Chromantic, have you actually seen the table of contents for Bestiary 6 yet? Statements like "If Varklops is printed" and not being aware of the archdevils being in the book (they are mentioned in product description) kind of undercuts your arguments. It feels like kneejerk criticism based on hearsay not facts
I get people not liking Mythos stuff, but the GOOs literally take up 6 pages. The Horsemen, Archdevils, and Qlippoth Lords take up far far more room. Odds are, unless they decide to include the Paizo-created GOOS like Ogresh or Mnar, this will probably be the last GOOs to appear in a rules neutral hardcover Bestiary.
I have seen but not read the table of contents because reading a list of monster names is incredibly dull to me.
for the 3rd? maybe 4th time, I like the Lovecraft stuff, I just don't see why it needs so attention whilst vast portions of the lore are completely ignored. The fact other factions take up more room does not bother me in the least, because those factions aren't represented in other bestiaries.
My argument is we don't need another 3 GOOs in 7 before we see Protean lords, elemental lords, more Emp Lords, Eldest or demi gods from any other faction. None of that is undercut by me not knowing that there were 8 Arch devils printed (as opposed to the three I assumed) or that Varklops was printed as neither of these things have anything to do with my argument and actually strengthen it.
The good demi gods are under represented the neutral ones are barely if at all represented this new information does not change these facts but rather exaggerates them.
as for people saying its because more people request GOOs, well isn't that the point of this thread? to request what we want? I.E I don't want more GOOs so I'm requesting not to see that.
EDIT: Also I'm not exactly shore how the bestiary with GOOs could outsell the one with good outsiders given they appeared in the same one. And The popularity of APs is much more complicated than there were some GOOs in the back pages it must have been that.
I have seen but not read the table of contents because reading a list of monster names is incredibly dull to me.
I would advise being up to date before making sweeping generalizations.
for the 3rd? maybe 4th time, I like the Lovecraft stuff, I just don't see why it needs so attention whilst vast portions of the lore are completely ignored.
And for the third time, the attention it receives is not out of proportion to others areas of interest in the game.
My argument is we don't need another 3 GOOs in 7 before we see Protean lords, elemental lords, more Emp Lords, Eldest or demi gods from any other faction. None of that is undercut by me not knowing that there were 8 Arch devils printed (as opposed to the three I assumed) or that Varklops was printed as neither of these things have anything to do with my argument and actually strengthen it.
Actually, your argument appears to have been, in your words:
a few GOOs is fine but I don't see why they're becoming the most featured high CR catagory
Which is where I pointed out that calling them the most featured high CR category is factually incorrect, since in terms of "high CR category" they're hardly over-represented.
If that was not actually your argument, fine. But that is what was read to touch off this entire exchange.
as for people saying its because more people request GOOs, well isn't that the point of this thread? to request what we want? I.E I don't want more GOOs so I'm requesting not to see that.
Phrasing your desires as what you don't want makes you come off as negative. (I know, because I do it all the time, but when called on it, I do try to shut up and Let People Enjoy Things)
If your actual desire is not actually "fewer Great Old Ones" but "More Eldest, Empyreal Lords, Proteans," then that is something you can say without running into a lot of static.
It's when you say, "no more of this thing other people like a great deal" that you run into vehemence. How would you have taken it if someone had said, "a few Empyreal Lords would be fine, but I don't see why they're becoming the most-featured high CR category."
I doubt you would have agreed with it, even though, mathematically, those two categories(E-Lords and GOOs) have the exact same number of representatives in bestiaries- even spread across the same number of volumes.
I agree that other demigod categories need love. In particular, the Queens of Darkness, Eldest, and Elemental Lords all have enough material out there at this point that statting them up makes sense. I don't think we are there for the neutral races or other evil demigod categories yet (Although Book of the Damned should help for the Asura Ranas, Kyton Demagogues, etc).
As for why Lovecraft gets a lot of exposure? This bestiary contents were largely laid out and designed by James Jacobs, and I would be utterly shocked if a book by him lacked such entries (I am almost shocked we didn't get demon lords as well). Maybe if someone else gets recruited to oversee the next book we can get a different cast of high level creatures. I actually would love if this became a thing for future bestiaries, special guest developers among the Paizo staff (Wes, Adam, Crystal, etc), since I bet they would all have very different takes on the subject content.
I would like to see the following number of demigods in the next bestiary:
9 Eldest (only nine are known)
4 Elemental Lords (they are only four)
7 Kumaras (they are only 7)
3 Kami Lords (in addition, reprinted kamis)
3 Oni Daimyo (in addition, reprinted onis)
I want to know which traits would they have and what type of abilities should they be able to use.
Technically there are 8 elemental lords;)
Technically there are 8 elemental lords ;)
If they wanted to give us the four benign Elemental Lords as well... Unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to stop them... XD
Actually there are several Demigod level Elementals, but only eight that claim lordship over a single element. Considering Ymeri is only CR 28 she is likely not even the most powerful elemental demigod on the elemental plain of fire. Also, i was surprised that her type wasn't elemental.
