How do I determine what feats a weapon qualifies for?


Rules Questions


22 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 6 people marked this as a favorite.

How do I qualify what feats I qualify for with which weapon? Is it based on how I use the weapon, or how the weapon is listed?

Example: The bastard sword is listed as a one-handed exotic weapon, but can be used as a martial two handed weapon. Can I use a bastard sword with slashing grace?

Second Example: Can a phalanx fighter use slashing grace with a polearm that he can use as a one-handed weapon even though it is listed as a two-handed weapon normally?

We have two FAQs that suggest different things. One says the bastard sword is a one handed weapon here

FAQ wrote:

Cleric: Does a cleric, whose deity's favored weapon is the bastard sword, receive free martial or exotic weapon proficiency with the sword?

Since the bastard sword is listed as an exotic weapon, he receives the Exotic Weapon proficiency with the weapon, allowing him to use it one-handed.

and is then contradicted by this FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?

No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)

Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."

Which states that the bastard sword is actually a two handed weapon with an exemption clause.

However the position that a weapon is how you use it is also supported by the last FAQ on bastard swords which kind of cleans the prior two FAQs up in relation to the apparent contradiction:

FAQ wrote:

Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?

A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).

The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I italicized what I feel are the most important parts. The last paragraph especially since it specifically calls out other abilities that alter the handedness of weapons. This specifically states that how you use it is how you determine effects for the weapon, does this include qualifying for feats?

In other FAQ's we have seen that "other effects" include qualifying for feats, favored class abilities and archetypes as shown in the half-elf and half-orc FAQ:

Quote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

Even this is obviously not clear cut though because the FAQ on the titan mauler specifically does not allow the use of large two-handed weapons as two-handed weapons even though they are one-handed weapons for the titan mauler

FAQ wrote:

Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?

No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.

Update Page 30, in the titan mauler archetype, in the Jotungrip class feature, in the first sentence, insert the word "melee" between "two-handed" and "weapon."

If this is the case then I would submit that the answer to my question is: The weapon is how it is used for all effects including qualifying for feats and abilities.

Sorry I forgot a part:

The only other FAQs that throws this into question are the one regarding the lance

FAQ wrote:

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?

Yes.

and of course has it's own problems with this FAQ

Quote:

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?

If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.


the bastard sword is only a one handed weapon if you get the exotic weapons proficiency for it or play a tengu


Blackvial wrote:
the bastard sword is only a one handed weapon if you get the exotic weapons proficiency for it or play a tengu

OR you have another ability that allows you to use it one handed as specifically pointed out by the titan mauler portion of the third FAQ I listed and quoted.

Which again supports the position that how you use it is what it qualifies for.


False. The bastard sword is always a 1 handed exotic weapon. It just has a special caveat that it can be used a martial weapon if used with 2 hands.

Weapons have specific classifications.


Claxon wrote:

False. The bastard sword is always a 1 handed exotic weapon. It just has a special caveat that it can be used a martial weapon if used with 2 hands.

Weapons have specific classifications.

But that doesn't hold due to the second FAQ I quoted, or the third which specifically states it is how you use it.

Dark Archive

Yeah, from what I can gather the unwritten general rule is "Weapons type and handedness are determined by how the weapon is being wielded." Lances being a specific exception in that they count as two-handed weapons when the wielder uses the option of wielding it one handed while mounted.

Ex: Bastard Sword wielded one handed with Weapon Versatility(piercing damage) qualifies as a one-handed piercing weapon in all ways, if wielded two handed with Weapon Versatility(bludgeoning) it counts as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon in all ways, If thrown with Weapon Versatility(slashing) then is counts as a slashing ranged weapon in all ways.


It's a simple flow of logic:

If you do not have EWP(Bastard Sword), treat a Bastard Sword as a 2-h martial weapon.

That's the reason you can't one-hand the BS if you lack EWP, because the RAW states that if you lack EWP, it no longer counts as its default 1-h weapon but, rather, as a virtual 2-h weapon. You cannot wield a 2-h weapon in one hand (without special abilities). But it is still, at its base, a 1-h exotic weapon.

However, whereas normal 1-h weapons, like the longsword, don't count as 2-h weapons when a rules element calls out specifically using a 2-h weapon (ie. a Longsword, even in 2 hands, can's make a Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings), a Bastard Sword (and other weapons that are treated as 2-h if you lack proficiency) can still be treated as 2-h weapons even if you are proficient. It wouldn't make sense that it gets treated as a virtual 2-h weapon, but loses that ability once you learn how to use it properly. Basically, you make the determination on an attack-by-attack basis. You could make your first attack two-handed as a Pushing Assault, then switch to one-handed to make use of abilities that rely on using a one-handed weapon (ie. Slashing Grace).


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Helcack wrote:
Ex: Bastard Sword wielded one handed with Weapon Versatility(piercing damage) qualifies as a one-handed piercing weapon in all ways, if wielded two handed with Weapon Versatility(bludgeoning) it counts as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon in all ways, If thrown with Weapon Versatility(slashing) then is counts as a slashing ranged weapon in all ways.

I disagree with this interpretation of Weapon Versatility. WV allows you to do a different damage type, it does not allow you to treat your weapon as that damage type for any other purpose.

Or do you have a FAQ/Blog Entry/Designer post that could show me otherwise ?


Kazaan wrote:

It's a simple flow of logic:

If you do not have EWP(Bastard Sword), treat a Bastard Sword as a 2-h martial weapon.

That's the reason you can't one-hand the BS if you lack EWP, because the RAW states that if you lack EWP, it no longer counts as its default 1-h weapon but, rather, as a virtual 2-h weapon. You cannot wield a 2-h weapon in one hand (without special abilities). But it is still, at its base, a 1-h exotic weapon.

