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Jorsal of Lauterbury and Holgarin Smine for the win!
Total agreement on Holgarin Smine. In his few appearances so far, I recall him providing the PCs with useful information and equipment they might need to complete the mission. And snacks. Can't forget the snacks.
If Dreng conducted a briefing at a reasonable hour in a normal place, most of my characters would attack immediately, as obviously he's a doppelganger or some nefarious replacement. Dreng not being eccentric is a warning sign that something is wrong. :-)
I think the Sheila issues may have appeared due to her initially being portrayed as running a new lodge. Some of the early season 4 adventures had her sending the PCs out with little information since she didn't have sufficient intel resources. And then the golems would attack. Seriously, her more recent appearances have portrayed her as much more prepared.
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What? I don't understand this. Suspend your disbelief, sure, self-insert all you want but distance yourself from the unreal as well. This behaviour belongs in middle school, not at the gaming table."I asked for the best, but instead I got you. Oh well." More than once I've had groups of players taken aback by this, saying, wait, why are we working for this jerk?
I'm very happy to see that in more recent seasons, this trend went away. It was a very unfortunate thing about early season PFS scenarios. Indeed, I should probably remember to do small rewrites of those briefings when I run those scenarios.
Some of the Drandle Dreng hate may have come from the fact that he was one of the main quest-givers back during the seasons when it seemed to be campaign policy to denigrate the PCs.
??? What are you trying to say? Who are you talking about wrt middle-school behavior?
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I have to concur that I don't see a lot of hate, per se, for Drandle Dreng. I typically play him as a addled beatnik type who drops a line or two here to show he knows more than he lets on.
Shelia (and to a lesser extent Canayven) Heidmarch spent a lot of time in Season 4 sending Pathfinders on missions with little to no information, and a conclusion debriefing that seemed like it was a lot of "gosh, that's awful, how you gonna deal with that...but did you complete the mission?" I've no love for her, but I'm sure that's been colored by Season 4.
The big Aram Zey reveal in Serpent's Rise was delightful for such an unlikable NPC, and I've yet to GM that one for any group with players who've experienced him who haven't relished the opportunities presented in that scenario.
On the flip side: I am a big fan of Calisro Benarry, and remember Jorsal of Lauterbury fondly from Siege of the Diamond City and, later, Traitor's Lodge. Eliza Petulengro and Norden Balentiir are pretty good too.
As a GM, I'd welcome more and better guidance on how to best portray the Venture-Captains and their personalities.
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
As a player and GM, I just sort of assume Dreng is the Society's version of a 007 'M'. He's probably changed the course of history a half dozen times and absolutely no one actually knows a darn thing about who he *actually* is.
In a similar vein, I truly enjoy both the gonzo and inexplicably competent incarnations of Kreighton Shaine, and I chalk the changes in character up to 'When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.'
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?How about wake us up in the middle of the night because you know...whatever is happening has to happen in the middle of the night. Or have us over for tea. Tea makes everything better.
I remember one adventure where Dreng invited us over to do paperwork. Thankfully the Blackrose Museum had an emergency so he graciously let us go hack and slash while he did the tedious paperwork. He has my eternal gratitude.
Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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I will say that one change that was made somewhere along the line which is very positive is that the VCs no longer open the briefing by insulting the PCs. In the first couple of seasons, the briefing would start with things like "I asked for the best, but instead I got you. Oh well." More than once I've had groups of players taken aback by this, saying, wait, why are we working for this jerk?
Reading the intros of scenarios where this happens, it appears the VC delivering this treatment is Dennel Hamshamks at least half the time.
Perhaps it's for the best we haven't see that VC lately.
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Calisro Benarry and Holgrin Smine are easily my favorites. Osprey is also high on my list. And Torch. Torch is awesome. He may be "the bad guy" now, but he's still an awesome character and my Shadow Lodger would still take orders from him.
I also never disliked Dreng, and have always thought he was just putting on a show so people would underestimate him. I would love to see the other shoe finally drop, and have Dreng end up being a total bad ass.
Sheila on the other hand I'm not a fan of. Aram Zey got what he deserved(in Sky Key solution our entire group bad mouthed Zey when Kreighton Shane tried to have a moment of silence in his honor), and Valsin just seems like a dick.
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?
An adventure during which the PC's discover, deep in the archives of the Pathfinder society, the heroic acts that he accomplished to defend Absolom and the Society, which lead to his current state of mental disorientation and crippling insomnia, and give them the chance to ameliorate some the damage done to him by laying some of his personal demons finally to rest.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Unpopular opinion: I like Aram Zey. More than Sorrina Westyr.
This thread does inspire me, however: would anyone be interested in working on a Pathfinder Society -specific character page on TVTropes with me? I had the idea a few years ago, but starting work on it alone felt too daunting.
