work. You cannot select a two-handed weapon with the feat.
Otherwise, which I bet you accept, is that a titan mauler barbarian can select greatswords since he can wield them as one-handed weapons.
It's the feat that is checking. The feat needs to select one one-handed weapon. The scarf is not a one-handed weapon, even though you treat it as a one-handed weapon.
physical aspects remain unchained. e.g. its a two-handed weapon
usage aspect of the weapon switch. e.g. I can wield it as one handed.
the weapon aspects we are looking at for the feat are physical aspects. Thus per the mithral armor FAQ it wouldn't work. You cannot select a two-handed weapon with the feat.
Otherwise, which I bet you accept, is that a titan mauler barbarian can select greatswords since he can wield them as one-handed weapons.
How you wield a weapon is usage.
And yes, a titan mauler could select the greatsword.
He won't get dex-to-hit, but it would be a legal choice for that characters to select for Slashing Grace.
This is perhaps the root of our disagreement.
I see "two-handed weapon" as an immutable physical property of the weapon, just as "piercing" is. Certain abilities or special rules might allow one to wield such a weapon in other than two-hands, or to do damage other than piercing (weapon versatility) [let's say bludgeoning] with such a weapon. Using such abilities do NOT make the weapon a one-handed weapon or make it a bludgeoning weapon.
When Slashing Grace says "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)" I take that to mean weapons that the weapons table says are light or one-handed. Your position is that it means any slashing weapon that you are wielding in one hand (that are sized for you).
Would your position allow a mounted swashbuckler to regain one panache point for confirming a crit with lance wielded in one hand ? I contend that even though you're wielding it in one hand, it's still a two-handed weapon.
Perhaps the OP's question is really about what Slashing Grace is really saying. I'll search again (does that make it re-search)?
|
|
Otherwise, which I bet you accept, is that a titan mauler barbarian can select greatswords since he can wield them as one-handed weapons.
Yes, I accept the FAQ (already cited) which specifically says that a titan mauler can treat two-handed weapons (e.g. greatswords) as one-handed weapons.
For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
so if they can why can't my bard or fighter? The feat says, "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon" and since somebody can wield it as a light or one-handed weapon why can't everyone take greatsword? The feat doesn't say anything about how you're able to use a weapon.
Yes wielding a weapon is usage. But the feat doesn't care about how you can wield a weapon. It's saying select a weapon in the light or one-handed weapon lists.
Like it if said, "select a weapon that you can wield as a light or one-handed weapon..." then I'd totally say they could. But since that's not what it says the feat doesn't care about how you can wield a weapon but only cares what "weight category" the weapon is in, aka it's physical properties.
I go to a weapon store.
Is that bladed scarf on display a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
I pick it up, is it a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
How many HP does it have? 5 as a One-handed blade or 10 as a Two-handed blade?
Yes I WIELD it as a one-handed, and thus treat it as a one-handed for everything that care how you wield a weapon. But it's still a two-handed weapon, thus it still has the two-handed weapon HP AND is still a two-handed weapon when you go to pick a light or one-handed weapon for the feat.
I go to a weapon store.
Is that bladed scarf on display a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
I pick it up, is it a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
How many HP does it have? 5 as a One-handed blade or 10 as a Two-handed blade?Yes I WIELD it as a one-handed, and thus treat it as a one-handed for everything that care how you wield a weapon. But it's still a two-handed weapon, thus it still has the two-handed weapon HP AND is still a two-handed weapon when you go to pick a light or one-handed weapon for the feat.
All of your statement were true save the bolded one.
Amending one false statement to a list of true statements does not make that statement true.
so if it's a one-handed weapon for this feat why is it not a one-handed weapon for this feat for everyone?
if it's still a two-handed weapon getting two-handed weapon HP why is is suddenly a "kind of" one-handed weapon for this feat?
the feat doesn't care about how you use or are going to use the weapon. It only cares about what kind of weapon it is, kind of weapon is a weapon physical property and not a wielded/use property.
|
|
How about this;
When two weapon fighting you can only use a one-handed or light weapon in each hand. So, could a character that has an ability (e.g. Jotungrip) which allows them to use a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon use that weapon in TWF?
That is, could someone with Jotungrip TWF with a greatsword and a dagger? Would the TWF feat reduce the attack penalties as if that greatsword were a one-handed weapon?
