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I'm designing an elf character who starts with a level of Trapper Ranger and then takes an arcane spellcasting class to qualify for Eldritch Knight, but I'm not sure whether to take Arcanist or Wizard. Wizard will work well for this, I know, but Wizard tends to dominate in your basic gish builds anyway. Does Arcanist bring anything interesting to the table that might make me pick it instead? Or would it be too weak compared to the wizard that I end up being a load on a hypothetical party?
Blade Adept Arcanist gives you a Black Blade (as the magus archetype), with the powers being equal to your Arcanist level.
However:
A blade adept can select from the following additional exploits.
Eldritch Blade: A blade adept with this exploit uses her caster level instead of her class level for the purpose of advancing her bonded sword’s powers.
Yeah, I just realized that you won't have 3rd level spells until 6th level Arcanist (7th character level), and don't get an exploit until 7th level Arcanist.
That pushes you back to your first EK level to character level 9th if you want the full Black Blade progression.
I retract my previous advice.
In general, Arcanist wants the exploits. Advancing as an Eldrich Knight does not increase your Arcane Pool nor does it give exploits.
I think that wizard would be much stronger for this build.
I thought the general consensus of the boards was that the Blade Adept sucks?
That's mostly from people who don't notice you can advance the blade by caster level with an exploit. Not to say it's an amazing archetype. It just doesn't "suck".
Well the most direct advice you can get is to not multiclass to create a Warrior-Caster, but to pick a solo class designed as that like the Magus. The Eldritch knight and pretty much all other prestige classes are outdated. Just picking them you lose out on your original class features.
You lose out massively on multiclassing a Caster class as later on you get amazing spells, while your physical abilities will never reach the point of a genuine physical class either.
The Arcanists has a fair few awesome abilties, and multiclassing limits them quite a bit. The Elf favored class bonus for the Arcanist can almost double your maximum Arcane points.
To note there is another thread about the Wizard, Arcanist, and Sorcerer comparison.
I thought the general consensus of the boards was that the Blade Adept sucks?
This is because generally 1/2BAB classes don't like using weapons. It is one of the best EK options though.
EK is better than magus only in terms of flexibility. It has a huge spell list, a decent BAB, and 9 levels of spells. If you know you will hit higher levels it can be very strong overall. It just has an awkward phase at around lv 4-8 where you are half the caster you could be and half the fighter you could be.
If you want a free scaling magic weapon which you can deliver touch spells through, pick arcanist. If you want to be done with the awkward phase of EK faster, go wizard. If you want a more well-synchronized combination of combat spells and martial prowess (that is, to cast spells and use weapons in the same turn) go magus. Overall its a personal preference, though assuming magus doesn't float your boat I would go for arcanist for the unique casting mechanics.
Blade Adept is hardly a bad start for an EK. All you trade is 3 exploits (1, 3, and 5 to progress with CL) in exchange for an Arcane Bond which counts as a free magic weapon, along with additional exploit choices like Spellstrike and Magus Arcana which you can take through Extra Arcanist Exploit. Comparing it to normal arcanists is pointless because you aren't taking EK for the spellcasting - you're a gish.
If you are using Blade Adept Arcanist, here is an option to do this and NOT go into Eldritch Knight . (Also see the posts below the linked one for more thoughts.) It progresses the Bloodrager Bloodline (instead of a Sorcerer Bloodline) with Bloodline Development and eventually gets the Knowledge is Power Magus Arcana (normally unusable for non-Magi even when they use VMC Magus to pick up Magus Arcana, but Blade Adept Arcanist gives effective Magus levels to make it work, even though Blade Adept Arcanist can't take this Magus Arcana by itself).
One caveat: The above link is to a Human build, not an Elven build -- you really need that extra feat when going VMC on a class with no bonus feats.
The downside to Blade Adept is that an Arcanist/EK character is even farther behind in spellcasting than a Wizard/EK; the upside is that they get spell strike (but not spell combat). Wizards also have the benefit of assorted school powers and features, while Blade Adept is focused on mimicking a few Magus features.
There's actually a huge number of different ways to create an EK, since an EK has the features of both of its two base classes. Something to note about EK characters is that they will always, always be behind in spellcasting by a whole spell level; this is non-negotiable. On the other hand, a combat-oriented EK can be very competitive with some very interesting abilities.
A few notable things that can work well for an Elven EK:
Knowledge is Power Arcane Discovery: add INT to all combat maneuvers.