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?I think he'd need to fulfill the Hidden Badass part of the "Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass" archetype. He's been portrayed as a doddering old man for awhile, and there have been hints as to his glory days here and there.
It's been a while since
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What are a few things that Dreng would need to do or contribute to in order to earn someone's respect—minus his appearing slightly more presentable?An adventure during which the PC's discover, deep in the archives of the Pathfinder society, the heroic acts that he accomplished to defend Absolom and the Society, which lead to his current state of mental disorientation and crippling insomnia, and give them the chance to ameliorate some the damage done to him by laying some of his personal demons finally to rest.
If the inevitable Horror Adventures tie in scenario(s) have not been written yet, that sounds like a good plot point.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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VC Dreng, got some very interesting background details in Black Waters and School of Spirits (I have run those scenarios back to back a couple of times). Wounded Wisp might have benefitted a bit from at least a hint of some intentional actions, but that is frankly beside the point.
I have now played an run this several times, and while the evidence might be a bit understated, Drendle Dreng did kill quite a number of enemy combatants.
Frankly, Drendle Dreng can be quite a quite an impressive character, and I am waiting for the point where players find a bloody drenched Dreng surrounded by the bodies of several reinforcements that were about to catch the PCs (who already had a tough fight on their hands) in a pincer movement.
I really fail to understand the deal with Sheila Heidmarch, yes there is that one questionable line in a scenario centered on a night time walk, but in the very same scenario at least one faction mission shows that she actually cares for the well being of Pathfinder agents.
Maybe she needs a similar standout moment like the Silver Crusade leader received in frankly one of the most memorable scenarios
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One problem with "fixing" NPCs, John, is that the existing scenarios are still out there, still being played. So, you can write new scenarios that address some of these character issues, but short of retiring old mission briefings, there's not much you can do to completely adjust players' impressions of those Venture Captains.
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As far as Aram Zey goes, I am surprised anyone agrees to go on a mission to rescue him given he is consistently offensive towards PC's.
During a certain mission where one needs to reacquire Aram Zey, we had to roleplay out how the group successfully saved him from my song-striker bard who was completely intent on shouting him into a million pieces.
That's the problem John - the damage is done. My character was driven to virtual murder (justified because you know - he's already dead and I already wrote my dirge for him, the one happy song the bard has even written) by his shenanigans and attitude. It's not about rescuing the opinions of certain VCs, it's about taking the VCs we have that are more blank slate, and let us know that they are watching out for us.
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6-02 The Silver Mount Collection is another one where Dreng is talking to you during daylight hours.Y'know, he DID get us up at a reasonable hour for one of them. Sewer Dragons, I think?
Also yes to Eliza.
I would disagree here. While we don't explicitly have a time for the initial "briefing," we do have a description of the first outdoor location, which is described as being "unlit" with illumination from elsewhere making it "dim light." It is most definitely night.
Edit: Sewer Dragons is interesting in that I played it with a True Dragons pregen and thanked Dreng during the briefing for agreeing to assist in my enslavement of the tribe. In essence, I made Dreng even more morally questionable.
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Unpopular opinion: I like Aram Zey. More than Sorrina Westyr.
This thread does inspire me, however: would anyone be interested in working on a Pathfinder Society -specific character page on TVTropes with me? I had the idea a few years ago, but starting work on it alone felt too daunting.
If you can poke me a bit for how to format things, yes.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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One problem with "fixing" NPCs, John, is that the existing scenarios are still out there, still being played. So, you can write new scenarios that address some of these character issues, but short of retiring old mission briefings, there's not much you can do to completely adjust players' impressions of those Venture Captains.
I would take this a step further, you shouldn't "fix" the NPCs suddenly. You can make adjustments over time, but even those should be limited.
I have tried to avoid the "save Aram Zey" missions from Season 7. I don't want to spike a mission, but I also don't want Aram Zey back. Really, I don't want him back. The other person I would like out is Coulson Maldris.
Wounded Wisp and School of Spirits hint at what is happening with Dreng. Seeing a little more of that would considerably help people's opinions.
Keep in mind that the mission briefing at the beginning sets the tone. Anything that happens at the conclusion tends to be rushed or glossed over. At that point, players tend to be focused on getting the chronicles filled out and figuring out what is next.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there is often information in a scenario that doesn't tend to come out when all you do is play it. There is also going to be a lot of table variation in how different VCs are played depending on what the GM knows about them. I've met Smine in one scenario, wasn't impressed. Based on some comments here, I may have to check if that was because of the GM, the scenario, or both.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Otherwise he'll remain the bumbling uncle, which isn't bad, but isn't exactly respectable.I seem to recall one where the players rescue him from a pit he couldn't get out of on his own?
He was injured at that point, and avoiding escaping and causing a diplomatic issue might also have been a factor.
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Unpopular opinion: I like Aram Zey. More than Sorrina Westyr.
