Just something I've been wondering. What are some of the best ways to build a character who wears no armour, yet fights up close and personal?
PF does not really support this well unless you have a way to get miss chance. If mirror image is on the magus spell list then you can try that. There are also spells such as displacement and blink that you can use with gish type characters, but those are short duration spells, and if you are casting defensive spells then you are not killing anything.
At higher levels more monsters get access to things like true seeing or blindsight which puts you in a really bad situation in melee combat.
Yeah....there's really no reason for any non-monk-ish or non-arcane character (the ones that actually get penalized for wearing armor) not to wear armor, or at the very least light armor.
Could you perhaps explain what you want to get out of not wearing any armor?
Because beyond being a arcane full caster or a monk, there's literally no reason not to.
I remember a really neat psywar/slayer/elocater build from the Dark Sun, Pathfinder Edition thread played by Dark Netwerk here on the boards (http://paizo.com/people/GorkhanTrask). Focused on keeping mobile, maxing Dexterity, and relying on powers and the fact that he wasn't the party's main melee combatant to keep him safe.
Just something I've been wondering. What are some of the best ways to build a character who wears no armour, yet fights up close and personal?
Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.
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Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.
The listed combination provides only DR 20/-, not 26. Neither Dragon Totem nor any of the powers that bear it as a prerequisite give DR.
Kensai Magus is the only "true" option other than Monk. Everyone else enjoys the armor better than being unarmored. I'd love a mundane unarmored fighter class.
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Just something I've been wondering. What are some of the best ways to build a character who wears no armour, yet fights up close and personal?
That is the epitomy of the Monk class. They're designed to be good and not require armor. That being said, you can easily get away with wearing Bracers of Armor +8, and still be a good frontline tank.
If you're absolutely opposed to the aspect of the Monk class, there is the Enlightened Paladin archetype, which is basically a Paladin with Monk stuff (and a fairly loose code of conduct; Lawful only requirement too). They'll get Charisma to AC (capped at class level), Saves, and a Ki Pool that scales based off of Charisma, as well as Unarmed Strike damage scaling based off of half your class level as your Monk level.
Dipping in UCMonk gets you Wisdom to AC as well, on top of that, Flurry of Blows (extra attack at highest BAB is huge), and Ki Pool synergy, but if you really don't want to dip it, it won't absolutely kill your build.
There's also having a ridiculously high Dexterity. Invest in either an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, or dip 3 levels in UCRogue to get Dex to Attack and Damage with Unarmed Strikes. I'd personally recommend the UCRogue (Sanctified Rogue archetype) dip, because not having access to a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists can really bite. If you're playing with Automatic Bonus Progression, this is a lot of headache and issue that can be avoided.
Otherwise, having Bracers of Armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, getting your friendly neighborhood party spellcasters to buff you with Barkskin, and so on, is still really nice.
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The listed combination provides only DR 20/-, not 26. Neither Dragon Totem nor any of the powers that bear it as a prerequisite give DR.
Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.
I meant the Dragon Totem line. The second one gives +2 DR for each Dragon Totem feat you have as well. With the three feats you get +6 DR, a limited Flight per day, and an good energy resit. It's not too bad.
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Sacred fist war priest, synthesist summoners are all good. Kensai magus can do it after using spell blending to pick up mage armour from wizard list.
Also a possibility for high level lunar/lore oracles. Especially Ancient Lorekeeper Elven Oracles, who have stolen mage armor off the wizard list. More applicable to lunar oracles who have given themselves over to beast form.
Why non-monk is it a flavored or mechanical thing?
You can always reflavor, take the unchained monk, take up a temple sword so you can flurry with a sword and consider yourself a swashbuckler, rogue, so on
Unless a class has some heavy mechanical restriction Cleric,Paladin-deity Druid-nature, no reason you can't change the fluff
Most notable reflavoring for me is playing a Warlord (Bard)
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I meant the Dragon Totem line. The second one gives +2 DR for each Dragon Totem feat you have as well. With the three feats you get +6 DR, a limited Flight per day, and an good energy resit. It's not too bad.The listed combination provides only DR 20/-, not 26. Neither Dragon Totem nor any of the powers that bear it as a prerequisite give DR.
Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.
The Dragon totem line has been FAQ'ed or Errata'ed (ill dig around to find it) to clarify that the "DR" was meant to say "energy resistance".
EDIT: Dragon Totem Errata
Also, as an aside, the invulnerable rager barbarian does not qulify for extra damage reduction rage power.
Wildshaping druids. Or does it not count if you have fur or feathers covering your sensitive bits?
Many of the 'armor' revelations for oracles don't look like armor at all, and most oracles fight in melee at least some of the time.
There's a swashbuckler / investigator in my game at the mo who refuses to wear armor. With the extreme dex when buffed and the opportune parry & riposte, his character handles melee pretty well.
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If you are looking for the "best" AC without wearing armor you're going to have to have at least a level of monk (or a "monkish" archetype) or play a synthesist.