I believe the answer to all of those questions is 'yes'. The claims that what feats apply to weapons are a physical aspect of the weapon would seem to argue 'no'... because the TWF feat would be treating a normally two-handed greatsword as a one-handed weapon because of the character's ability to wield it that way.
the feat doesn't care about how you use or are going to use the weapon. It only cares about what kind of weapon it is, kind of weapon is a weapon physical property and not a wielded/use property.
Slashing Grace is strictly about usage. It does nothing to change the physical properties of the weapon, it only alters how that weapon is used by the wielder.
when TWF you are using a one-handed weapon since you are wielding the two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon.
If the TWF feat instead said, select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your main hand and then select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your off-hand. When wielding these weapons in the correct hands you reduce TWF penalties.
This is because TWF isn't having you select a type of weapon but says you can USE a one-handed or light weapon. No selecting needed. TWF is usage of the weapon.
But the feat is a SELECT a QUALIFYING weapon feat.
Which when compared to mithral FAQ lets convert light, one-handed, two-handed to light, medium, heavy armor.
Now lets say you have a trait that works for heavy armor but not medium. Or a feat that says to select one type of medium armor to get a benefit from.
Would the trait not-work and the feat work? NO. The faq says that such things care about the physical properties. Same is with this feat. The feat says select one type of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor".
the feat doesn't care about how you use or are going to use the weapon. It only cares about what kind of weapon it is, kind of weapon is a weapon physical property and not a wielded/use property.Slashing Grace is strictly about usage. It does nothing to change the physical properties of the weapon, it only alters how that weapon is used by the wielder.
So how do you get usage out of this line?
"Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon."Nothing in that, to me, says use or wield or anything. using my post above converting weapons to armor.
"The feat says select one kind of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor"."
Now yes, the rest of the feat says, "when WIELDING your CHOSEN WEAPON..." But buy the time you're wielding you've already chosen your weapon.
|
|
when TWF you are using a one-handed weapon since you are wielding the two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon.
If the TWF feat instead said, select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your main hand and then select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your off-hand. When wielding these weapons in the correct hands you reduce TWF penalties.
This is because TWF isn't having you select a type of weapon but says you can USE a one-handed or light weapon. No selecting needed. TWF is usage of the weapon.
You are inventing differences of lanuage that do not exist to explain inconsistent application of weapon size rules to feats.
If a greatsword wielded one-handed via Jotungrip is a one-handed weapon for purposes of the Two Weapon Fighting feat then there is no logical reason that it should not also be a one-handed weapon for purposes of Slashing Grace and other feats.
This idea that there is coded language based on "wield" vs "use" vs "select" vs whatever has no basis and does not stand up to scrutiny.
So how do you get usage out of this line?
"Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon."Nothing in that, to me, says use or wield or anything. using my post above converting weapons to armor.
"The feat says select one kind of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor"."
Now yes, the rest of the feat says, "when WIELDING your CHOSEN WEAPON..." But buy the time you're wielding you've already chosen your weapon.
Construction is not relevant to how the character is using the weapon.
The character taking Slashing Grace is selecting a weapon that, to him, is a one-handed weapon.
when TWF you are using a one-handed weapon since you are wielding the two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon.
If the TWF feat instead said, select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your main hand and then select one type of light or one-handed weapon for your off-hand. When wielding these weapons in the correct hands you reduce TWF penalties.
This is because TWF isn't having you select a type of weapon but says you can USE a one-handed or light weapon. No selecting needed. TWF is usage of the weapon.
You are inventing differences of lanuage that do not exist to explain inconsistent application of weapon size rules to feats.
If a greatsword wielded one-handed via Jotungrip is a one-handed weapon for purposes of the Two Weapon Fighting feat then there is no logical reason that it should not also be a one-handed weapon for purposes of Slashing Grace and other feats.
This idea that there is coded language based on "wield" vs "use" vs "select" vs whatever has no basis and does not stand up to scrutiny.
The feat says select one type of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor".
The idea that my mithral medium armor that I "wield" and "use" as light armor cannot be picked for something that requires me to "select" a light armor has basis in a FAQ and stands up to scrutiny.
Thus when something says to select a weapon that has a certain weapon property you're limited by the actual weapon properties. When it says you can only use a certain weapon property with an ability, then if you can use a weapon as if it had that property then you can use it with that ability.
So how do you get usage out of this line?
"Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon."Nothing in that, to me, says use or wield or anything. using my post above converting weapons to armor.
"The feat says select one kind of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor"."
Now yes, the rest of the feat says, "when WIELDING your CHOSEN WEAPON..." But buy the time you're wielding you've already chosen your weapon.
Construction is not relevant to how the character is using the weapon.
The character taking Slashing Grace is selecting a weapon that, to him, is a one-handed weapon.
