I'm pretty sure you're wrong about all of it.
The key thing in your strategy is "fairly flexible DM". I do consider myself fairly flexible.. Flexible enough to head off cheese by fine tuning text interpretations as appropriate.
This is a good example of the dangers of using an archetype like this without the inworld baggage it was designed around... the fact that you pretty much have to be a fully programmed Razmiran priest to have access.
yeah, that archetype is pretty broken
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Better link to the Razmiran Priest
This requires a rules interpretation that allows the material component to be "free". The GM is free to consider this as a way to convert a spell slot into something like "add the scroll's spell to your spells known and cast using a slot one level higher" type of effect. In which case the material component would be required. Since it isn't covered by the ability, you won't have anything to refute your GN's interpretation.
As a GM and player, you can assume that any GM worth a damn will head off any plans that involve making money for no investment cost, through whatever means necessary.
I'd let you cast spells on scrolls without paying a material cost, but the moment you try to start selling things that result from it you're going to find an angry GM.
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It requires no rules interpretations whatsoever. Scrolls material component costs are included when the scroll is crafted. You get to cast the spell without expending the scroll.
Whether a GM wants to include such things in the game may be a different question although Blood Money will get much the same results.
What you just did there is called a rules interpretation. I'm fine with your interpretation in your game. But we don't have a rule for how this precisely works, so you can't reject the rules interpretation that you get the base unmodified spell and need to supply the material component.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about all of it.
The key thing in your strategy is "fairly flexible DM". I do consider myself fairly flexible.. Flexible enough to head off cheese by fine tuning text interpretations as appropriate.
This is a good example of the dangers of using an archetype like this without the inworld baggage it was designed around... the fact that you pretty much have to be a fully programmed Razmiran priest to have access.
Okay but even looking at him as a 'deity' Rasmir atleast appears to be open the the idea of acquiring wealth through the sale of things and assume unholy water or raising dead for a low cost to cause adventurers to throw 4 thousand gold at them instead of the normal 5k plus casting cost. So that way he gains even more wealth. Might not break an economy that way but still insanely powerful.
Edit
Also in regards to a flexible gm I was more referring to allowing clerics to make scrolls of spells they have and count them as divine spell trigger items instead of arcane.
I would pretty much rule that since the scroll isnot being expended, the material components would still need to be supplied by the would-be caster.
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I haven't seen any other interpretations, just people nerfing the the ability as written.
I'll give you the two interpretations in this thread.
item’s spell occurs
The two interpretations are:
- This means the spell is cast and includes free material components because they are on the scroll.
- This means the spell is cast as if on the casters spell list and as such requires the material components.
What you just did there is called a rules interpretation. I'm fine with your interpretation in your game. But we don't have a rule for how this precisely works, so you can't reject the rules interpretation that you get the base unmodified spell and need to supply the material component.I haven't seen any other interpretations, just people nerfing the the ability as written.
The archetype is pfs legal so it would be good to get on the same page here
The requirement that you have to be a worshiper of an evil false god pretty much locks it out of the reach of PFS.
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Incontrovertible facts
absent more specific language that this is how the power works based on the interaction between the archetype and scroll rules.
We agree on the facts.
We also agree on "absent more specific language" part, we just differ on how that effects the casting.
So we are at table variance until clarified.
A similar mechanic is the use of False Focus to gain up to 100gp per casting. Animate dead with a free 100gp component gets you lots of skeletons and zombies. Masterwork Transformation with a free 100gp component lets you upgrade many mundane things by up to 100gp, so masterwork instruments net 50gp each, and there are many other masterwork items that are <= +100gp.
I think that RAW, the archetype does allow this.
However, the moment you start affecting party wealth, you incur the wrath of the GM. Stick to improving the lives of the commoners you work with, and it will generally go fine. Occasional party use might be OK, but don't bait the GM by using it too much or frivolously.
/cevah
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Stuff
Have you looked up spellcasting services?
Spell Level x Caster Level x 10 gp, for others to pay you to cast spells.
If the goal is just making money, as a 9th level character, casting a 2nd level spell should result in you being paid 180gp.
Or, you could buy a scroll of Bless Water (1st level cleric spell with 25gp of material costs, so 50gp for the scroll), and burn a second level slot (1 level higher than the 1st level spell being cast), in order to not use up the scroll, but still gain the Holy Water...