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Actually there are several Demigod level Elementals, but only eight that claim lordship over a single element. Considering Ymeri is only CR 28 she is likely not even the most powerful elemental demigod on the elemental plain of fire. Also, i was surprised that her type wasn't elemental.
There are zero other demigods (as in, able to grant spells) from the elemental planes ever mentioned. There might be some unique or advanced (possibly with class levels) elemental creatures in the very high CR range, but there none mentioned who are actual gods except the four free evil ones and the (barely/recently mentioned) good imprisoned ones.
Actually there are several Demigod level Elementals, but only eight that claim lordship over a single element. Considering Ymeri is only CR 28 she is likely not even the most powerful elemental demigod on the elemental plain of fire. Also, i was surprised that her type wasn't elemental.There are zero other demigods (as in, able to grant spells) from the elemental planes ever mentioned. There might be some unique or advanced (possibly with class levels) elemental creatures in the very high CR range, but there none mentioned who are actual gods except the four free evil ones and the (barely/recently mentioned) good imprisoned ones.
This is incorrect. Feronia ia a demigoddess from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Now you know :-)
Actually there are several Demigod level Elementals, but only eight that claim lordship over a single element. Considering Ymeri is only CR 28 she is likely not even the most powerful elemental demigod on the elemental plain of fire. Also, i was surprised that her type wasn't elemental.
I'm sure Ymeri isn't the most powerful Elemental Lord of her plane, as she wasn't able to defeat her rival. However, the two are confirmed to be the only elemental lords of fire and demigods of their plane.
The most powerful or at least influential of the free Elemental Lords seems to be Kelizandri, and I suppose he is the CR 30 Elemental Lord - obviously. ;)
Can you please site where this is confirmed, I would very much appreciate it.
I would advise being up to date before making sweeping generalizations.
Literally the only difference it makes is that there are two more devils than GOOs they're still over represented, I still don't want more of them and there is no point saying I don't want more arch devils because apparently they already did them all. You can keep making out like this oversight undermines the point I'm making but it doesn't.
And for the third time, the attention it receives is not out of proportion to others areas of interest in the game.
Having equal attention to all demigods from the good outer planes and more than all neutral plane demigods combined is in fact out of proportion for a single group of representatives for a single alignment.
Actually, your argument appears to have been, in your words:a few GOOs is fine but I don't see why they're becoming the most featured high CR catagory
Apparently I wasn't clear enough. When I said high CR I meant the demigods represented in the bestiary. Pretty sure I already told you this. Though you do tend to stick to these technicalities rather than address what I'm saying so I don't know why I'm suprised.
Which is where I pointed out that calling them the most featured high CR category is factually incorrect, since in terms of "high CR category" they're hardly over-represented.
I mean they are over-represented, apparently including APs there is barely any material of theirs left meanwhile
0 Protean Lords in bestiaries0 Eldest
0 Elemental lords
That is disproportionate. The fact you ignore this does not make it any less true.
Also saying the most represented makes me factual incorrect in that point only, you keep acting as if because their are more arch devils they couldn't possible be over represented, or that I can't want ask for no more GOOs unless I ask for no more devils too, which wouldn't make sense when and thought there was three and is pointless now that they have done all eight. So are you just stuck on whats factual or do you actually have a point you're driving at with the devils thing?
Phrasing your desires as what you don't want makes you come off as negative. (I know, because I do it all the time, but when called on it, I do try to shut up and Let People Enjoy Things)If your actual desire is not actually "fewer Great Old Ones" but "More Eldest, Empyreal Lords, Proteans," then that is something you can say without running into a lot of static.
It's when you say, "no more of this thing other people like a...
I already said what I do want now I'm saying what I don't want. Thanks for the advice though. Totally fancied being patronized.
If someone said they wanted less of anything I liked I would roll my eyes and carry on with my day. Like I tend to do when people complain about the wealth of dragons in what is essentially dungeons and dragons.
maybe if I was feeling chatty I would ask if it was because the Ems were undertuned in book 4.
@Gold Sovereign
isn't there some confusion over whether the Kumaras are actually just the only 7 solar pitri around? Did I imagine this?
Can you please site where this is confirmed, I would very much appreciate it.
Yes, of course. You should grab a copy of Planes of Power and go to the first chapter "Unveiling the Elemental Planes".
After reading it, you will learn not only about the planes, but about the eight elemental lords and their conflicts - that ended with the imprisonment of the four benevolent ones.
There's no mention of other possible elemental lords. The history makes it pretty clear that those are the only elemental lords. There's no such a thing as "the only known ones" or "the strongest of them".
@Gold Sovereign
isn't there some confusion over whether the Kumaras are actually just the only 7 solar pitri around? Did I imagine this?