However, whereas normal 1-h weapons, like the longsword, don't count as 2-h weapons when a rules element calls out specifically using a 2-h weapon (ie. a Longsword, even in 2 hands, can's make a Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings), a Bastard Sword (and other weapons that are treated as 2-h if you lack proficiency) can still be treated as 2-h weapons even if you are proficient. It wouldn't make sense that it gets treated as a virtual 2-h weapon, but loses that ability once you learn how to use it properly. Basically, you make the determination on an attack-by-attack basis. You could make your first attack two-handed as a Pushing Assault, then switch to one-handed to make use of abilities that rely on using a one-handed weapon (ie. Slashing Grace).

So how you would say the weapon interacts with the transformative property?

If I wield it one handed I should be able to turn it into a rapier, but if I wield it two handed I should also be able to turn it into an earthbreaker.

The only weapons I shouldn't be able to emulate would be light weapons. If I put an effortless lace on it I should be able to cover the entire range.

How does this interact with other abilities that allow me to use a weapon one handed and other effects?

Examples include the Jotungrip and phalanx fighter, and again with the effortless lace.

The FAQs I quote state they are how you use them for effects, effects have been defined to include feats and racial abilities as well as magical items.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Example: The bastard sword is listed as a one-handed exotic weapon, but can be used as a martial two handed weapon. Can I use a bastard sword with slashing grace?

OF course, if you have the exotic weapon proficiency. If you do, the Bastard Sword is a one handed slashing weapon which is all you need for slashing grace. The feat slashing grace in no way cares if it is martial, exotic, simple or whatever. It just wants the weapon to be usable in one hand and that is does slashing damage.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Second Example: Can a phalanx fighter use slashing grace with a polearm that he can use as a one-handed weapon even though it is listed as a two-handed weapon normally?

If that polearm somehow is a one handed slashing weapon it would work with Slashing Grace. It would have to be usable one handed and it would have to do slashing damage. Seems simple to me.


There is a distinction made between rules elements regarding the weapon as an item, and rules elements concerning how the weapon is wielded. For instance, the DC to craft a weapon is different for simple, martial, or exotic weapons. Light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons have different amounts of HP. In these cases, it doesn't matter how you are able to wield the weapon; a normal Bastard Sword is always a DC 18 to craft and has 5 HP regardless of whether you wield it as a 1-h or a 2-h weapon.

Transformative is concerned with Shape and Handedness; that is to say, its qualities as an item rather than how it is wielded. So a Bastard Sword can only transform into another 1-h weapon. But for matters regarding to how the weapon is wielded (ie. Slashing Grace), the weapon counts as what you wield it as. If you can wield a 2-h weapon as a 1-h weapon, it counts as a 1-h weapon for abilities (but ceases to count as 2-h for abilities as well). So you could use Slashing Grace with a slashing polearm wielded one-handed via Jotungrip, but you wouldn't be able to use Shield of Swings, Overhand Chop, Pushing Assault, or other rules elements that rely on wielding a 2-h weapon.


I go by the entry of the weapon, not a modified 'treats as' scenario...

HOWEVER, if there was a published entry that said something like:

"Treat two-handed slashing weapons as one-handed weapons in all ways, for example, qualifying for feats..."

then that would override the general rule, as it would explicitly spell it out.

I'm a cautious player/GM, so if it is unclear, I err on the side of caution and stick to the restrictive approach.


alexd1976 wrote:

I go by the entry of the weapon, not a modified 'treats as' scenario...

HOWEVER, if there was a published entry that said something like:

"Treat two-handed slashing weapons as one-handed weapons in all ways, for example, qualifying for feats..."

then that would override the general rule, as it would explicitly spell it out.

I'm a cautious player/GM, so if it is unclear, I err on the side of caution and stick to the restrictive approach.

The rules don't need to go into that much detail; no need to make the book 12 metric tons spelling out every possible nuance. If it were intended to only allow you to wield it one-handed, but not count it as a one-handed weapon for any other purpose, it would use the Lance terminology and say you can wield it "in one hand". But to wield it one-handed or any congruous verbiage already means "in all ways"; it need not expand on that to be clear. Otherwise, as stated above, if you go by the entry of the weapon and not a modified "treats as" scenario, then the contextual feat or ability doesn't allow you to wield a Greatsword in one hand because Greatswords are two-handed weapons in their entry.


To update:

We now have at least two styles that further adjust weapons and what they count as and what we can do with them.

Spear Dancing Style (with the spear dancing spiral) allows for a polearm to be a quarterstaff for feats and abilities.

Ascetic Style allows a monk weapon to count as unarmed strikes for interactions with feats and class abilities.

How far does this travel?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

all the way ;)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Abraham spalding wrote:
Can I use a bastard sword with slashing grace?

If you have EQP with it, yes. The Cleric Deity Weapon is an example. The way you use the weapon doesn't change the weapon type, just the effects of you using it (STR bonus, "when wielding one-handed" effects.)

Abraham spalding wrote:
Can a phalanx fighter use slashing grace with a polearm that he can use as a one-handed weapon even though it is listed as a two-handed weapon normally?

No, because it is only a one-handed weapon for you, not for all. The titan mauler is an example of this point.

Abraham spalding wrote:
We have two FAQs that suggest different things.

They explain two different points, that you are conflating.

Also:

Abraham spalding wrote:
Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.

We know they eliminate discrepancy, and they have not in years. Can you see how there could be no discrepancy?

Abraham spalding wrote:

Power Attack: ... lance

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand

These two are also consistent. The lance is a two handed weapon with a special way to wield it two handed using only one hand. Other effects that use the phrase "wield as a one-handed weapon" modify how you use the weapon.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / How do I determine what feats a weapon qualifies for? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.