Elven Curved Blade: wielded in two hands with Power Attack, it can be as (or possibly more?) effective as a DEX-to-damage weapon. Good with Transmuter to buff both STR and DEX, and/or with a Barbarian Archetype like Savage Technologist or Urban Barbarian to further bump STR/DEX without normal Rage drawbacks.
Admixture Wizard, Rime Spell, Opening Volley, specialize in Fiery Shuriken: spray no-save entangle cold bolts around with swift actions that also grant +4 to attacks.
Teleportation Wizard 6: gain 15ft teleport as a swift action.
Spell Sage Wizard + Preferred Spell: gain access to spontaneously cast Divine Favor, take the Fate's Favored Trait. Great for archery.
Strength Patron Witch: gain Divine Favor. Use Witch hexes like Flight for utility, use Ill Omen and Quickened Ill Omen to debuff enemies. Also great for archery.
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1: gain Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse free, plus INT-fueled Panache.
Urban Barbarian/Bloodrager 1 or Savage Technologist 1: gain a Rage that increases DEX and doesn't drop AC, and works with a Furious weapon; take one Extra Rage for a total of 10ish rounds/day of pure combat buff for when you're committing to melee.
You can even go Sohei 1/ Hex Channeler Strength Patron Witch 5 to pick up Crusader's Flurry: Scimitar by worshipping Sarenrae. Then your Witch/EK can use armored Flurry with a Dervish Dance scimitar while buffed with Divine Favor + Fate's Favored.
Well the most direct advice you can get is to not multiclass to create a Warrior-Caster, but to pick a solo class designed as that like the Magus. The Eldritch knight and pretty much all other prestige classes are outdated. Just picking them you lose out on your original class features.
You lose out massively on multiclassing a Caster class as later on you get amazing spells, while your physical abilities will never reach the point of a genuine physical class either.
The Arcanists has a fair few awesome abilties, and multiclassing limits them quite a bit. The Elf favored class bonus for the Arcanist can almost double your maximum Arcane points.
To note there is another thread about the Wizard, Arcanist, and Sorcerer comparison.
Actually you'd be surprised. EK still has full 9th level casting and is ideally only a level behind. While difficult to pull off, it can remain quite powerful and relevant. Your spells are just as powerful with the magical knack trait, and you can pretty much wreck anyone.
The Eldritch knight loses all the Arcanist benefits from those levels. You would also need to start multiclass into a martial class.
A Ranger3/Arcanist 7/Elditch knight 10
So that is -13 Arcane points(-26 if youre elf), -6 Arcane Exploits, -4 caster level, -3 will save, -1 full-round attack(I think).
In exchange you get +6 base attack, 4 bonus combat feats, +5 fortitude, +3 reflex, spell critical.
You also do not get access to armor of any kind through proficiencies or lower arcane failure, And I cant find anything saying Prestige classes add additional attacks to a full-round attack. You would also need a combination of combat and magic feats, as well as mixed equipment.
Those are some massive losses and complications. Keeping about level 16 arcanaist spell slot level might seem nice, but that really makes the sword skill irrelevant.
The better EK builds just have one martial class, and all BAB should stack for iterative attacks. I'll check up on that and dig a bit. Wizard normally works better for EK as there are less class features to miss out on, but choosing good exploits should make it worthwhile. In the end your effective caster level is 18 (magical knack makes it 20 for spell power), and for +15 BAB that ain't so bad. I feel a good EK is really just played as a normal spellcaster that will occasionally hit back.
I quite like Zolkuth's guide to the Eldritch Knight, and would definitely recommend it.
It makes absolutely no difference where BAB comes from. More BAB = more attacks.
An Eldritch Knight shouldn't generally have more than 2 lost levels of spellcasting, and they will have no lost CL power with Magical Knack. A Wizard or Witch EK is just a half spell level behind a full Sorcerer or Arcanist. An EK will never have quite the spell level of a full caster, but they're quite close.
An Eldritch Knight will be 3 points short of full BAB for pretty much their entire career, which is easy to overcome with their huge potential for combat buffing. By the time they're down more than 3 BAB, they're able to use things like Greater Heroism and Monstrous Physique: Calikang. With high level spell support and well-considered base classes, an EK can be a straight-up combat machine once it gets going.