No, you didn't and yes you did. Actually, the Kamuras are believed to be the only seven solar pitris in existence or the only ones to ever interact with other races. There's no saying what they actually truly are, and by that I mean they weren't explored enough for us to reach a conclusive answer to this question... It's a matter left to our own creativity, I suppose. At least until we get an official answer to that question.
Can you please site where this is confirmed, I would very much appreciate it.
Yes, of course. You should grab a copy of Planes of Power and go to the first chapter "Unveiling the Elemental Planes".
After reading it, you will learn not only about the planes, but about the eight elemental lords and their conflicts - that ended with the imprisonment of the four benevolent ones.
There's no mention of other possible elemental lords. The history makes it pretty clear that those are the only elemental lords. There's no such a thing as "the only known ones" or "the strongest of them".
Thank you! I will go re-read that section right away. The source I was reading for Feronia is an older source but clearly states she is a demigoddess from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Early on Paizo was writing Golarion articles that were published in Kobold Quarterly. Those articles are official Golarion articles but they are pretty early Golarion lore and some of those topics have been since been updated.
Now I have a new question for you all:
Is there any creature you would like to see expanded into a new subtype/category? Just like what was done with the Kyton, the Rakshasa or the Sphinx.
I would like to see the Garuda, the Jyoti, the Peri and the Sceaduinar expanded into categories.
I re-read the first chapter in Planes of Power and I did not see anywhere that clearly stated that only 8 Elemental Lords exist. It does talk very clearly about the history of the 8 but does not exclusively limit them as the only demigods hailing from the elemental planes. I guess a demigod arising from an elemental plane isn't necessarily an "elemental lord."
Well, if it is from the time the ArchDevils and Demon Lords were supposed to be CR 30+...Thank you! I will go re-read that section right away. The source I was reading for Feronia is an older source but clearly states she is a demigoddess from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Early on Paizo was writing Golarion articles that were published in Kobold Quarterly. Those articles are official Golarion articles but they are pretty early Golarion lore and some of those topics have been since been updated.Can you please site where this is confirmed, I would very much appreciate it.
Yes, of course. You should grab a copy of Planes of Power and go to the first chapter "Unveiling the Elemental Planes".
After reading it, you will learn not only about the planes, but about the eight elemental lords and their conflicts - that ended with the imprisonment of the four benevolent ones.
There's no mention of other possible elemental lords. The history makes it pretty clear that those are the only elemental lords. There's no such a thing as "the only known ones" or "the strongest of them".
While Feronia is now part of the setting thanks to Inner Sea Gods, she wasn't mentioned in Planes of Power or anywhere else... :/
I suspected the Mother of Serpents - from Planes of Power, Plane of Fire - was actually Feronia, but this character is also a mystery.
While Feronia is now part of the setting thanks to Inner Sea Gods, she wasn't mentioned in Planes of Power or anywhere else... :/
I suspected the Mother of Serpents - from Planes of Power, Plane of Fire - was actually Feronia, but this character is also a mystery.
Well, technically she was already part of the setting when she was mentioned in the article "Dispater: Aristocrat-Tyrant of Golarion's Hell" by Wes Schneider
I think the thing is you can be a demigod level power on an elemental plane and not necessarily BE an Elemental Lord. So Feronia can still be hanging out on the Plane of Fire but not be an Elemental Lord.
I mean Hell has Asura Ranas and used to have Kytons to a much bigger extent. That doesn't mean that the Ranas and Kyton demagogues were Archdevils. They are there own unique thing.
On the Bestiary 6 wishlist thread I made a list of twenty mythical creatures I was surprised weren't in a Bestiary yet. Nine of them (Nekomata, Taniwha, Mapinguari, Gowrow, Cipactli, Rougarou (i put Loup-Garou but close enough), Rawhead, Kamaitachi, and Krampus) were in Bestiary 6. So that leaves the following as creatures I'm surprised haven't appeared yet:
1.Blemmyes (One of the most well-known creatures in actual ancient bestiaries. Has appearances in pop culture.)
2.Empusa (One of the most well-known Greek monsters yet to be used. Distinctive, and has appeared in God of War and Percy Jackson.)
3.Piasa (I'd heard of this one when I was six. It's in all the books on dragons, and is one of the most well-known of North America's monsters, with multiple third party write-ups for it.)
4.Sirrush (Popular dragon like the Piasa. Notorious for being cited as ill-informed "proof" of living dinosaurs, and has a large online presence. Was in 3rd edition D&D in a mainstream book.)
5.Gulon (Another monster that's fairly popular online, and one of the more well-known creatures from heraldry and medieval folklore.)
6.Pishtacos (It was on Supernatural, and is thus probably quite well-known. Grotesque, and one of South America's few well-known creatures. The Ghole, who's B6 depiction sounds almost word-for-word like it's Encyclopedia of Vampire Mythology entry, is a more obscure creature from most of the same sources. It has to be on the developers' minds.)
