0 > -1
0 > -2
0 > -3
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I started a similar thread regarding Diehard.
I believe it's completely asinine that any amount of non-lethal can cancel these options out. A trolls claws can't take you down but a pack of preschoolers can?
I started a similar thread regarding Diehard.
I believe it's completely asinine that any amount of non-lethal can cancel these options out. A trolls claws can't take you down but a pack of preschoolers can?
Even more wackily, while they are on their last legs giving a ferocious/diehard creature a light smack to the noggin is far more effective at polishing them off than stabbing them .
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I started a similar thread regarding Diehard.
I believe it's completely asinine that any amount of non-lethal can cancel these options out. A trolls claws can't take you down but a pack of preschoolers can?
Even more wackily, while they are on their last legs giving a ferocious/diehard creature a light smack to the noggin is far more effective at polishing them off than stabbing them .
Which if you're playing the Three Stooges is fine, but anything else is absolutely absurd.
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Some recurring incompetent goblin NPCs that kept getting inexplicably hired in random professions in PFS would be amazing.Which if you're playing the Three Stooges is fine, but anything else is absolutely absurd.I started a similar thread regarding Diehard.
I believe it's completely asinine that any amount of non-lethal can cancel these options out. A trolls claws can't take you down but a pack of preschoolers can?
Even more wackily, while they are on their last legs giving a ferocious/diehard creature a light smack to the noggin is far more effective at polishing them off than stabbing them .
O M G
WHY IS THIS NOT A THING?!?!
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Yes. That is how it works.
Ferocity is a show of just how tenaciously you cling to life, but it doesn't account for how bludgeoned and bruised you are.
Consider it a bleeding out vs a being entirely worn out.
If you want to keep going while under nonleathal damage, consider the feat Flagellant
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 212
You have learned to ignore the effects of pain through long years of exposure to it.Prerequisites: Endurance, character level 7th, worshiper of Zon-Kuthon.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain effects. Also, you suffer no adverse effect when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, and you become staggered when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points. You never fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage.
Normal: When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you become staggered. When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
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No, that is not how it works. Because that is incredibly stupid.
Just because something seems stupid does not mean that isn't how it works.
Seems like a reasonable way to do it, _Ozy_.
Just because something seems stupid does not mean that isn't how it works.
That's why there is RAW and RAI. Granted, this is best described as the RAW forum. ;)
Bring it up with your GM early on. Keep in mind that nonlethal from a Kineticist's burn overrides anything like this since its effects can't be mitigated.
Many people house rule that creatures with diehard, ferocity, etc... add their con score to their HP for purposes of adjudicating non-lethal damage.
A sensible house rule.
After all, while Diehard and Ferocity shouldn't be negated by non-lethal, neither should non-lethal be negated by Diehard and Ferocity.Keep in mind that nonlethal from a Kineticist's burn overrides anything like this since its effects can't be mitigated.
*sigh* So true. Really nuked my idea of making my PFS barbarian who's archetype got banned after three years of it being legal into a Kineticist, since the Deathless tree is totally incompatible...
I have to agree RAW that is how it works. I am not sure that was the intended result however.
After all, while Diehard and Ferocity shouldn't be negated by non-lethal, neither should non-lethal be negated by Diehard and Ferocity.
Unless you fundamentally change how they work, e.g., creatures with ferocity are not affected by NL damage, which seems extreme, IMO. I'm not even sure a FAQ entry can help this conundrum since the 2 concepts are really at odds with each other.
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No, that is not how it works. Because that is incredibly stupid.
Wait, we can just say that now? This is going to be so much more efficient!!!
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Knock yourself out.No, that is not how it works. Because that is incredibly stupid.Wait, we can just say that now? This is going to be so much more efficient!!!
By taking one point of nonlethal damage?
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NOKnock yourself out.By taking one point of nonlethal damage?
I dunno. I'm not very sturdy. One point might do it.
I have not came across this issue with ferocity and non-lethal damage, until tonight.
I had a group starting a campaign and they were being tracked by some orcs. The orcs tracked through the night, but the party settled in against the snow storm. The following morning, the orcs arrived, though worn from the cold weather and fatigue. I assigned them each 5 non-lethal damage. Once things came to blows, I realized that ferocity and non-lethal do not make any sense together, as others have noticed.