There are light armor options that cause no spellcasting problems, and Arcane Armor Training opens up medium armors as well. Spellcasting has huge potential benefits for defense. DEX-based characters don't use much armor anyhow.
A badly designed EK (or a weak, generalized theorycraft EK) is going to make an overall lousy character. A well built EK can be a monster by higher levels. It just depends on how smartly it's built.
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I'm designing an elf character who starts with a level of Trapper Ranger and then takes an arcane spellcasting class to qualify for Eldritch Knight, but I'm not sure whether to take Arcanist or Wizard. Wizard will work well for this, I know, but Wizard tends to dominate in your basic gish builds anyway. Does Arcanist bring anything interesting to the table that might make me pick it instead? Or would it be too weak compared to the wizard that I end up being a load on a hypothetical party?
You haven't mentioned your level yet, but your post seems to suggest you're starting at level one...
...in which case, you can have everything you're looking for (and more) in one neat little package by playing a MAGUS. There's even the Spell Trapper archetype which gets ranger traps. More info here!
Basically at any level below fifteen, the Magus is going to be a more effective gish than the eldritch knight. At levels fifteen and up, of course, EK gets 7th level spells and Magus does not.
The downside to Blade Adept is that an Arcanist/EK character is even farther behind in spellcasting than a Wizard/EK; the upside is that they get spell strike (but not spell combat). Wizards also have the benefit of assorted school powers and features, while Blade Adept is focused on mimicking a few Magus features.
In all cases the Wizard is going to have the fastest spell progression possible simply by being a prepared full caster. And some Arcane Discoveries are incredibly powerful - if you're going for a Combat Maneuver EK you'll definitely want Wizard. Between Wizard and Sorcerer for EK, Wizard is almost always a better choice.
Arcanists, however, have much more going for them. With the archetype you've got Arcane Bond for added spellcasting versatility in addition to a free magic weapon with strong scaling (for an exploit), Alertness, the ability to further boost your weapon damage, bypass physical resistances, prevent penalties from breaking, retrieve it from anywhere, and even use it to refill your Arcane Reservoir. In addition, through feats you can access Spellstrike, Magus Arcana, Metamixing for additional metamagic versatility, Quick Study to literally be a Schrodinger's Caster, or use Arcane Weapon to gain a limited form of the Arcane Pool (among other things). The Blade Adept Arcanist EK is straight-up better at melee than a Wizard EK.
Arcanists also have more spells per day than a Wizard at all levels besides 20 and have more versatility with these builds than your typical Wizard. At each level the Wizard can prepare more spells, but in reality he often prepares important buff spells multiple times, negating the benefit entirely. An Arcanist can prepare Resist Energy, Haste, Mirror Image, and Greater Invisibility once and cast each one as needed rather than attempting to guess how often you'll use each one. Plus, when Dispel Magic comes online, an Arcanist can simply recast the buffs they've lost while a Wizard needs to have prepared exactly the right spells to replace their lost buffs. Combined with Quick Study, Potent Magic, and Metamixing the Arcanist is simply a more versatile spellcaster in any given situation, even though he's a level behind.
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I was actually aware of the magus, but there's one thing that sets the two apart: an Eldritch Knight may use two-handed weapons in battle, while Magi need to use a one-gander to make efficient use of spell-combat.
There's a few workarounds to that.
Mainly, you can use a weapon like the katana, the use it one-handed in spell combat and two-handed when making standard action or opportunity attacks.
The mindblade archetype can gish with a 2H weapon, albeit at high level only.
A two-level dip into alchemist gives you an extra arm to work with.
Aside from that, it strikes me that a Magus without spell combat is still a better gish than the Blade Adept (because of its enchant weapon ability, spellstrike for free, more arcana than the arcanist gets, and even getting traps without a ranger dip). Wizard gets even less gish features than that.
Basically the only thing the EK builds bring to the table is 7th-9th level spells. Which is admittedly great, but you have to wait quite a lot of levels before they become available.
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EK actually brings 9th level spells that are just as powerful as pure wizards. You can't really compare them to Magi.
Magi do self buffing and combat. Their magic augments their fighting ability.
Fighting augments an EK's spellcasting ability, with powerful buffs and full 9th level casting. They are EXTREMELY versatile. DR can't be beat? Damage dealing spell. Spell resistance or squishy? Smack them hard. Need to teleport? Go ahead.
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EK actually brings 9th level spells that are just as powerful as pure wizards. You can't really compare them to Magi.