Alchemists and Inquisitors can both make a decent go of it, especially if you make use of the various ways to grab spells from other class lists (but they can both wear armor anyway).
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Wildshaping druids. Or does it not count if you have fur or feathers covering your sensitive bits?
Many of the 'armor' revelations for oracles don't look like armor at all, and most oracles fight in melee at least some of the time.
There's a swashbuckler / investigator in my game at the mo who refuses to wear armor. With the extreme dex when buffed and the opportune parry & riposte, his character handles melee pretty well.
Wildshaping druids should be in barding.
I meant the Dragon Totem line. The second one gives +2 DR for each Dragon Totem feat you have as well. With the three feats you get +6 DR, a limited Flight per day, and an good energy resit. It's not too bad.The listed combination provides only DR 20/-, not 26. Neither Dragon Totem nor any of the powers that bear it as a prerequisite give DR.
Barbarian build focused around DR. Invulnerable Rager + Improved Stalwart + Dragon Totem (if you don't mind losing Pounce from Beast) = a max of DR 26 /-. You get hit but it just doesn't matter. It's pretty fun.The Dragon totem line has been FAQ'ed or Errata'ed (ill dig around to find it) to clarify that the "DR" was meant to say "energy resistance".
EDIT: Dragon Totem Errata
Also, as an aside, the invulnerable rager barbarian does not qulify for extra damage reduction rage power.
The first one I understand, but the second is quite the low blow to Barbarians...still since Invulnerable Rager was pretty good I guess its fair.
Anyway, as for Fighters without armor it all depends on what you mean by no armor. DO you mean literally, no armor, or just something super light like Cloth? (You should usually go for at least something like a Silken Cerimonal robe or Hamaki unless wearing armor denies you class features). Even if you do not intend to use it for much protection, having the armor allows you to enchant it with a variety of magical effects. Most GMs would probably let you just enchant the clothes you are wearing with those magical armor enhancements but just to be on the safe side I'd wear some kind of cloth armor regardless.
Otherwise, your best bets are classes that stack either Damage Reduction, Dexterity, or are not proficient in armor. A few Magus archetypes do not get armor, Barbarian is the best source of DR, a dex focused Alchemist can have so much Dex they don't need armor especially with the natural armor boost.
Another option is to just ignore your AC in exchange for healing, for example a low AC Paladin such as a scarred crusader with a high Wis and fey foundling can rock out some serious Lay on Hands healing instead of bothering with AC. As a Scarred Crusader, you can freely take the Extra Lay on Hands feat without feeling bad because you can convert those Lay on Hands uses into Smite.
You get no advantage for not wearing armor though, mainly just penalties. The above suggestions are all just the people who can make the best of not wearing armor. It would be nice to see an archetype of something, probably barbarian, that disallows armor but gives you scaling natural armor or something.
Iroran Paladin still prefers to wear light armor to no armor.
Another possibility I thought could be a transmuter type of arcane caster.
Wildshaping druids should be in barding.Wildshaping druids. Or does it not count if you have fur or feathers covering your sensitive bits?
Many of the 'armor' revelations for oracles don't look like armor at all, and most oracles fight in melee at least some of the time.
There's a swashbuckler / investigator in my game at the mo who refuses to wear armor. With the extreme dex when buffed and the opportune parry & riposte, his character handles melee pretty well.
'Should be' maybe, but the theoretically unlimited options can discourage people from spending on something for just one of those options. And I'm seeing nothing but a wand of mage armor on the character linked to Flutter's icon.
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'Should be' maybe, but the theoretically unlimited options can discourage people from spending on something for just one of those options. And I'm seeing nothing but a wand of mage armor on the character linked to Flutter's icon.Wildshaping druids should be in barding.Wildshaping druids. Or does it not count if you have fur or feathers covering your sensitive bits?
Many of the 'armor' revelations for oracles don't look like armor at all, and most oracles fight in melee at least some of the time.
There's a swashbuckler / investigator in my game at the mo who refuses to wear armor. With the extreme dex when buffed and the opportune parry & riposte, his character handles melee pretty well.
Flutter doesn't wildshape much, so she doesn't have a preferred combat form to fight in. She doesn't even have natural spell...
Her main schtick is running up to the monsters in the dungeon and bellyrubbing them with a standard action wild empathy. I don;t think she's made an attack roll in 10 levels. The mage armor is mostly for the critters she finds (OH! that high ac bullet attacked us> AWWWW.. he's such a good boy. here's a mage armor and a bark skin, if i gave you a pig would you PLEAAASE come eat the next encounter with us?) but it's also good on monks (the other animal companion) , and the occasional irresponsible companion caretaker that doesn't have barding for their pet.
One of the reasons that barding is better for a player than it might be for the character is you need to adjust your stats with different combat forms: if you have one you usually stay in you can set your character sheet for that and use say, velociraptor even if kitty might get slightly more optimal.