No it's still not a one-handed weapon to him. He's able to wield it as a one-handed weapon. If it was in fact actually a one-handed weapon to him then for him it only has 5hp. Since it's not literally changed to a one-handed weapon just for him and is still a two-handed weapon he can't select it for something needing a one-handed weapon selected.
|
|
The idea that my mithral medium armor that I "wield" and "use" as light armor cannot be picked for something that requires me to "select" a light armor has basis in a FAQ and stands up to scrutiny.
No, no that does not have basis in a FAQ. The Mithral Armor FAQ specifically says that when mithral makes armor a lighter category then you treat it as that lighter category for abilities. The exact opposite of what you are claiming.
For example; Barbarians can only use their fast movement ability in Medium armor or lower. Fullplate is Heavy armor. Mithral fullplate is treated as one category lower, Medium armor, and the Mithral Armor FAQ specifically states that Barbarians can therefore use their fast movement ability in mithral fullplate.
Nothing in that FAQ suggests that you can't treat mithral armor as one category lighter for abilities. The exact opposite is stated. Only purely physical aspects of the armor (e.g. how much space it takes up and what kind of enchantments can be placed on it) remain unchanged.
No it's still not a one-handed weapon to him. He's able to wield it as a one-handed weapon. If it was in fact actually a one-handed weapon to him then for him it only has 5hp. Since it's not literally changed to a one-handed weapon just for him and is still a two-handed weapon he can't select it for something needing a one-handed weapon selected.So how do you get usage out of this line?
"Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon."Nothing in that, to me, says use or wield or anything. using my post above converting weapons to armor.
"The feat says select one kind of "light or medium armor" and you're saying that because I can treat this "heavy armor" as "medium armor" that I can select it for a feat that only works for "light or medium armor"."
Now yes, the rest of the feat says, "when WIELDING your CHOSEN WEAPON..." But buy the time you're wielding you've already chosen your weapon.
Construction is not relevant to how the character is using the weapon.
The character taking Slashing Grace is selecting a weapon that, to him, is a one-handed weapon.
And we refer back to the FAQ, which says the exact opposite. For that character it is a one-handed weapon that retains the physical properties of a two handed weapon.
Weapon HP, weapon special abilities, etc. are physical properties and remain unchanged.
How many hands you hold the weapon in is not a physical property. That is usage.
Weapons have a physical property of handedness category; light, one-handed, and two-handed. This property is used to give you the default of how many hands it takes to wield and is based off of weapon size. This is inherent to the weapon.
Using a weapon can bypass the default hands needed to be something different. Meaning you can treat a two-handed as a one-handed when you wield it and for abilities that only work for you when you're using a one-handed weapon.
But how many hands you use with a weapon doesn't change the weapon's handedness physical property, which for one thing is used to figure HP.
Since it's still physically a two handed weapon you can't use it for something that requires you to select a one-handed weapon.
If the feat said, "select one weapon, when wielding that weapon as a light or one-handed weapon" or even "select one weapon, when wielding that one with one hand" then I'd agree that it works. But since it says, "select a light or one-handed weapon" it doesn't work, as the weapon is still a two-handed weapon physically.
The idea that my mithral medium armor that I "wield" and "use" as light armor cannot be picked for something that requires me to "select" a light armor has basis in a FAQ and stands up to scrutiny.No, no that does not have basis in a FAQ. The Mithral Armor FAQ specifically says that when mithral makes armor a lighter category then you treat it as that lighter category for abilities. The exact opposite of what you are claiming.
For example; Barbarians can only use their fast movement ability in Medium armor or lower. Fullplate is Heavy armor. Mithral fullplate is treated as one category lower, Medium armor, and the Mithral Armor FAQ specifically states that Barbarians can therefore use their fast movement ability in mithral fullplate.
Nothing in that FAQ suggests that you can't treat mithral armor as one category lighter for abilities. The exact opposite is stated. Only purely physical aspects of the armor (e.g. how much space it takes up and what kind of enchantments can be placed on it) remain unchanged.
There's a fighter trait that only works for medium or heavy armor. A mithral medium armor works for this because it is still medium armor, even though the fighter can use it and treat it as light armor.
Class abilities go off of new category. But proficiency, which is an ability of the class, doesn't swap. Medium is still medium regardless of what you treat it as.If there was a feat that says, this only works for light armor (like various feats found in armor masters handbook) we find out that those don't work for medium armor, even though the wearer is treating it as light.