7.Yara-Ma-Yha-Who (Somehow this supposedly obscure creature has managed to end up on nearly every clickbait list of mythical creatures you've "never heard of." I would have expected it long before the Papinijuwari, and I'd easily cite it as the Australian monster I'd most expect to see some point soon.)
8.Telchines (Seems like one of the remaining Greek creatures most easily adaptable for the game, as a monstrous humanoid race. Has prevalent pop culture appearances.)
9.Carcolh (Another well-known "dragon." It even has a Pokemon based on it.)
10.Ushi-Oni (One of the most well-known Yokai not yet included. I suspect the devs might be reluctant to use it do to it not being humanoid like most PF oni.)
11.Hidebehind (A well-known Fearsome Critter from American folklore. Has plenty of pop culture appearances, but might be considered too much of a joke monster.)
I'd expect at least a few of those eleven in Bestiary 7.
I would really like to see Paizo's take on the empusa.
I would still like to see the hidebehind even if it is considered a joke monster.
Wannabe DL, can give descriptions of the other monsters again?
Blemmyes are humanoid, cannibalistic creatures with no head and a giant, toothy, face on the front of their torsos. They were common in bestiaries dating back to ancient Greece.
Piasa are Native American (I forget which ethnic group) dragons with four eagle-like legs, forked tails, bird wings, and manticore-like heads with antlers.
Sirrush are Mesopotamian dragons, flightless and resembling monitor lizards with elongated necks and legs, horns, and taloned feet. They were among the numerous races of monsters spawned by Tiamat to do battle with the gods.
The Gulon is a horrendous, obese, wolverine-like creature in medieval heraldry, and a symbol of gluttony.
Pishtacos (Also called Nakaqs, but more infrequently despite being a better-sounding name, at least to English speakers), are disgusting humanoid vampires from Peru who suck fat instead of blood.
Telchines are evil, marine, lupine humanoids from Greek myth. I think they fought Poseidon if I remember correctly.
The Carcolh is a French monster that is often depicted as a snail/dragon hybrid. (More accurately just a giant snail, but the draconic hybrid version is cooler.)
The Ushi-Oni is a yokai in the form of a giant crab or spider with an ox-like head. It's considered to be a very strange form of yokai.
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I always thought there was potential for like an evil twisted version of the twilight Pitri, embittered by their whole thing they have to go through.
Could be a unique mythic one.
Now I have a new question for you all:
Is there any creature you would like to see expanded into a new subtype/category? Just like what was done with the Kyton, the Rakshasa or the Sphinx.
I would like to see the Garuda, the Jyoti, the Peri and the Sceaduinar expanded into categories.
No one would like to see any creature expanded into a new subtype/category?
I always thought there was potential for like an evil twisted version of the twilight Pitri, embittered by their whole thing they have to go through.
Could be a unique mythic one.
That would be cool. I learned from the boards that there's a broken soul manu in one of the APs.
All those monsters sound interesting to me especially the Piasa, since we don't have any dragons with feathered wings.
I would also like to see Peri, Garuda, Jyoti, and Sceaduiner expanded into a category/subcategory.
Now I have a new question for you all:
Is there any creature you would like to see expanded into a new subtype/category? Just like what was done with the Kyton, the Rakshasa or the Sphinx.
I would like to see the Garuda, the Jyoti, the Peri and the Sceaduinar expanded into categories.
No one would like to see any creature expanded into a new subtype/category?
How about:
Manitou (A diverse class of spirits in mythology.
Yaoguai (Broad category of demons in Chinese myth)
Sasquatch (Has variations in nearly every culture)
Water Orm (There are tons of diverse lake monsters all over the world)
Taniwha (Again, ton of variations in myth, not all of which were CG)
Saurian (Who wouldn't want to see humanoid versions of other types of dinosaurs, like Spinosaurus, Ankylosaurus, or even Pterosaurs?)
Wendigo (Tons of regional variants, lots of diverse potential for horrific creatures)
Gargoyle (They certainly don't come in only one shape)
*pokes head in* Linnorms! And maybe a few more devils...
Yaoguai (Broad category of demons in Chinese myth)
Yeah, the one we got has a very Fallout-inspired vibe to it...
Sasquatch (Has variations in nearly every culture)
In fairness we seem to be getting that, just not as a "Sasquatch" subtype- we have the Yeti, the Orang-Pendak... plenty of room for the Yeren, Yowie, et cetera, assuming the distinction is reckoned great enough to justify a new take on it.
You can keep making out like this oversight undermines the point I'm making but it doesn't.
Only because your point appeared to change halfway through.
Apparently I wasn't clear enough. When I said high CR I meant the demigods represented in the bestiary.
You said nothing of the sort, hence my confusion. I quoted you directly, and the post I initially responded to doesn't mention this at all. Your post in response to my clarification likewise didn't really go into this.