Same.
Otherwise he'll remain the bumbling uncle, which isn't bad, but isn't exactly respectable.I seem to recall one where the players rescue him from a pit he couldn't get out of on his own?
Unaware of that particular one. The only pit I've seen him in was after being injured in battle and captured by a large, friendly creature. And he eventually escapes that predicament if the PCs don't help him out.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Unpopular opinion: I like Aram Zey. More than Sorrina Westyr.Same.
I like Aram Zey but only because he's such an ass that it even oozes into chronicle sheets. Sorrina Westyr is a nice change of pace and at least thanks you for saving her life. That and its nice to not have the role filled out with stereotypical class like Aram Zey.
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I have had no issues with Sheila Heidmarch and I haven't heard any disrespect toward her from any of the players in my area. Personally, I love Drendle Dreng, although I wouldn't mind seeing something along the lines of the "Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass" suggestions. As far as I'm concerned, neither needs to change significantly.
I have had real issues in character with Aram Zey, both due to his scorn for PCs and because in the one scenario where one of my characters has seen him present when the excrement hits the rotating blades, he hid. I understand that, out of character, this was because the PCs need to have the spotlight rather than letting the NPC be the hero, but in character, it made him look like an overbearing bully who finally was revealed to be a coward. If I would suggest one thing going forward, it would be to make sure in the future that such situations are written so as to make the VC do something heroic off screen because he thinks the PCs are up to handling the challenge in front of them without assistance.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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So, something about Dreng and getting up in the middle of the night. There's actually a good reason for him to brief you before dawn. Many casters (especially all those Kyra's out there) pick their daily spells at dawn. So if he briefs you after that... too bad, you already got your list for the day. Sure, there's sleep problems for some people, but he's trying to give you options.
Shiela I didn't have any problem with for a long time. My first interaction with her was as the GM on Night March, where she's trying to help a retired pathfinder. Other scenarios, meh. Then years later I finally got to play Race for the Runecarved Key. This is where the hate comes from. Here she is incredibly sketchy and encourages some very illegal and immoral behavior. As far as I know it's the only time she's a problem, but as a season special, it's a very big problem.
Somehow, despite only being in one scenario, Retief VanSchuyver became my favorite VC for a long time. Now Benary is stealing his schtick, so I dislike her when I would otherwise like her.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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My character was driven to virtual murder (justified because you know - he's already dead and I already wrote my dirge for him, the one happy song the bard has even written) by his shenanigans and attitude.
Your character wanted to condemn Aram Zey to death because he offended your character, and somehow in your mind the problem actor in that scenario is Aram Zey?
I'm not a fan of Calisro Bennary. I've never been a fan of the 'floating Pathfinder lodge' in general.
I like Aram Zey and Ambrus Valsin, and I've never had a problem with Sheila Heidmarch.
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This entire exchange is a perfect example of the lax hiring requirements of the Pathfinder Society. When are we going to get somebody smarter than your typical dunder-headed moron?
While Aram Zey didn't make an appearance until well after my induction into Pathfinder Society, the man has not only become a mentor I've surpassed by leaps and bounds, but a role-model to the right way to treat Pathfinder Society renewable resources. Just because you're all too stupid to see it, doesn't make it not so.
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My first interaction with her was as the GM on Night March, where she's trying to help a retired pathfinder.That was my first interaction with her, as well, and she did not make a good impression.
** spoiler omitted **
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Honestly, I don't respect most of the VCs because they don't do anything respectable; honestly, most of the time they don't do anything at all. Frankly, a vast majority of them I couldn't care less about one way or the other because they are one note and don't add any anything meaningful other then a bit of exposition at the beginning and, maybe, at the end; they could easily be replaced by "Biff the Understudy" for all that they add to the game most of the time.
Off the top of my head, I can think of three that I actually care about in any appreciably way: Zarta (because she's a cool and interesting character), Aram Zay (because I love to hate him), and Grandmaster Torch (because I thought he had some real points until events occurred...). All of them I interacted with OUTSIDE of the normal briefing, so I got an actual look at their character and interacted with them as individuals instead of mouthpieces. The worst example of this is the Ten, who as near as I can tell are so completely fifth-wheel irrelevant that I don't think I've seen them do a thing once in the two years I've played PFS.
So why should I respect these guys? Almost all of the characterization they receive comes from community memes. Now, I'm sure that these characters are, in fact, fully fleshed out; however, as a player, I've never seen it in game because it's likely hidden in some backstory paragraph that is totally irrelevant because it never comes up.
So, how do we fix this? One option would be to give them a more active role in scenarios but I think that might be difficult to do without overshadowing the PCs or eating up a lot of time. I think a better option would be some web fiction through the eyes of some of the characters so we can get some sort of insight into them. I would LOVE to read a Zarta short story or two.