Kensai Magus is the only "true" option other than Monk. Everyone else enjoys the armor better than being unarmored. I'd love a mundane unarmored fighter class.There are a couple of light armors that have no armor check penalty; the Kensai would prefer to wear those for the ease of enchantment and even just the +1 AC besides.
Wearing that armor for a kensai means you lose uncanny defense.
soo we need more archtypes to give ac without wearing armor? hmm does that allow you to have a higher ac if say you had monk ac bonus and then wore bracers +8? that wouldn't be good design i don't think. since you would be rewarded more for not wearing armor while getting no penalties.
[Shamless self-promotion.start]
So I made a book with archetypes you might enjoy.
One of them is the Torrent Duelist Fighter, which is basically an unarmored duelist.
To avoid making it simply have high AC while unarmored, I found another solution which was to give it more options to increase AC on demand at the expense of accuracy. This gave it a more unique feel, I believe. I wish there were more options like this in the game.
I remember reading about a "Savage Barbarian + Savage Technologist" Barbarian with VMC Monk in Secret Wizard's guide to VMC.
*Rubs chin* Well, I have a character whose build rules are weird enough that they probably shouldn't count, but I used the Mythic rules to get Enduring Armor. It's a 3 + Tier bonus with no weight, encumbrance, or max dexterity limits, so pretty much a permanent mage armor that gets better over time. Add that to a decent dexterity score and some other stuff, and they're actually doing pretty darn well without actually wearing armor.
The "Really High Dex Score" argument can also apply to Lunar Oracles who primarily melee in beast shape; they get to use Cha in place of Dex, so its pretty easy to end up with a high enough bonus that it is entirely reasonable to want to avoid the headache of getting barding and dealing with the max dex bonus penalties it carries.
Transmuter Wizards (with School Strike for telekinetic fist for good measure) also enjoy giving out naked beatdowns.
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Just something I've been wondering. What are some of the best ways to build a character who wears no armour, yet fights up close and personal?
Oh, there's several ways of doing that. The most obvious way is to use defenses other than armor class. It is important to realize that you don't need to optimize or max out your AC in order to be an effective frontliner. It certainly helps, but it's not essential.
So, any Magus, even without kensai: using Mirror Image, Displacement, and/or Greater Invis as your primary defense. In fact, other archetypes get a lot more spells per day, which helps.
Bloodrager (or eldritch scion / arcanist) can use bloodlines with the same effect.
Ninja, if you invest in ki points you can simply go invisible each turn. There's a mesmerist archetype which does the same.
Cleric of Shelyn or Cayden, love subdomain to make people not attack you.
Any goblin character with Roll With It to avoid hits.
Or if you want to go crazy, a goblin magus with a two-level dip in ninja, to get several of these options. I'm sure there's more than these.
@Azullius: That's still a Monk.
Oh, yeah, I just remembered - Kyton Bloodline Bloodragers have incentives to go unarmored too.
shaman - speaker of the past or oracle get a "armor" from revelation so no need for a real armor.
my barbarian is topless, and focus on grapple and DR.
badicly, in my eyes, it's all or nothing. if you cant get, with minor buffs to the top 30's, dont wear at all. no need.
Yeah, I disagree with this strongly.
There's no reason for a rogue/swashbuckler/light armor class to dump all of his money into his AC and neglect anything else, but there's also no need for him to completely neglect AC either.
While the main iterative or primary natural attacks might hit, the secondary attacks might be low enough to miss your AC. And any attack you can avoid is good.
I think following the classic 10+level for primary spellcasters, 15+level for the mixed types (melee cleric, swash, etc.), and 20+level for dedicated melee-er's guidelines work well for the most part, barring other special defenses (barbarian HD and DR, magus Mirror Image and Blur, etc.).
There is Kensei magus and enlightened one paladin that comes to mind in addition to barb or a number full casters like Druid or arcane casters. Personally I like Kensei most for this.
Kensai is at least as good at unarmored combat as a monk.
Possibly better, depending on spells used.
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Swashbuckler parry and mage armor works wonders, even if it's just a swashbuckler with max ranks in UMD and a wand.
My swashbuckler made it to 11th level in PFS with buckler, wand of mage armor, max ranks in UMD, and no body armor.
That can work - but you still would have been a few AC better off with armor.
There is Kensei magus and enlightened one paladin that comes to mind in addition to barb or a number full casters like Druid or arcane casters. Personally I like Kensei most for this.Kensai is at least as good at unarmored combat as a monk.
Possibly better, depending on spells used.
Not at levels 1 through 3 or so. And the sad thing is, they're better off wearing Haramaki armor, or an armored kilt.
But otherwise yes.
I've always kept Shield memorized, starting at 1st level, when spell combat is an option but spellstrike is not.
The main problem with an armorless character is that the Monk is the only class that actually gives a character any incentive to refrain from wearing armor. Even a wizard would see no reason to avoid at least a haramaki until he can afford Bracers of Armor +7. For characters with high dexterity (or equivalent AC stat, such as charisma for certain oracles), the armor should typically get lighter as the character's Dex (or equivalent AC stat) goes through the roof.