The party's rogue flanked and dropped one of the orcs to -3 with a critical and sneak attack combination. The orc having -3 hit points and 5 non-lethal hurt my brain.
At last, I decided to say that the orc's con score of 11 would allot it an extra 11 points until non-lethal would take effect.
That sounds all well and good, but what is the point in non-lethal for creatures with ferocity?
Scenario Time
Orc stats hit points 9. Con 11
Let's just say that the orc can attain 19 points of non-lethal damage before becoming staggered and 20+ before falling unconscious. As per the RAW, non-lethal damage says that when you have attained your maximum hit points (not current) in non-lethal damage any further non-lethal damage is considered to be lethal damage, instead. So, if you are punching the orc and he reached 9 he is fine because of ferocity, according to RAI. Though, every non-lethal damage attained thereafter is lethal instead?
Have any of the threads on the topic cleared this up?
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Yes. We have cleared up that there is still no clarity on the subject.
RAW, Ferocity and Diehard still shut off from one point of nonlethal damage. And this is, as was said earlier, "incredibly stupid". So I don't foresee many GMs running it that way, unless it was PFS and they had to.
Still no FAQ from Paizo on the topic...
To be fair, there's joke material in the newer books now too, after some 'balance changes', so it's not so surprising.
Does it make any more sense that Diehard and Ferocity don't work at all? That they were added into the rule book, taking up precious page space, just as a joke? The fact of the matter is that Ferocity explicitly states, "you don't fall unconscious even from negative HP." It doesn't say, "you don't fall unconscious from negative HP," it gives a blanket immunity and additionally clarifies that this even applies to unconsciousness from having negative HP. That means, without a doubt, that it protects you from unconsciousness from any and all sources. Diehard requires a little bit more mental agility to understand it, but it ends up in the same place; you don't suffer a condition that is defined by being stable and unconscious (dying) and, instead, you suffer from a pair of states that both are defined by being stable and conscious (disabled and staggered).No, it doesn't make sense at all. If it gave you adrenaline, you wouldn't still be staggered.
And what about immunity to sleep spells?
You mean like the original prone shooter?
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I just want a straight answer is all. Does Diehard make you immune to the sleep spell?Does it make any more sense that Diehard and Ferocity don't work at all? That they were added into the rule book, taking up precious page space, just as a joke? The fact of the matter is that Ferocity explicitly states, "you don't fall unconscious even from negative HP." It doesn't say, "you don't fall unconscious from negative HP," it gives a blanket immunity and additionally clarifies that this even applies to unconsciousness from having negative HP. That means, without a doubt, that it protects you from unconsciousness from any and all sources. Diehard requires a little bit more mental agility to understand it, but it ends up in the same place; you don't suffer a condition that is defined by being stable and unconscious (dying) and, instead, you suffer from a pair of states that both are defined by being stable and conscious (disabled and staggered).No, it doesn't make sense at all. If it gave you adrenaline, you wouldn't still be staggered.
And what about immunity to sleep spells?
No.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
You can choose to act disabled instead of dying if below negative HP. It would not negate being unconscious from a different effect such as a sleep spell.
I can't find a description of ferocity which states "you don't fall unconscious even from negative HP"
The monster ability is:
Ferocity (Ex) A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.While the half-orc ability is:
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Both of which let you remain conscious and continue fighting if below 0 hp. It doesn't say it negates any other conditions which would apply unconsciousness, so while you can remain conscious due to being below 0 hp (which normally makes you dying) you don't get to ignore other effects such a sleep spell.
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"A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0."
It says it because normally a creature is unconscious when its hit points are below 0. It doesn't say, "is conscious regardless of any other effect."
No
Kazaan, by your interpretation the character can no longer sleep at all. They will permanently suffer exhaustion, never regain daily resources, and all ability damage must be cured magically.
It seems more reasonable to interpret the feat as not preventing sleep.
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The definition of unconscious does not include sleeping. There is no clear definition of sleeping. However, the sleep spell never states it renders you unconscious.
At the risk of invoking the dreaded Real Life, IRL unconscious and asleep are two very different things. Why shouldn't they be so in game as well?
Great point GinoA. The glossary gives us the unconscious condition.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
It is perfectly reasonable for diehard to make you able to stay conscious as defined in the glossary. It even resolves the issue that started this thread where you could act while in negative hitpoints but are knocked out by 1 point of non-lethal.