Sounds legit. Longsword with effortless lace is a weapon that can be finessed.
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Hm, I think your friend is right. While you might be able to finesse a longsword, it is not a "type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse". If you had a class feature or even item that would make all longswords finessable (which is totally a word - if not, it should be), that would work, by my reading.
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Agree with Derklord. A longsword is not a type of weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, even if you have some class ability, feat, or magic item that allows you as an individual to use a longsword with weapon finesse. Likewise, you can't enchant a longsword with agile, even if you can use a longsword with finesse.
Likewise, you can't enchant a longsword with agile, even if you can use a longsword with finesse.
I think this is wrong. A longsword wrapped in effortless lace is a melee weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, so it's a valid target for Agile, even if longswords as a weapon type can't be finessed and aren't a valid target for Finesse Training.
I'm gonna side with OP on this one. Adding Effortless Lace to a weapon is supposed to make it count as a light weapon for all the feats and abilities that apply to them.
it does, but it doesn't change longswords from not being finessable.
The ability says pick one type of finessable weapon. Longswords are not type finessable, even if this one specific one is able to be finessed.
then pick "weapons wrapped up in effortless lace" as the type
But the first line of the faq is "This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor." So while its not changing the category it is saying that its category is treated as being different in select circumstances. Adding Efforlace Lace to a weapon creates a select circumstance that treats the weapon differently in the same way that making something out of mithral changes the way the armor is treated.
But it doesn't change all longswords just the one. If instead you had an ability that allowed you to pick a type 1-h weapon and make it finessable then you would have something but the ability to make a single item of a type different doesn't make all weapons of that type different.
Looking at Mithril if you had a class feature that said "when wearing light or no armor" such as uncanny dodge for a rogue then mithril armor works. However if you had one that read "picky a type of light armor you suffer no Arcane spell failure while using it." then Mithril breastplates don't count.
Looking at Mithril if you had a class feature that said "when wearing light or no armor" such as uncanny dodge for a rogue then mithril armor works. However if you had one that read "picky a type of light armor you suffer no Arcane spell failure while using it." then Mithril breastplates don't count.
Except a Mithril breastplate for all intents and purposes *is* a type of light armor when the character wearing it has a class feature that requires light armor. That's what "counts as" or "treated as" mean in these contexts.
So while its not changing the category it is saying that its category is treated as being different in select circumstances.
I agree, but that doesn't change the problem at hand. "It does not change the armor’s actual category" is the important part, because Effortless Lace does pretty much the same thing as the mithral material.
A bard can cast in mithral breastplate because the class feature checks the individual armor the bard is wearing. On the other hand, the brawling enchantment checks the armor type, which is still medium. Likewise, you can apply Weapon Finesse, because that checks your current weapon, but not Finesse Training, which asks for a weapon type.
Sounds legit. Longsword with effortless lace is a weapon that can be finessed.
Sadly, Finesse Training doesn't ask for a weapon that can be finessed, but for a weapon type that can.
I"m with derklord and Imbicatus. While a specific longsword might be made such that it can be used with weapon finesse (by using effortless lace) longswords are still not a type of weapon the can be used with weapon finesse.
It's about the type of weapon, not a specific weapon.
Can I pose a related hypothetical?
If I have a character with 1 swashbuckler level and 3 rogue levels, would the rogues finesse training count for the heavy pick that is finesseable because of swashbuckler finesse?
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just did a test on hero lab and did it with a mammoth lance on a character added a effortless lace to it and was able to add agile to it i then removed effortless lace and was unable to add agile to the weapon.
Herolab is not a rules source.
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Hrm... Actually I made a build based around this idea.
Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Sentinel of Urgathoa 10
Be an Elf with Weapon Familiarity or Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Elven Curveblade)
Take Heavy Blades as the Weapon Training option.
Take the Advanced Weapon Training feat from Weapon Master's Handbook and select Fighter's Finesse as the option.
