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Hello everyone. Having a little problem understanding how Maximized and Empowered spells work exactly. I am about to run a game where an NPC wizard has both Maximized and Empowered Magic Missiles prepared. Now I have looked up both metamagic feats and will copy paste them here:
Maximize Spell
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Level Increase: +3 (a maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
Empower Spell
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Level Increase: +2 (an empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
I think it is just the wording, but I am a little confused by what all would actually happen. With Maximized I would think that my 7th level wizard would shoot 4 missiles each doing max damage (1d4+1), so 5 points each. No dice need be rolled. Empowered, I think I would still roll the 1d4 for each missile, and then take that result (1d4+1) and add 50% for that missile. I want to make sure I have this right because this game I am running can lead to a TPK if I am doing things wrong, and I want to make sure I play it fair. So if I have this right, awesome, if not, well then if someone can clear it up for me I would really appreciate it.
Each acts on the base spell. So you get the +50% Empowered from the #d4+1, and the maximized #d4+1.
7th level wizard gets 4 missiles at 1d4+1 each.
Empowered adds 1/2(4*[1d4+1]) damage =~ 7.
Maximized adds 4*(5) damage = 20.
To avoid TPK, you can assign each missile to a different PC.
each missile averages =~ 7, so you can apply to whichever PC is still up.
/cevah
Maximized and Empowered function differently.
Maximized gives all of your dice the maximum result. Empower increases the damage dice (and the bonus to those dice) by 50%. Both function independently of each other, but are added to the result.
Simply put, you roll the dice as if it weren't Maximized. You then take 50% of the total result, and add it to the otherwise Maximized result.
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Each acts on the base spell. So you get the +50% Empowered from the #d4+1, and the maximized #d4+1.
7th level wizard gets 4 missiles at 1d4+1 each.
Empowered adds 1/2(4*[1d4+1]) damage =~ 7.
Maximized adds 4*(5) damage = 20.To avoid TPK, you can assign each missile to a different PC.
each missile averages =~ 7, so you can apply to whichever PC is still up./cevah
Thanks, the module actually says to split them up between the players. Again thanks for the information.
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Maximized and Empowered function differently.
Maximized gives all of your dice the maximum result. Empower increases the damage dice (and the bonus to those dice) by 50%. Both function independently of each other, but are added to the result.
Simply put, you roll the dice as if it weren't Maximized. You then take 50% of the total result, and add it to the otherwise Maximized result.
Thank you :)
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Yes, the base damage would do max damage (5 per missile), with the empowered part requiring a dice roll. Also, keep in mind that the level bumps from both feats would apply as well, making a maximized-empowered-magic missile a 6th level spell.
In short:
Damage would be 5 (max damage) + (1d4+1)/2 per missile.
Thank you for the information. :)
To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2
this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
10d6/2 = 5d6
10d6/2 = 5d6this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
Incorrect. You take the total roll (bonuses and all, like from Bloodline Arcana) and then cut it in half.
So it would be:
And that total would be reduced by half, to 23, and then added on to a maximized result (70), to become a total of 93 damage.
**EDIT**
Here's a FAQ for confirmation.
10d6/2 = 5d6this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
The distribution is different, so the distinction matters.
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10d6/2 = 5d6this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
Incorrect. You take the total roll (bonuses and all, like from Bloodline Arcana) and then cut it in half.
So it would be:
And that total would be reduced by half, to 23, and then added on to a maximized result (70), to become a total of 93 damage.
**EDIT**
Here's a FAQ for confirmation.
Your FAQ has nothing to do with it being 10d6/2 or 5d6. All you've done is add 10 and no one is arguing you don't add 5.
It would still be 5d6 or 10d6/2 (which is 5d6). No one said you aren't adding 5 more because no one brought up draconic.
How is "increased by half" read as "doubled and then divided the second part by half?
It's 5d6
Fine, don't believe me, that just means I get to go to plan B.
The text of the Maximize Spell in the Core Rulebook, via the PRD:
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
There you go. The feat text says you take the result, roll it normally, and take half of the total and apply it to a maximum result. Therefore, "It's 5D6," is clearly incorrect.
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And 5d6 is not the same as 10d6/2 anymore than 17.5. is the same. As I said above, the distribution, and therefore likelihood of particularly high or low values, is different between the two.
10d6/2 is half though, like, by definition. That's what divided by two essentially means.
10d6/2 is not the same as 5d6 and does not give the same result
To give a non-mathematical example tossing two coins with heads worth one and tails worth zero and dividing the result by two does not give the same result as tossing one coin.