I already said what I do want now I'm saying what I don't want. Thanks for the advice though. Totally fancied being patronized.
I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to offer advice on how to avoid future miscommunication of this type,since you appear not to have meant what you wrote as you wrote it. Given how personally you appear to be taking this, however, it clearly didn't go as intended. Mea culpa.
maybe if I was feeling chatty I would ask if it was because the Ems were undertuned in book 4.
This has been asked of various Paizo personnel on this board, and we haven't really gotten a clear picture on why... my pet theory is that "most PCs won't be fighting them, therefore tuning them up can wait" was the mentality, and then it waited too long or got lost in the shuffle.
I'd Like to see Couatl (Which sort of are nowadays) and Manitou expanded. I am sort of fine with Garuda and Peri being sort of one-offs
I am actually a bit dissapointed in the Taniwha. I think Taniwha would work better as either a template or a multi-type creature type
...or a multi-type creature type
One concept that was cool was the Dragonblooded subtype. Basically, these creatures had a special subtype that granted them dragon traits without possessing the Dragon type.
I love Lovecraft, but you are often stating various manifestations.
The Azathoth that writhes in the center of the multiverse is planet sized or bigger and stating it would cost you sanity.
2 of Narloteps manifestations could exist in the same room at the same time. I would like to see an entry of the 3 eyed bat thing.
9 dimensional? Scientists are up to 11 dimensions now, in trying to explain the cosmos.
I would like to see the hydralike Lamia that grants spells to atheist clerics and gradually turns them into Lamias. It's a monster of godlike power.
11 dimensions, do you have a link?
Here's one.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/11th-dimension
@Gold what was the broken soul manu called?
I'd like to see something more done with those guys with the lanterns of civilization and the chisel of something or other, whatever its called. The ones in conflict with those CR24/M10 guys that go round creating mini worlds then leaving them. Galatic conflict between two pretend god aliens seems fun to me. Maybe they have foot soldiers or generals or robots or something.
Only because your point appeared to change halfway through.
my point was always pretty clear, no more GOOs, more good and neutral demigods. The only things that changed was I said GOOs were most represented when there are even more Devils than GOOs, doesn't change the initial point I made. The high CR meaning Demigod thing only excludes one other group Kaiju. It seems to me like my point stayed exactly the same, the way I expressed it changed because you were fixating on a technicality which didn't actually effect the point I was making.
Notice how at this point you're not addressing said point at all, just fixating on technicalities.
You said nothing of the sort, hence my confusion. I quoted you directly, and the post I initially responded to doesn't mention this at all. Your post in response to my clarification likewise didn't really go into this.
oh really because this is sitting in my second reply to you
1. By high CR I meant part of a group of creatures that have CR30s and are demigods.
again the ignoring everything I say in order to serve your argument thing, super boring.
I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to offer advice on how to avoid future miscommunication of this type,since you appear not to have meant what you wrote as you wrote it. Given how personally you appear to be taking this, however, it clearly didn't go as intended. Mea culpa.
you realize you're patronizingly explaining how you're not patronizing me correct?
I haven't taken anything personally, you haven't said anything about me personally, except that I don't like GOOs, which is wrong but its not exactly offensive.
This has been asked of various Paizo personnel on this board, and we haven't really gotten a clear picture on why... my pet theory is that "most PCs won't be fighting them, therefore tuning them up can wait" was the mentality, and then it waited too long or got lost in the shuffle.
You miss understand me, I'd ask them if why they wouldn't want more was because the first were undertuned, not why the first were undertuned.
I read JJ saying that they were the only creatures from book 4 of the 4 above CR25 groups he didn't write and as such the creator of them seems to have missed the mark on what they were going for, with these bigger badder guys.
my point was always pretty clear
I think the responses to your initial post-not just mine- should indicate that it wasn't.
.Notice how at this point you're not addressing said point at all, just fixating on technicalities.
Because those technicalities are the only issue I had with your post. The rest of it, everything but the factually incorrect stuff, is simply a matter of personal preference. Why would I quibble over it?
again the ignoring everything I say in order to serve your argument thing, super boring.
Funny, that's what I see you as doing! Isn't text-based communication with unclear wording and no way to read tone delightful?
you realize you're patronizingly explaining how you're not patronizing me correct?
Hence why my statement was not "I am not doing that," but "I wasn't trying to do that." If you feel patronized, I'm certainly not going to say you're not feeling patronized. But I don't know how much clearer I can be about saying that wasn't my intent.
I haven't taken anything personally
1. Your initial response was an accusation of nitpicking in some way detracting form constructive discourse, indicating a defensive mindset, something one does not arrive at without taking things personally.
2. Accusing someone of being patronizing, particularly after they have outright said they weren't trying to do so? How is one to read that?
With that said, any future reply you make on this aspect of the subject is going to go unanswered by me, because it is plain that we're having some sort of communication failure,and if I haven't ironed it out yet, it's apparently beyond me.