Being an adventurer is not about making money. If you want to make money in pathfinder, find a low risk occupation and get good at it.
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Incontrovertible facts
absent more specific language that this is how the power works based on the interaction between the archetype and scroll rules.
We agree on the facts.
We also agree on "absent more specific language" part, we just differ on how that effects the casting.
So we are at table variance until clarified.
Then allow me to clarify:
At 9th level, the Razmiran priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended. This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
Note the bold. You are explicitly activating the spell on the spell completion or spell trigger item *AND* it is explicitly the spell completion or spell trigger item's spell that occurs. Since we know how spell completion items work, there is no ambiguity here. But to further clarify that activating a spell requires no components lets read how scrolls work:
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
Oh look, the language in both even matches and specifically calls for activating the spell. And oh look, activating the scroll requires no component or focus.
There is no ambiguity here.
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Incontrovertible facts
absent more specific language that this is how the power works based on the interaction between the archetype and scroll rules.
We agree on the facts.
We also agree on "absent more specific language" part, we just differ on how that effects the casting.
So we are at table variance until clarified.
Then allow me to clarify:
At 9th level, the Razmiran priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended. This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
Okay, your 9th level sorcerer burns spell slot one higher than the level of the scroll...and attempts a UMD check, which if it it fails or succeeds still burns that spell slot...Yeah, this ability is highly limited.
So you could never cast more than 8th level scrolls with this ability. And to do so would require spending 9th level slots for the chance to cast them. Plus Sorcerers get their high level spells one level later than wizards, so at 9th level sorcerer, your only able to use this on up to 3rd level spell scrolls.
Yeah, potent, but not very overpowering.
I do agree, I think the material components would not be required for such a spell. I think they are covered in the wasting of higher level spell slots. And they still have to purchase the Scrolls (which include the Material costs for that scroll).
For PFS, a 12th level sorcerer is only able to manipulate 5th level scrolls with this ability.
I find it amusing that you describe a sorcerer being able to turn into a wizard with piles of spell slots who casts off all the divine spell lists and has a spell memorization time of however long it takes to pull out an item as not very overpowering.
Razmiran Priest is probably the most powerful archetype in the game. Heck, a Razmiran Sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds* in the game.
*more like "cluster of builds", since Razmiran Priest mixes extremely well with most other sorcerer builds
I find it amusing that you describe a sorcerer being able to turn into a wizard with piles of spell slots who casts off all the divine spell lists and has a spell memorization time of however long it takes to pull out an item as not very overpowering.
Razmiran Priest is probably the most powerful archetype in the game. Heck, a Razmiran Sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds* in the game.
*more like "cluster of builds", since Razmiran Priest mixes extremely well with most other sorcerer builds
Razmiran Priests are clearly intended to be powerful NPC foes, to be appropriately used by story minded GMs, not clever ways for players to get around the real prices of the most powerful magic. I would never ever allow this class to be used disconnected from it's background, unless I was connecting it to something as appropriately twisted as the cult.
Incontrovertible facts
absent more specific language that this is how the power works based on the interaction between the archetype and scroll rules.
We agree on the facts.
We also agree on "absent more specific language" part, we just differ on how that effects the casting.
So we are at table variance until clarified.
Then allow me to clarify:
At 9th level, the Razmiran priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended. This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.Okay, your 9th level sorcerer burns spell slot one higher than the level of the scroll...and attempts a UMD check, which if it it fails or succeeds still burns that spell slot...Yeah, this ability is highly limited.
So you could never cast more than 8th level scrolls with this ability. And to do so would require spending 9th level slots for the chance to cast them. Plus Sorcerers get their high level spells one level later than wizards, so at 9th level sorcerer, your only able to use this on up to 3rd level spell scrolls.
Yeah, potent, but not very overpowering.
I do agree, I think the material components would not be required for such a spell. I think they are covered in the wasting of higher level spell slots. And they still have to purchase the Scrolls (which include the Material costs for that scroll).
For PFS, a 12th level sorcerer is only able to manipulate 5th level scrolls with this ability.
It has several uses including getting spells with expensive material components for free at only +1 spell level, including Sorcerer/Wizard Spells like Permanency since Shamans with Arcane Enlightenment shuffling can turn any Sorcerer/Wizard spell into a divine spell of the same level.