The issue with mithral armor is different because it counts as one category lighter regardless of whether it's being used or not. So you can enchant it with Brawler because Brawler requires it be put on light armor and a mithral medium armor counts as light in and of itself. But if you had, say, a class ability that let you count medium armor as if it were light, that wouldn't let you put Brawler on your medium armor because it isn't light of in its own regard; only in the way your character uses it. So class abilities that are restricted to "in light armor" would work, but not stand-alone improvements such.
This is completely false do the the mithral FAQ. "and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling"
This is the same logic that governs changing a skill's key ability score; if you gain "all Intelligence based skills" as class skills, and use a feat that lets you use Diplomacy based on Int rather than Cha, that doesn't automatically grant you class skill status for Diplomacy because it only becomes an Int skill when you use it. Likewise, if you have a feat or ability that says you can use a two-handed weapon as if it were one-handed, that doesn't extend to the capacity to select it as a valid choice for some other feat or ability that requires you to pick a one-handed weapon.
This part is good and does also show what we're saying. Good find.
|
|
If there was a feat that says, this only works for light armor (like various feats found in armor masters handbook) we find out that those don't work for medium armor, even though the wearer is treating it as light.
Can you cite even one example where this is known to be the case?
For example, the Armor Master's Handbook actually says;
"Heavy Armor Tricks
...
Such armor tricks utilize the mass and heft of heavy armor, and don't function when you're wearing heavy armor that uses magic or materials to be treated as medium armor for any purpose, unless the heavy armor trick says otherwise."
So here we've got a feat that only works for heavy armor and we find that it DOESN'T work for heavy armor which is being 'treated as' medium. Again, the actual rules work directly opposite how you say they should.
Look, I'm done arguing against stubborn people that aren't willing to understand or explain why it's different. GL
So here we've got a feat that only works for heavy armor and we find that it DOESN'T work for heavy armor which is being 'treated as' medium. Again, the actual rules work directly opposite how you say they should.
Well, the argument here is that 'treated as' is distinct from 'wield as'. If you treat a two handed weapon as a one handed weapon, anything that effects one handed weapons functions for that weapon. If you wield a two handed weapon as a one handed weapon, it's still a two handed weapon, but as a special exception you can wield it with one hand.
The other problem here is that Slashing Grace references weapons as a whole and weapon type, rather than specific weapons or wieldability.
I have a thread here where I list out the contradictory weapon FAQs and try to get clarification; long story short there still is not a clear answer.
|
Yeah, I wish this more clearly worked for Kapenia Dancer. I had planned on taking Slashing Grace, but gave up on the idea due to the uncertainty. I just made it Agile, and that's probably what I'd recommend. It meant waiting a little longer (since it was PFS and I needed the gold/fame), but it meant I had an extra feat to use for something else.
(Actually what I did was dip Occultist, so I could put Agile on the Bladed Scarf when I needed it using Legacy Weapon, until I was able to upgrade to Agile. Now I can put Bane or my new favorite alternative, Training).
Yeah, I wish this more clearly worked for Kapenia Dancer. I had planned on taking Slashing Grace, but gave up on the idea due to the uncertainty. I just made it Agile, and that's probably what I'd recommend. It meant waiting a little longer (since it was PFS and I needed the gold/fame), but it meant I had an extra feat to use for something else.
(Actually what I did was dip Occultist, so I could put Agile on the Bladed Scarf when I needed it using Legacy Weapon, until I was able to upgrade to Agile. Now I can put Bane or my new favorite alternative, Training).
If it was a PFS issue, I would think you should have been able to get a ruling on it early on from whoever makes those decisions. Likely be far more fruitful than forum rambling without any developer involvement.
Though, with the changes/rulings on slashing grace NOT working with spell combat, agile ends up being the universally better option for a kapenia dancer. This is sort of depressing, because flavor wise, it makes MUCH more sense that it is her abilities allowing her to strike gracefully with the scarf than it is the abilities of the scarf.
|
|
CraziFuzzy - For PFS, it's only recently that the campaign team has started to issue clarifications on things that are unclear in the rules, and even then only under certain circumstances. Generally, they leave questions on the mechanics of the game to the design team. Which means a lot of times a question like this is left to the GM at the table to interpret. Since GMs change in PFS, you end up with a situation where something works at one table, but not another. I didn't want to deal with that, so I avoided it.
This was also before the errata made Slashing Grace not work with Spell Combat. So yes, Agile is the better way to go for a Kapenia Dancer, as it works for everything you'd want to do with the weapon.
for PFS I believe Training weapon enhancement isn't legal.