Tossing one coin gives either a 1 or a zero. Tossing two coins and dividing by two gives a 25% chance of 0 a 25% chance of 1 and a 50% chance of 0.5
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Guys we can stop. The primary question already answered. Thanks.
hehehehe welcome to forums, my friend. Valiant effort.
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Doesn't matter if it gives the same result or not. It's saying add half not add the full amount and divide. So that is a moot point.
But, again, the full amount divided by two is what half means. You're literally saying "It's saying add half, not add half."
its saying add half the "normally rolled result" (my quotes).
The "normally rolled result" is obtained from 10d6
Ok so by that reasoning you're not rolling anything extra. You're taking 10d6. Then adding half the RESULT of that exact same 10d6 back in again? So you roll 44 and add 22?
10d6/2 = 5d6this is wrong. It would do 60 + (10d6)/2To make it simpler, a max emp fireball at level 10 would do
10 d6 maximize and 5d6 more.So 60 + 5d6.
Incorrect. You take the total roll (bonuses and all, like from Bloodline Arcana) and then cut it in half.
So it would be:
10d6 + 10
And that total would be reduced by half, to 23, and then added on to a maximized result (70), to become a total of 93 damage.
**EDIT**
Here's a FAQ for confirmation.
Your FAQ has nothing to do with it being 10d6/2 or 5d6. All you've done is add 10 and no one is arguing you don't add 5.
It would still be 5d6 or 10d6/2 (which is 5d6). No one said you aren't adding 5 more because no one brought up draconic.
How is "increased by half" read as "doubled and then divided the second part by half?
It's 5d6
Fine, don't believe me, that just means I get to go to plan B.
The text of the Maximize Spell in the Core Rulebook, via the PRD:
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.There you go. The feat text says you take the result, roll it normally, and take half of the total and apply it to a maximum result. Therefore, "It's 5D6," is clearly incorrect.Half the normally rolled result? Normally you roll 10. Half the normally rolled is 5d6. If anything that's telling you it's not normal, and you roll half.
Are you saying it's better to roll twice the amount and divide then just roll 5d6? That doesn't seem efficient just to get the same result.
By that logic, whenever a player makes a successful saving throw against a spell, that means they only take 5D6 damage, right? No? So then why is this any different? Because again, you can sit there and say "Oh, you made the save? I'll just remove all of these 1's I rolled and keep all the 5's and 6's because I'm a jerk GM," and you'll be left with a result that isn't definitively half. You can even go the opposite way if you're a nice GM, or some other arbitrary method that probably won't result in an exactly half reduction, as a successful saving throw would allow.
Also, 5D6 isn't what's "normally rolled," in the context of casting an as-is CL 10 Fireball, which is what I'm presuming we're going with. What's normally rolled is 10D6. Maximize+Empower says you take the normally rolled result, which would be this:
And cut that total number (34) in half (17).
If we went by your inane and arbitrary conclusion, you'd have to cut 5 of those dice. Could you do that in this case and get the "half" number? Yes. But not all cases would be that forgiving or lucky.
There's also the factor of odd-numbered dice (say, a CL 9 Fireball), would you cut 5 dice or 4 dice? Or 4.5 dice, because apparently we're now splitting dice results in half too, which can cause equally skewed results as before?
That's why it's simpler (and much more accurate) to take the basic result and split it in half. And plus, that's exactly what the rules tell you to do.
Actually it would be simpler to roll the save then just roll 5d6, if you're looking for the simplest way to do it.
And then you're running into having creatures who do and do not make the save. So no, it's not simpler.
Well you did say player not players.
Doesn't matter if I added and s or not, point is that it makes a lot of room for imbalance (GM takes away all the 1's, keeps the 5's/6's) and doesn't fit the other precedents in the Pathfinder rules (specified saving throws reduce the total damage you take by half).
Even so, at no point did the rules say that you reduce the dice you roll, only that you reduce the total result of your roll, and people handwave it under the assumption that 10D6/2 and 5D6 are the same, and that is only truly the case when you look at things from a purely average perspective (i.e. every dice result is the exact same, whether you roll all 1's, or all 3.5's).
Subtle, perhaps, but most certainly different.
Actually the difference between 5d6 and 10d6/2 is substantial when you look at the likelihood of very large or very small results:
Rolling 5d6 will give the same average but a lot more very large and very small totals.