Yes, that's what I just said. You can easily compare them, taking into account when 7th to 9th level spells will be available (which in most campaigns will either be "very late" or "never").
At most levels, Magus is easily the better gish. At levels 15 and up, EK has higher level spells. So it would help if the OP specifies what level he'll be playing at.
The Magus is EXTREMELY versatile. DR can't be beat? Damage dealing spell, with free metamagic from your arcana. Spell resistance or squishy? Smack them hard, with a free extra attack from spell combat. Need to teleport? Go ahead, and make a full attack in the same turn.
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I was planning on taking the character through an AP, if you're curious.
Yes. Well it depends on which one, but I believe most APs start around level 1, and end around level 15 (if your character will make it through all six books in the first place). That means that 7th level spells are only going to be relevant in the last one or two sessions (for the gish, at least; a pure caster build will have them earlier), and 8th level spells aren't in the picture at all.
So since the main advantage of the EK starts at level 15 and your campaign ends at level 15, I'd say that EK is not such a good fit here. There are other gishes that can use a two-handed weapon, notably Bloodrager, Warpriest, and Occultist.
I see. Thanks for the advice, everyone!
I was actually aware of the magus, but there's one thing that sets the two apart: an Eldritch Knight may use two-handed weapons in battle, while Magi need to use a one-gander to make efficient use of spell-combat.
Well, if you were already planning on an EK, using a 2H weapon and not getting things like spell combat and enhance weapons, Armored Battlemage Magus might be a decent Idea.
Now, the archetype is usually terrible, but you still get spellstrike (at an earlier level than most EKs ever will), you spellcasting and BAB hurt less, and without needing a 1H weapon for spell combat you have a wider variety. You should pick up Arcane Strike at a low level for DR/Magic and to replace enhance weapon (with a poorer version admittedly). It has most of what you were planning to get and gets armor training for a higher dex to AC, and possibly advanced armor training for DR, a scaling AC bonus, free skills, free crafting, etc.
Arcanists, however, have much more going for them. With the archetype you've got Arcane Bond for added spellcasting versatility in addition to a free magic weapon with strong scaling (for an exploit), Alertness, the ability to further boost your weapon damage, bypass physical resistances, prevent penalties from breaking, retrieve it from anywhere, and even use it to refill your Arcane Reservoir. In addition, through feats you can access Spellstrike, Magus Arcana, Metamixing for additional metamagic versatility, Quick Study to literally be a Schrodinger's Caster, or use Arcane Weapon to gain a limited form of the Arcane Pool (among other things). The Blade Adept Arcanist EK is straight-up better at melee than a Wizard EK.
The Blade Arcanist is certainly a competitive option, but there are some major limitations to it.
A Blade Arcanist/ EK needs two feats just to cover basic Exploits (Potent Magic, Spell Strike, Eldritch Blade). This takes up their level 7 and 9 feats automatically - which means they can't even begin to branch out into other exploits until level 11, and only then at a cost of even more of their higher-level feats. An Exploiter Wizard actually picks up Exploits far more easily.
For a Blade Adept/ EK, Arcane Weapon costs a standard action to get a +1 enhancement bonus for one minute. It also costs a feat to get.
While it has some major positives, a Black Blade is a non-customized one-handed weapon that eventually falls slightly behind in CL/3 enhancement. A Black Blade can never be a Furious greatsword or a Spellstoring nodachi.
A Wizard's full range of archetype/school options has an absolute ton of useful stuff in it for melee - access to Divine Favor and other non-Wizard spells, swift-action teleportation, Admixture to drop Rime Spell onto Fiery Shuriken, etc.
Again, Blade Arcanist can be a great EK option; it's just certainly not the automatic 'best' option. If I want to create an 'ultimate melee' EK, I'd likely go with something like Bloodrager/ Teleportation Wizard with a Furious greatsword, or a Strength Patron Synergist Witch using Artful Dodge TWF to combine sword, unarmed strike and multiple natural attacks with Divine Favor, Heroism and Arcane Strike.
^That's why I had come up with the build linked above that uses Blade Adept Arcanist with a 1 level dip in Blood Conduit Bloodrager to be a gish WITHOUT any prestige class levels -- full progression (except for a 1 level delay) on all Arcanist class features, and starting at 7th level, full BAB on your signature combat maneuver, thanks to the interaction of Blade Adept Arcanist with VMC Magus.