Furthermore, it allows a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer to effectively have all divine spells (that bears repeating... ALL divine spells) available at the cost of buying a scroll and using one higher level spell slot to cast them. This is an unparalleled amount of diversity assuming the rules are being used for item availability. This is especially valuable for a Sorcerer, as it basically takes the concept of limited spells known and removes it while adding an incredible amount of diversity.
Finally, because the Razamiran Priest Sorcerer can use any divine scroll, for example using Paladin Scrolls to cast say Greater Angelic Aspect at level 10 out of a 5th level slot. This means they effectively get early access to a number of useful spells, several levels before either the Paladin *or* cleric could cast that spell.
Make no mistake, Razmiran Priest Sorcerer is incredibly powerful.
Razmiran Priests are clearly intended to be powerful NPC foes, to be appropriately used by story minded GMs, not clever ways for players to get around the real prices of the most powerful magic. I would never ever allow this class to be used disconnected from it's background, unless I was connecting it to something as appropriately twisted as the cult.I find it amusing that you describe a sorcerer being able to turn into a wizard with piles of spell slots who casts off all the divine spell lists and has a spell memorization time of however long it takes to pull out an item as not very overpowering.
Razmiran Priest is probably the most powerful archetype in the game. Heck, a Razmiran Sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds* in the game.
*more like "cluster of builds", since Razmiran Priest mixes extremely well with most other sorcerer builds
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer is pretty clearly intended to be a player option. I mean it's allowed in PFS and you can't even get Vivisectionist Alchemists in there. So your premise that Razmiran Priests are intended only for NPCs is severely lacking any substantive basis for making that claim.
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer is pretty clearly intended to be a player option. I mean it's allowed in PFS and you can't even get Vivisectionist Alchemists in there. So your premise that Razmiran Priests are intended only for NPCs is severely lacking any substantive basis for making that claim.Razmiran Priests are clearly intended to be powerful NPC foes, to be appropriately used by story minded GMs, not clever ways for players to get around the real prices of the most powerful magic. I would never ever allow this class to be used disconnected from it's background, unless I was connecting it to something as appropriately twisted as the cult.I find it amusing that you describe a sorcerer being able to turn into a wizard with piles of spell slots who casts off all the divine spell lists and has a spell memorization time of however long it takes to pull out an item as not very overpowering.
Razmiran Priest is probably the most powerful archetype in the game. Heck, a Razmiran Sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds* in the game.
*more like "cluster of builds", since Razmiran Priest mixes extremely well with most other sorcerer builds
It shouldn't be, given PFS guidelines for who and who a player character can or can not associate with or worship. If it is, it's probably because other restrictions of PFS won't allow these shenannigans, or the persons making the decision wasn't sufficiently anticipatory of player shenannigans.
It shouldn't be, given PFS guidelines for who and who a player character can or can not associate with or worship. If it is, it's probably because other restrictions of PFS won't allow these shenannigans, or the persons making the decision wasn't sufficiently anticipatory of player shenannigans.Razmiran Priest Sorcerer is pretty clearly intended to be a player option. I mean it's allowed in PFS and you can't even get Vivisectionist Alchemists in there. So your premise that Razmiran Priests are intended only for NPCs is severely lacking any substantive basis for making that claim.Razmiran Priests are clearly intended to be powerful NPC foes, to be appropriately used by story minded GMs, not clever ways for players to get around the real prices of the most powerful magic. I would never ever allow this class to be used disconnected from it's background, unless I was connecting it to something as appropriately twisted as the cult.I find it amusing that you describe a sorcerer being able to turn into a wizard with piles of spell slots who casts off all the divine spell lists and has a spell memorization time of however long it takes to pull out an item as not very overpowering.
Razmiran Priest is probably the most powerful archetype in the game. Heck, a Razmiran Sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds* in the game.
*more like "cluster of builds", since Razmiran Priest mixes extremely well with most other sorcerer builds
May I direct your attention to this...
The concept of archetypes first appeared in the Advanced Player’s Guide. With an archetype, you can further adjust and specialize a character to fill a more rarified role by replacing some of your class abilities with others that fall into specific themes. The archetypes detailed below all have strong ties to elements in the Inner Sea, but you can use these archetypes in any setting with similar themes and elements.
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The so-called “priests” of Razmir are magical charlatans—missionary servants of the Living God who spread his fervent devotion wherever they travel. Altered by Razmir’s magic, he can perform feats impossible for other sorcerers.
