RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In another thread,
In all seriousness, though, I would love to see a real-world cultural shift to stop badmouthing the likes of Sheila Heidmarch, Drandle Dreng, and others.
I understand your feelings, John, but those two Venture Captains, in particular, have earned their scorn. Sheila established herself as very casual towards the lives of agents under her command and all-too-ready to commit crimes against innocents. Dreng has never done much to earn anyone's respect.
I understand why: they give agents missions in Magnimar and in Absalom; if they were too nice, or too helpful to the PCs, parties might think to turn to them as resources during the adventures. To keep the PCs independent, the local Venture Captains have to be drawn as either contemptuous or undependable. But then, they get the reputations they earn.
(Besides, those are our managers. We're going to gripe about them. If you want us to think nicely of an NPC, those characters should be the faction leaders, to people we choose to follow.)
Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Yes, but with the PFS Union (Shadow Lodge) no longer in existence, there is nothing protecting you from the consequences of your badmouthing.
God that faction is one of the most confusing things I have ever seen because honestly I can't see how they ever went from evil organization with no qualms of mass murdering people to PFS Union.
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Yes, but with the PFS Union (Shadow Lodge) no longer in existence, there is nothing protecting you from the consequences of your badmouthing.God that faction is one of the most confusing things I have ever seen because honestly I can't see how they ever went from evil organization with no qualms of mass murdering people to PFS Union.
When it was taken over by a "burned-by-the-Decemvirate" hero instead of a
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God that faction is one of the most confusing things I have ever seen because honestly I can't see how they ever went from evil organization with no qualms of mass murdering people to PFS Union.
Party shows up in a season 2 adventure with the evil shadowlodge. Shadowlodge agent gives a spiel. Party goes along with him, gets attack.
"What the hell!? Our union dues are like ten seconds late but I've got some bath salts for grandmaster torch right here!"
Osprey: "the shadowlodge is real!"
Flutter: Shows union card. "Meetings are tuesday at 7, coffee and doughnuts to be served"
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Yes, but with the PFS Union (Shadow Lodge) no longer in existence, there is nothing protecting you from the consequences of your badmouthing.God that faction is one of the most confusing things I have ever seen because honestly I can't see how they ever went from evil organization with no qualms of mass murdering people to PFS Union.
Basically, PFS leadership saw that the campaign was actually taking an interesting direction, and then steamrolled the Shadow Lodge faction leader into a moustache-twirling cardboard cutout, lest they actively encourage anything more than murder hoboes in PFS.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I understand your feelings, John, but those two Venture Captains, in particular, have earned their scorn. Sheila established herself as very casual towards the lives of agents under her command and all-too-ready to commit crimes against innocents. Dreng has never done much to earn anyone's respect.
What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
How about wake us up in the middle of the night because you know...whatever is happening has to happen in the middle of the night. Or have us over for tea. Tea makes everything better.
I personally think it has less to do with fixing Dreng then perhaps introducing some VCs that "get us". Eliza is my personal favorite to fill that role - I'd like to see more of her.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Basically, PFS leadership saw that the campaign was actually taking an interesting direction, and then steamrolled the Shadow Lodge faction leader into a moustache-twirling cardboard cutout, lest they actively encourage anything more than murder hoboes in PFS.Yes, but with the PFS Union (Shadow Lodge) no longer in existence, there is nothing protecting you from the consequences of your badmouthing.God that faction is one of the most confusing things I have ever seen because honestly I can't see how they ever went from evil organization with no qualms of mass murdering people to PFS Union.
You see the problem is not with the leadership more than Im not seeing anything that actually redeemed Torch as nothing more than a man solely bent on revenge and then cravenly trying to backpeddle when his creation tried to slit his throat.
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My problem with Dreng is that he's also the VC that's most likely to turn around and stab us in the back due to his "other concerns" (you know what I mean Compton, I'm onto you). You know, like previous faction heads and Venture Captains. Notice how many have screwed us over, but none have turned out to be so reliable and trustworthy you'd want them at your wedding?
Fool me once...
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I do have to wonder how much people's opinion of Dreng is based on how he has been RPed for you.
Yes. This.
As a player, none of my characters has ever had cause to look unfavorably upon any of the Society's leadership (until they did... SPOILERS!).As a GM, I don't think I've ever portrayed the Society's leadership as antagonistic to the rank and file membership (until I did... SPOILERS!).
Each of the VCs has some traits, eccentricities and foibles written into their descriptions to help with their roleplay, but I don't recall ever reading any of them described as worthy of scorn, unlikable or contemptuous of their direct reports.