Take Rogue levels for delicious Dex to Attack and Damage for a Scythe.
I don't know if Effortless Lace really should count, seems to me like it's not "Real" enough if you will. But that's just my opinion.
EDIt: Forgot an important step lol
Hrm... Actually I made a build based around this idea.
Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Sentinel of Urgathoa 10
Be an Elf with Weapon Familiarity or Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Elven Curveblade)
Take Heavy Blades as the Weapon Training option.
Take the Advanced Weapon Training feat from Weapon Master's Handbook and select Fighter's Finesse as the option.
Take Rogue levels for delicious Dex to Attack and Damage for a Scythe.I don't know if Effortless Lace really should count, seems to me like it's not "Real" enough if you will. But that's just my opinion.
EDIt: Forgot an important step lol
I dont think advanced weapon training is a feat, i think it just modifies the weapon training class feature. If I'm understanding correctly, it would have to be fighter 9/rogue 3 and sentinel could only go to 8
I think the only case in which you could use something not normally finessable is like the Fighter AWT.
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I dont think advanced weapon training is a feat, i think it just modifies the weapon training class feature. If I'm understanding correctly, it would have to be fighter 9/rogue 3 and sentinel could only go to 8Hrm... Actually I made a build based around this idea.
Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Sentinel of Urgathoa 10
Be an Elf with Weapon Familiarity or Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Elven Curveblade)
Take Heavy Blades as the Weapon Training option.
Take the Advanced Weapon Training feat from Weapon Master's Handbook and select Fighter's Finesse as the option.
Take Rogue levels for delicious Dex to Attack and Damage for a Scythe.I don't know if Effortless Lace really should count, seems to me like it's not "Real" enough if you will. But that's just my opinion.
EDIt: Forgot an important step lol
Um nope.
Advanced Weapon Training Options is the name of the things you replace Weapon Training(s) with. Advance Weapon Training is a feat that was at the very end of the Advanced Weapon Training page spread. Probably could use a better name since it could be confusing but it is there and it is able to be taken at 5th level.
Probably could use a better name since it could be confusing but it is there and it is able to be taken at 5th level.
Definitely needs a better name cause it confused me but I'm on the same page now.
unfortunately the faqs for weapons are unclear and contradictory too. I have a thread here.
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Likewise, you can't enchant a longsword with agile, even if you can use a longsword with finesse.I think this is wrong. A longsword wrapped in effortless lace is a melee weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, so it's a valid target for Agile, even if longswords as a weapon type can't be finessed and aren't a valid target for Finesse Training.
It is a single item, not a type. Rogue's Finesse Training require you to target a type.
Likewise, you can't enchant a longsword with agile, even if you can use a longsword with finesse.I think this is wrong. A longsword wrapped in effortless lace is a melee weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, so it's a valid target for Agile, even if longswords as a weapon type can't be finessed and aren't a valid target for Finesse Training.It is a single item, not a type. Rogue's Finesse Training require you to target a type.
I know. I said I agreed with that in the post you quoted. My quibble was over Agile, which only specifies the weapon being enhanced must be finessable.
Personally i would allow it as it pretty much restrict the player to a single weird choice, which could be problematic to replace.
On the other end, go rapier or duelling sword both are finessable without too much of a issue.
Can I pose a related hypothetical?
If I have a character with 1 swashbuckler level and 3 rogue levels, would the rogues finesse training count for the heavy pick that is finesseable because of swashbuckler finesse?
I'd say no because Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't make one-handed piercing weapons finessable, it just gives you an effect that does the same thing Weapon Finesse does. You can not use the actual WF feat with a heavy pick. Kinda weird, I admit, but the wording for Finesse Training is surprisingly restrictive.
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of her Intelligence score as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.
Gonna actually say this might work you gain the benefit of finesse with those weapons. That would be a clear ask your GM case and expect table variation in PFS case but I could actually see this being allowed.