You miss understand me, I'd ask them if why they wouldn't want more was because the first were undertuned, not why the first were undertuned.
Ah... I doubt this. Paizo has shown an ability to acknowledge and recover from admitted errors. Certainly, the three new Empyreal Lords in B6 sees to belie any such supposition.
(And THIS I will continue to respond to, since it's actually interesting, and not a self-inflicted semantic hell)
1. Your initial response was an accusation of nitpicking in some way detracting form constructive discourse, indicating a defensive mindset, something one does not arrive at without taking things personally.
2. Accusing someone of being patronizing, particularly after they have outright said they weren't trying to do so? How is one to read that?
With that said, any future reply you make on this aspect of the subject is going to go unanswered by me, because it is plain that we're having some sort of communication failure,and if I haven't ironed it out yet, it's apparently beyond me.
I'm happy to drop the rest but really I thought it was worth clarifying, you haven't upset me in anyway. I was defensive because I find when people are nitpicking on the internet and it I think they're quibbling for the sake of quibbling I'd rather shut that s++* down than talk to them sweetly. Hence I tend to be quite curt.
Ah... I doubt this. Paizo has shown an ability to acknowledge and recover from admitted errors. Certainly, the three new Empyreal Lords in B6 sees to belie any such supposition.
Oh yeah I didn't imagine they'd do it again, but I could see people not wanting any in case they did do it again. Or didn't know that paizo had admitted they'd gone a bit sideways with the other emps.
I'm glad they fixed em, Cernunnos having a charge action DC39 fort save or be sickened or exhausted or stunned for 1D4 rounds whilst Cthulu had a DC40 Will 300 ft save or die seemed kinda .. dumb. Who did they do for this one?
What Great Old Ones have been published? Also, are they main body or manifestations? Can someone with Great Old One blood have multiple Eidolons, and lose control of them?
What Great Old Ones have been published? Also, are they main body or manifestations? Can someone with Great Old One blood have multiple Eidolons, and lose control of them?
1. In Bestiaries, Bokrug, Cthulhu, Hastur, Yig, Rhan-Tegoth, and Umr at'Tawil (with that last one one grammatically altered to fit actual Arabis syntax, to Tawil at'Umr). In the Strange Aeons backmatter, we got Ithaqua, Mordiggin, Tsathoggua, Athlach-Nacha, and Xhamen-Dor- of those six, only Xhamen-Dor wasn't whipped up with Chaoisum's cooperation and permission, and thus, he's the only one of the six we might see reprinted in a future Bestiary
2. "Manifestation" isn't something Paizo's GOOs really do. They're all "main body."
3. This question's intent is unclear, given how Pathfinder has handled its GOOs
What Great Old Ones have been published? Also, are they main body or manifestations? Can someone with Great Old One blood have multiple Eidolons, and lose control of them?1. In Bestiaries, Bokrug, Cthulhu, Hastur, Yig, Rhan-Tegoth, and Umr at'Tawil (with that last one one grammatically altered to fit actual Arabis syntax, to Tawil at'Umr). In the Strange Aeons backmatter, we got Ithaqua, Mordiggin, Tsathoggua, Athlach-Nacha, and Xhamen-Dor- of those six, only Xhamen-Dor wasn't whipped up with Chaoisum's cooperation and permission, and thus, he's the only one of the six we might see reprinted in a future Bestiary
2. "Manifestation" isn't something Paizo's GOOs really do. They're all "main body."
3. This question's intent is unclear, given how Pathfinder has handled its GOOs
Actually, while they are not always doing it, some of them are able to cast astral projection at-will, right? That's almost a manifestation - not the real body. ;)
Or an I mistaking them for the Demon Lords?
The "Masks of Nyarlathotep" are pretty much separate bodies with the same horrible mind behind them.
I would love to see avatars of Nyarlathotep stated up as great old ones.
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Welp, my list just got a tiny bit smaller due to some of my wants getting versions in the Bestiary 6 so here's the newly revised one:
Agathion, Caprinal: Graceful faun / satyr-like humanoid Agathion with spiraling rams horns coming out of their heads. They cast spells like a cleric and can use their lay on hands ability to remove disease, poison, and fatigue in addition to curing damage.
Agathion, Loxonal: Eclipsed in power only by the Draconals, these armored, elephant-like Agathion juggernauts can rage like a powerful barbarian and possess a powerful trumpeting ability which acts as a holy word spell.
Agathion, Ophidial: Serpent-like Agathion that use their powerful psychic magic to defend the minds of innocents against forces that would twist them.
Alicorn: Occasionally a Pegasus and a Unicorn will fall in love with one another and the foal they end up producing is often this majestic and benevolent combination of the best of both species.
Archon, Sword: These humanoid archons are capable of surrounding themselves with a heavenly pinwheel that resembles the blade barrier spell.