The archetype appears alongside a bunch of other faction related archetypes. The only thing that makes Razmiran Priest stand out is that it is utterly broken. There are no indications I can see that the Razmiran Priest is intended to be handled differently to every other archetype there.
On top of that, "Fake Priest" isn't exactly an original character concept, and in another setting this archetype would do fine flavor-wise for a PC who wanted to pass themselves off as a clergyman while traveling. The first quote would suggest that Razmiran is appropriate for any character following a similar group of themes to that of a Razmiran Priest, and the Archetype quote doesn't do anything to contradict it.
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Nope, its totally fine to raise dead all your friends with your level 11 razmiran sorc.
I think I covered this. Raise Dead is a 5th level spell. Sorcerers only get 6th level spells at 12th level. So you'd need a 12th level Sorcerer with this archetype to cast it from a Scroll.
A scroll of Raise Dead is 6,125gp. Characters can buy other Cleric Scrolls, but this archetype has rather huge limitations.
First, Raise Dead would require burning a 6th level slot. Next, you'd need one or two UMD checks. I know, the ability only mentions one check, but to use a cleric spell, you will need the minimum ability score for clerics to cast the spell. So you'd need Wisdom 15 to cast Raise Dead. If the Sorcerer lacks this, they'd need a seperate DC 30 UMD check (result-15=effective ability score), or this will fail. Next, you'd need a the other UMD check to cast the spell, which is DC 29 (20+minimum caster level for clerics with this spell). As I read it, if you fail either, this ability fails and you waste the 6th level spell slot with no gain. You can try again, but it would that all over again and another spell slot.
Second, I don't really see the harm in allowing PCs to raise dead. You can't really use raise dead in combat, and it has distinct limiations for application. So I don't really see balance being upset here. I also think there are much more fearsome spells that a character could be casting as 6th level spells, and this is not it.
And Third, Scrolls are not weapons. They can't be quick drawn. They aren't durable. And having lots of scrolls doesn't isn't going to make this class OP. If the Sorcerer wants to use this ability in combat, they need the correct scroll out. The more accessable the scrolls are, the more likely they are to suffer environmental hazards (or steal combat maneuvers). If the Sorcerer wants to burn high level slots to cast one or two specific divine spells in combat via this class feature, go for it. Most of the applications for this class ability will be out of combat, not unlike wizards using their spell books to memorise new spells. This is not a balance issue.
At level 12, Max ranks+Class Skill bonus + 24 Charisma + Razmiran bonus = +28. Throw in a 200gp ioun stone and the Razmiran Priest doesn't even need to roll. They autopass. If the RP gets a Circlet of Persuasion and a luckstone then they can cast CL13 buffs without any risk of failure.
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At level 12, Max ranks+Class Skill bonus + 24 Charisma + Razmiran bonus = +28. Throw in a 200gp ioun stone and the Razmiran Priest doesn't even need to roll. They autopass. If the RP gets a Circlet of Persuasion and a luckstone then they can cast CL13 buffs without any risk of failure.
And that's out of combat. Maybe it's just me, I do not see any balance issues in PCs doing things out of combat, especially raising the dead. Seems entirely reasonable for PCs to be able to raise dead PCs after tough combats. If me, the GM, really wants them dead, I can just kill them with a death effect and this spell is useless, or make a point of turning them into undead. Or just destroy the remains (or steal them). This spell has lots of ways it won't work. If I'm trying to make life difficult for the PCs, I have lots of options and if I'm trying to have encounters balanced for the party, it pays to have the party at full strength - a party of 2 dead adventures and 2 living does not include the 2 dead members for calculating CR of encounters.
In combat, I expect a full-round action to get a scroll out of your waterproof container. I think you can hold a single scroll per hand, if you want to be able to use them in combat. And scrolls are definitely considered combustibles. So, if the sorcerer wants to burn +1 level slots, to cast 1 of 2 weaker spells resolved at minimum caster level and DC, let them. That does not seem unbalanced. If anything, seems like a handicap for the sorcerer so they can play pretend cleric.
On a side note, as GM, I can totally add modifiers to UMD checks, if I want to. Especially for scroll reading, as that is affected by visiblity of the scroll, and by weather affects (like wind level). I probably wouldn't, but if it became an issue, I would make sure the PC had to at least roll the UMD checks with a chance of failure.