But, then again, I can't say that I've met every VC in-game as a player or that I've had the opportunity to run every VC as a GM.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
Drendle Dreng
Please don't change Dreng! Seriously, he's the VC with the most personality. I love to GM his character. He's so quirky and hilarious.
However, am much as I love him story-wise, my PCs do have reasons to resent him. He's dragged us out in the middle of the night, called us lazy Pathfinders and sent us first level characters into a dungeon where we had to face killer constructs that were simply awful, and has never given us full information.
Zahra, my super friendly character from Kat-a-pesh, has decided that he's a liability... And Zahra likes almost everyone.
But as a player rather than a player character, I adore Dreng. He's better than some of the other VCs that have been utterly forgettable. Adril Hestram... Blah. Even Amrus Valsin can be hard to bring out, personality-wise.
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VCs that have earned my loyalty
Other VCs I've loved: Paracountess Zarta Dralneen, Master of Scrolls Kreighton Shane and Calisro Benarry of the Arcadian Mariner's Lodge.
I've always felt that all three got us as Pathfinders, even if they had their own agendae and concerns. Yes, Zarta has called me a scrumptious tea cake, but she hasn't let me down. Calisro Benarry in particular has been awesome. She knows the ropes, and gets you the intel and supplies you need.
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Aram Zey. Why are we rescuing him again? Sorrina Westyr is a huge improvement. Can we please, please keep her?
Hmm
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Aram zey insults people a lot. Its no wonder the party didn't want to...
That whole Season 7 arc with Aram Zey is kind of the epitome of what is kind of iffy with Pathfinder Society Leadership.
He's dragged us out in the middle of the night, called us lazy Pathfinders and sent us first level characters into a dungeon where we had to face constructs that were awful, and never given us full information.
Wasn't that Valsin and technically speaking not their fault?
EDIT:Yeah it was Valsin and was a disastrous accident.
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It's very hard to see their level of competence seeing as how they just show up and tell us stuff, and magic works fairly reliably. It would be interesting to contrast whether people would prefer a nice but incompetent leader or a mean but competent one.. but they don't really have the screen time for that.
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Wasn't that Valsin and technically speaking not their fault?
EDIT:
Yeah it was Valsin and was a disastrous accident.
"That vas Valsin?"
"My apologies. I thought it vas Dreng. It vas so very long ago, my very first adventure vith the society! Omar and I nearly died! I hereby retract some of the terrible things that I said about Dreng." Zahra looks in her bag, and pulls out a bar of soap. "I still keep some of these for every time ve vork vith Dreng, though... Vhat he thinks is good attire is disgrace!"
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
I think he'd need to fulfill the Hidden Badass part of the "Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass" archetype. He's been portrayed as a doddering old man for awhile, and there have been hints as to his glory days here and there. Wounded Wisp has often been discussed as not quite as accidental as suggested. But he needs to pull off something to show he has something to be respected. Maybe not in combat, like Ollysta and Guaril. But something. Otherwise he'll remain the bumbling uncle, which isn't bad, but isn't exactly respectable.
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Heh. I remember one time when I was sitting by the toilet lauging at nothing. It wasn't a drinking experience, though, it was just the middle of an all-nighter. That middle-of-the-night oh-my-god-I'm-punchy moment when things are funny, and when you get started laughing you can't stop.
What I'm saying is I don't need to drink to act drunk....
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I personally appreciate Calisro Benary, and not just for her looks, but for her entire outlook on working for the Society.
I've run into Sheila Heidmarch five times in character. Thrice it's been 'Go get 'em boys and girls', once it's been 'Okay, so now we're doing something really shady' and once it's been 'DerpDerp GM not going to rp your briefing go check something out YAY PFS go beat that module!'
There's three scenarios I've run into Dreng in, and every time it's "Oh, hey, you LIKED SLEEPING, HUH? WELLL! GUESS WHAT!" And queue evocations of Basic Training all over again.
There's been about a half-dozen scenarios where my characters have encountered Kreighton Shaine, and pretty much every time the impression has been Dr. Farnsworth voice
There's also
Personally, having only played a handful of the Shadow Lodge scenarios, on the same character for the most part, it's been very interesting to see his perspective change from 'These guys are scum' to 'Oh, hey, you're not REALLY *ALL* that bad, you just have the same sort of 'rot' issues that the Decemvirate has. Maybe you could come on board and help out with that?'
This being said, I suspect part of the continuing reputation is a systemic reaction to how GMs recall encountering the various Venture Captains when *they* played a given scenario, and trying to both maintain faith with that version and what is written in the scenario.
How can this change?
Possibly by 'softening' their image (though this has the drawback of only working in more recent work, since the older scenarios will still have the other iterations in them).