Archon, Warden: These powerful archons oversee the prisons of heaven and possess an ability similar to the Deimauiggas of Hell in that they can permanently shift a creatures alignment one step towards lawful good.
Archon, Throne: Surpassing even the Star Archons in power and grace, lesser fiends cower when these archons unseat themselves from their flying heavenly thrones. Even greater friends feel fear when these heavenly rulers unsheathe their vorpal greatswords.
Cackle Bird: This large multicolored bird of prey seems to possess an excessive amount of feathers and it's bird call seems strangely like laughter. It possesses the ability to breath a cloud of gas that causes all who breathe it to break out into uncontrollable bouts of laughter (as hideous laughter).
Daemon, Mahaha: Daemons that are spawned by the souls of neutral evil mortals who died by freezing to death. They possess an aura of cold and can inject their freezing blood into an opponent.
Daemon, Makhai: Humanoid daemons with two torsos back to back with each other which enables them to attack more than one person. They are usually spawned by the souls of neutral evil mortals who died as a result of death in a duel against an opponent.
Demon, Asag: A demon known to demoniacs and scholars as "rock demons", they can slowly petrify opponents with their melee attacks and can glide through stone as fish swim through water.
Demon, Empusa: A demon known to demoniacs and scholars as "lava demons", they commonly serve demonic lords of fire and can heat metal weaponry that damages them in melee in order to damage the wielders.
Devil, Addiction [Atropocustra]: These insectoid devils spread the will of hell with their powerful narcotics, forcing those addicted to their drugs to serve the whims of the Archdevils.
Devil, Crusader [Ascensoriel]: These centaur-like devils act as advanced cavalry and elite shock troops for the forces of Hell.
Devil, Desert [Ghalshoaton]: Crocodile-like devils who bear a potent weakness to holy water and seek to tempt the inhabitants of desert kingdoms into following the will of Hell.
Devil, Hellforge [Savnogon]: These devils work the infernal forges of Hell, are covered in wrought iron, and reek of fire and brimstone.
Devil, Hunter [Edavagor]: These huge, two headed wolves possess rotting eyes and act as tireless plane-hopping hunters of lost souls and escaped devils who have betrayed the powers of Hell.
Devil, Physician [Paigeon]: Just as Contract Devils tempt with bargains and Cabal Devils tempt with promises of arcane power, so to do the Physician Devils tempt with promises of healing.
Devil, Rumor [Dababum]: These sinister, rat-like Devils exist to slander and ruin the names and reputations of the enemies of Hell.
Devil, Seduction [Lilim]: Created from especially wicked female souls claimed by the Whore Queen Ardad Lili, these seductive female Devils exist solely to tempt men with physical pleasure.
Div, Arszhenk: These gargantuan, minotaur-like Div ripple with muscle and seethe with barely contained destructive fury. They are often used in the armies of Div as living siege engines.
Div, Bushyasta: These small despicable Div are spreaders of sloth, insomnia, and anxious dreams. They often choose to haunt households of ordinary folk and are regarded by other Div as cowardly.
Div, Fulad-Zereh: These powerful Div look like large sets of fiendish armor covered with glowing runes and are eclipsed in power only by the Akvans. They are capable of being worn by other evil outsiders as well as mortals as suits of armor but almost always retain control of the wearer.
Dragon (Other), Meteor: These colossal rocky dragons are capable of interstellar travel and love to stargaze and seek out knowledge hidden amongst the various worlds of the material plane. It is advised to not anger them though as they can be selfishly destructive and bear devastating breath weapons which can take the form of a meteor shower spell.
Dragon (Other), Song: These benevolent, sinewy, shape-changing dragons love the sea, possess a cone shaped electric breath weapon, and can make use of powerful song-based abilities similar to a high level bard's.
Empyreal Lord, Ashava: Known as the “True Spark”, this divine being is capable of allowing the ghosts of non-evil-aligned beings to finally find rest and respite and often travels to many worlds in the Material Plane to give aid to multitudes of restless spirits who cannot find peace.
Gigas, Boneyard: Mysterious and inscrutable, these pale, gaunt, gargantuan giants are clothed in flowing red robes and go about a mysterious agenda that most Psychopomps aren't even aware of. What is common knowledge however is that they possess a completely unfettered hatred for undead.
Gigas, Elysium: These fair, benevolent, and courageous gargantuan giants serve (and even worship) the Elysian Titans and are perhaps the closest of Gigas-kind to their original Titan progenitors.
Gigas, Negative Energy (Necrophyscian): These skeletal gargantuan giants have rotting flesh, jutting bones, and a horrifically grotesque grin upon all their wide eye-stitched faces.
Gigas, Nirvana: Mysterious and mystic gargantuan giants that roam Nirvana, forever altering the landscape in kind and benevolent ways with their dreaming.
Gigas, Positive Energy (Lumigen): Devoted to the creation of life, these gargantuan giants of white hot flame roam the multiverse creating and enhancing life wherever they trod.