That's not what the rules say at all, however. I quoted it and asked where it says roll and then divide. It doesn't use the word reduce divide or anything like that.
In fact reduced isn't used, increased is. By half.
Empower Metamagic. I copied and pasted it above.
Yes, sure, that's all fine and dandy, but then we have the Empower FAQ, which states you increase the total result of your roll by 50%. So the standard equation actually becomes 1.5(10d6), and not 15d6 like everyone says.
But that's not how it works when you apply Maximize on top of it.
Maximize specifically states you take only half of the normally rolled result (constituted as the Empowered benefit) and apply it on top of a Maximized result if you use it in conjunction with the Empower Metamagic.
The specifics of the Maximize feat trumps the general rules of Empower.
Rolling 10d6/2 is not "simpler" but it does give results consistently closer to average while 5d6 is a bit wilder.
Basically if its a home game it doesn't matter. Do whatever suits you. The greater number of fails and near maximised results you get with 5d6 might even make combat a bit more interesting.
If it is PFO society your probably stuck with 10d6/2 because that is what the FAQ states.
Imo, While 1.5(10d6) vs 15d6 probably isn't a huge deal in terms of damage dealt, the ramifications of which method you use are quite important. For example, if I'm adding +2 damage per die rolled, which method the gm believes is correct is going to have a substantial effect on my damage.
For the record, I was always taught and have seen 1.5(10d6). I haven't looked very hard for it yet, but I could have sworn there was a faq that explicitly addressed this type of thing.
That is correct Gummy. 10.6 rolled and then multiplied by 1.5
Rolling 10d6/2 is not "simpler" but it does give results consistently closer to average while 5d6 is a bit wilder.
Basically if its a home game it doesn't matter. Do whatever suits you. The greater number of fails and near maximised results you get with 5d6 might even make combat a bit more interesting.
If it is PFO society your probably stuck with 10d6/2 because that is what the FAQ states.
Sure, but you need a rule that works for both odd and even numbers of dice. What do you do with a 7th level caster who is casting an Empowered Fireball and using a Rod of Maximize? A 15th level caster who is casting an Intensified, Empowered, Maximized Fireball?
Cavall, it is the result that is multiplied by 0.5 and added again. Not the dice rolled (which is pre-result).
The rules disagree with you flat out. For them to agree with you it would have to say 'half of the dice' or something similar.
It says 'half of the normally rolled result'.
You have to roll the dice, determine the normal result, then cut it in half.
How this works:
Empowered Fireball:
1) Roll Xd6
2) Total the dice roll
3) Multiply the total by 0.5.
4) Add the total from step 2 the number from step 3.
(Note: for expediency you can combined steps 3 and 4 by multiplying the total from step 2 by 1.5.)
This is effectively: (Xd6)*1.5
Empowered and Maximized Fireball:
1) Roll Xd6
2) Total the dice roll
3) Multiply the total by 0.5
4) Multiply the number of dice by the size of the dice to get the maximized value.
5) Add the number from step 3 to the number from step 4.
This is effectively: ((Xd6)*0.5) + (X*6)
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This might break some forum rules but I am just sick of this. The original post was not about maximizing and empowering the same spell. It was about the 2 effects being used separately. But for some reason y'all want to argue about something this was not about. No one cares here who is right and who is wrong. Get over yourselves. I am tired of all this and I want to delete this entire thing. Now stop all the idiotic arguing!
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I care who is right and who is wrong.
Being the creator of the thread doesn't give you control of the thread, I learned that the hard way too.
Nothing requires you come back to this thread if you have your answer.
If you're really against it then flag all the inappropriate posts.
You can always hide the thread or not check it anymore, and your idea really doesn't make sense because they could just make a new thread, and the conversation would continue there so it wouldn't stop anything.
Person1: You people are not allowed to fight there.
Persons 2 and 3: Shuffle their feet to move 3 inches to the right and keep fighting.
Random Observer: Yeah, that fixed everything he was complaining about. <sarcasm>
PS: That was for Paul
Cavall has it wrong, I'm afraid. The accepted and intended method for doing the math, according to the game developers themselves, is to sum up the normal rolls for the spell, divide it by 2, then add that result to the maximized portion of the spell to get your final sum.
This has been clarified several times over the years.
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Cavall has it wrong, I'm afraid. The accepted and intended method for doing the math, according to the game developers themselves, is to sum up the normal rolls for the spell, divide it by 2, then add that result to the maximized portion of the spell to get your final sum.
This has been clarified several times over the years.
There you have it guys. Done.