Possibly by incorporating that into the 'writing style guidelines' for scenarios and modules, ie "Don't make the briefing officers jerks, after all, PFS play is based on 'not being a jerk' so don't provide leadership that exemplifies the very thing we're trying to avoid."
Alternatively, we can have a few scenarios where we are given the chance to boss *them* around, and see how scarily competent they really are, and that the various quirks they have are just that, either quirks or long-seated flaws that need to be fixed?
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Wounded Wisp has often been discussed as not quite as accidental as suggested. But he needs to pull off something to show he has something to be respected. Maybe not in combat, like Ollysta and Guaril. But something. Otherwise he'll remain the bumbling uncle, which isn't bad, but isn't exactly respectable.
I've always read Wounded Wisp as Drandle Dreng knowing things and manipulating new Pathfinders to get some glory for themselves, allowing some things he had leads on to be discovered without it directly coming back to him.
I sometimes raz on Drandle Dreng (in and out of character), but there's no real hate for him. It's just making fun of him in exactly the way he wants to be made fun of, because of the act he puts on.
I also haven't played the right scenarios to get the hate for Sheila Heidmarch. She's severe and no-nonsense, but I don't fully get why people actually hate her.
I did find all of the quest-givers in First Steps I to be annoying and disrespectful, except for Ollysta Zadrian. Indeed, when I played it, my cleric who was going to be in the Osirion faction switched to Silver Crusade, because she was the only quest-giver in that scenario (with the possible exception of Ambrus Valsin) who seemed to respect the Pathfinders as people, rather than as toys to play with and make fun of.
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I will say that one change that was made somewhere along the line which is very positive is that the VCs no longer open the briefing by insulting the PCs. In the first couple of seasons, the briefing would start with things like "I asked for the best, but instead I got you. Oh well." More than once I've had groups of players taken aback by this, saying, wait, why are we working for this jerk?
I'm very happy to see that in more recent seasons, this trend went away. It was a very unfortunate thing about early season PFS scenarios. Indeed, I should probably remember to do small rewrites of those briefings when I run those scenarios.
Some of the Drandle Dreng hate may have come from the fact that he was one of the main quest-givers back during the seasons when it seemed to be campaign policy to denigrate the PCs.
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Dreng's been described as "mincing," but I don't recall ever seeing him played that way (and as a GM, I've been reluctant to play him that way simply because I've never seen him played that way and I didn't want to break with "canon").
I'm running a scenario tomorrow with Dreng as the briefing VC. It's one in which he doesn't rouse the players from sleep, but instead has them to breakfast. Coupled with that, I wonder how playing him as mincing might affect the players' perception of him.
But speaking of other VCs, can we get more Istivil Bosk, Venture-Captain of Dryblade House in Daggermark? Whenever I run a sanctioned module set in the appropriate area (Thornkeep, Emerald Spire, etc.), I always use him as the briefing VC to set the hook for the Pathfinder Society's involvement.
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"I asked for the best, but instead I got you. Oh well." More than once I've had groups of players taken aback by this, saying, wait, why are we working for this jerk?
I'm very happy to see that in more recent seasons, this trend went away. It was a very unfortunate thing about early season PFS scenarios. Indeed, I should probably remember to do small rewrites of those briefings when I run those scenarios.
Some of the Drandle Dreng hate may have come from the fact that he was one of the main quest-givers back during the seasons when it seemed to be campaign policy to denigrate the PCs.
What? I don't understand this. Suspend your disbelief, sure, self-insert all you want but distance yourself from the unreal as well. This behaviour belongs in middle school, not at the gaming table.
Personally, meanish but good-natured jabs from bosses is what I've come to expect IRL. It's pretty ubiquitous and you're supposed to backtalk to those darn bastards anyways.
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Jorsal of Lauterbury and Calisro Benarry are two VCs that have left a very good impression during my encounters with them, in terms of both competence and courage.
Sheila Heidmarch hasn't done anything to earn the ire of any of my PCs; maybe it's the missions she's sent them on.
Any 'scorn' for Drandle Dreng is purely tongue-in-cheek and OOC. Personally, all of my Grand Lodge PCs are nothing but respectful and polite to the Venture-Captains (and sometimes have a quiet word with Pathfinders that aren't!)
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I'm absolutely in love with Eliza Petulengro. She's just tough enough, but still understands the importance of respecting her Pathfinders.
Another high on my list is Norden Balentiir. He has shown nothing but respect for Pathfinders, and in fact has taken action deliberately to protect them, while bringing in an experienced and capable group of Pathfinders to try to deal with the issue.