Lycanthrope, Wereraven (Template): These mischievous but ultimately benevolent lycanthropes have unique powers (including summoning and transforming into raven swarms) but they also possess a unique vulnerability to gold as well as to silver.
Lycanthrope, Wereape (Template): Bestial, chaotic, and destructive, these lycanthropes are even more primal than the Wereboars and are found almost exclusively in tropical jungles or islands.
Lycanthrope, Wereserpent (Template): As cold as the blood that runs through their veins, these lycanthropes are rumored to have originated via vile experiments on humanoids performed by serpentfolk seeking to transform other races into more of their kind.
Vampire, Strigoi (Template): The progenitors of the vampire bloodline, these primal ancestors to the vampires look like exceptionally beautiful humanoids and lack the negative energy drain ability their kin possess but gain the fearsome ability to mentally dominate victims of their blood drain ability, possess greater control over those they enslave, and are capable of rejuvenation when their remains are exposed to moonlight.
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We already have got 3 Angel, 2 Azata and 1 Agathion Empyreal Lord, but no Archon Empyreal Lord. That's why I would like to see mainly archon Empyreal Lords in the next Bestiaries. The following are the ones I would favor:
Arqueros, The Golden Bulwark
Damerrich, The Weighted Swing
Falayna, Warrior's Ring
Olheon, The Just Arbiter
Smiad, The Pitiless Dragonslayer
The archons are the celestial race that is far more about fighting evil them any other. Maybe we might see some tougher and challenging Empyreal Lords among them.
If there are going to be more of the angel and azata empyreal lords, I'm voting for Ashava, Soralyon, Tolc and Valani. Eritrice is the only agathion empyreal lord I'm interested in.
I myself would have preferred to present one new empyreal lord of each race per bestiary, a total of four empyreal lords per book. But I'm sure paizo has its reasons to present only three of them, even if it's in a rather random way.
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Here comes another of my new true dragons ideas, based on the apocalypse:
Doomed Presence (Su): Each dragon has its own effect. Area of effect equals 20 ft. near a old or older Doom Dragon. The effect will persist while inside the affected area.
DECAY DRAGON
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Base Challenge Rate: 6
Appearance: A dragon with its body covered in scars and wounds, his color is that of bluish gray rotten flesh.
Breath Weapon: Cone of 2d8 acid
Doomed Presence: -2 penalty on Fortitude saves and -2 Constitution.
Ability Themes: Necromancy, Bleed, Poisonous
DESPAIR DRAGON
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Base Challenge Rate: 5
Appearance: A ghostly green pale dragon, almost incorporeal.
Breath Weapon: Line 2d6 cold
Doomed Presence: -2 penalty on Will saves and -2 Charisma.
Ability Themes: Fear, Cold, Etheric
RUIN DRAGON
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Base Challenge Rate: 7
Appearance: A dark dragon, clad in blood red armor, with a mane of fire and burning wings.
Breath Weapon: Cone 2d10 fire
Doomed Presence: -4 penalty on Fortitude saves and -4 Constitution
Ability Themes: Fire, Destruction, Rage
SPITE DRAGON
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Base Challenge Rate: 6
Appearance: A dark brown dragon covered in spikes.
Breath Weapon: Cone 2d8 Force
Doomed Presence: -4 penalty on Will saves and -2 Charisma.
Ability Themes: Curses, Corruption, Favored Enemy
STRIFE DRAGON
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Base Challenge Rate: 5
Appearance: A gaunt yellowish pale dragon constantly salivating digestive acids.
Breath Weapon: Line 2d6 Acid
Doomed Presence: -2 penalty on Fortitude saves and -2 Strength.
Ability Themes: Swallowing Whole, Consuming Health, Fatigue
I'd like to see stats for the characters from Journey to the West (Sun Wukong, Zhu Bajie, Sha Wujing, and Yulong) and I'd prefer them in a version where they aren't full-fledged deities yet (though, if I recall correctly, Dragon Empires Gazetteer already established Sun Wukong as a deity.) They just need to be able to kick ass when fighting a group of high-level PCs in a barroom brawl.
I'd like to see stats for the characters from Journey to the West (Sun Wukong, Zhu Bajie, Sha Wujing, and Yulong) and I'd prefer them in a version where they aren't full-fledged deities yet (though, if I recall correctly, Dragon Empires Gazetteer already established Sun Wukong as a deity.) They just need to be able to kick ass when fighting a group of high-level PCs in a barroom brawl.
Yup, the Monkey King is indeed a deity. I believe the official Pathfinder story is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that he somehow made it to Pharasma's book of life and death that lists the names and dates when everyone in existance is born and when their going to die and in a nutshell, erased his name and date of his death. The goddess of death responded by making him a deity in order to teach him a lesson in poetic justice. Now Sun Wukong is immortal but he also has responsibilities as a deity.