So, could someone with MTT check this weapon for me? d20 source is listing it as 1d8 x3 and 1d6 x2 for a double weapon weapon. Okay, fair enough. That's no double bladed sword...
Except it is simple???
Um.
Yea.
For the very rare, and powerful, double ability the balance ussually tends to be that they are hard to get hold of. Fair enough since any TWF build that isn't using weapon finesse wants them. (Oh, you mean all those builds that no one plays? Shush me!)
I dunno, I am kinda floored by this weapon. Seems too good to be true.
yep..its true...and has brace and does B or P damage....
...is it okay to hate a weapon?
Like, normally I would be all munchkin and go, "Aha! I can build a character around this."
But... This makes Double-Bladed Swords seem terrible by comparison. And well. Any build I would've done before would be my Double-Bladed Swords build... And... I love Double-Bladed Swords...
This feels FILTHY.
Double bladed swords have one side with better damage and both sides have crit range improvements compared to this. How is the weight.
So, it's effectively a spear that can't be thrown with a light mace stuck on the non-pointy end...
Meh, I'll stick with a Toothy half-orc Str-based TWF ranger using an orc double axe. Although I guess it does give (most) TWF clerics or non-battle oracles a slightly better option than a quarterstaff or spending a feat.
That's a pretty significant advantage over quarterstaff or a feat.
...and it weights 8 lbs so yea it trashes on double-bladed sword more. :\
And yes, you have improved critical, but you loose x3 and add 2 lbs. at the cost of a feat. So, basically you are paying a feat for 1/2 of weapon specialization on one end and improved critical on one end while the other end is a sidegrade.
But yea, short of getting proficiency another way it kinda trashes on 90% of the reason for EWP to even exist.
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Actually... the weighted buttcap of a typical hoplite's spear was often used as a light mace once the head was broken. It was also spiked on that end as well. The weighted section was often flanged. Nothing odd at all, really. A double bladed sword is actually a TERRIBLE idea for a weapon that probably only came about because someone thought Darth Maul was cool. A spear with two heads would accomplish all the same stuff but actually not suck.
What's more egregious is that a "spear" in this game is defined as about 5' long. That's a very short spear. It's also odd that you can't use spears (or long spears) one handed with a shield (unless you take a certain archetype for fighters).
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It's a weapon that should have existed in core. Several historical pole weapons had weighed or spiked butt caps that allowed the off end to be used as a weapon.
Weighted Spear
Poleaxe
Balance wise, the double sword and other double weapons should not be exotic. They aren't worth the proficency slot, and the same effect can be gained by using a one handed weapon and a cestus/spiked gauntlet.
I think someone said the armor book fixed that with a feat.
But how dare you insult my Darth Mauling plans!
It was once said that if someone came at you with a double bladed lightsaber and they still had all their limbs, you should run. They either just got it and are very stupid, or are incredibly well trained.
Forget double bladed swords, I'm holding out for this. Actually, you know what? I want a septuple laser sword in Starfinder now.
...
What's more egregious is that a "spear" in this game is defined as about 5' long. That's a very short spear. It's also odd that you can't use spears (or long spears) one handed with a shield (unless you take a certain archetype for fighters).
Or use a doru with martial or exotic proficiency.
Overall... it is a 'functional' quarterstaff.
I say this since the quarterstaff was missing one of the important parts of this sytem (metal- ie- silver and cold iron). Now, you can get different metals for each end if you feel like it.
So it is fine. It has the stats of two other simple weapons taped together.
So it is fine. It has the stats of two other simple weapons taped together.
Nope.
If you tape two other simple weapons together that's still a -2 on TWF. There is also no 1d8 x3 one handed weapon. This instead has the stats of a longspear.
Basically, this is a warhammer (martial) tied to a light mace (simple). With the -2 penalty removed. And with the ability to take Weapon Focus and such feats on both.
I'll give you that it is nothing game breaking. Partly because there are so few double weapon builds and a rogue is going to want something finessable. But it should at the very least say, "If you use this as a double weapon it requires martial weapon proficiency."
Addendum:
Basically, this is a warhammer (martial) tied to a light mace (simple). With brace added. And with the ability to take Weapon Focus and such feats on both.
If you tape two other simple weapons together that's still a -2 on TWF. There is also no 1d8 x3 one handed weapon. This instead has the stats of a longspear.
???
Spear 2 gp (S) 1d6 (M) 1d8 x3 20 ft. 6 lbs. P brace
It has the same medium attack on the pointy end.
Really, it more trades away the throwing range in order to get double. Which is an actual trade now that ricohet toss is a thing, I suppose. I am going to assume that was the balancing intent, since even the description of the weapon itself basically says 'double weapon now, but in return you lose throwing).
Really, if you are going to argue something is overpowered for its category, it would be the long spear (ie- spear, but also has reach). But no one does, because it is the beautiful oasis in the desert for almost every class. Since it can be universally used, and throwing that in as loot benefits anyone with str that isn't married to a particular weapon (like with weapon focus).
If you tape two other simple weapons together that's still a -2 on TWF. There is also no 1d8 x3 one handed weapon. This instead has the stats of a longspear.???
Spear 2 gp (S) 1d6 (M) 1d8 x3 20 ft. 6 lbs. P braceIt has the same medium attack on the pointy end.
But not for a ONE HANDED weapon. Because it has the double propriety the comparison is one-handed + light.
Imagine if one end of a double-bladed sword was a greatsword and it was martial.
I'm not saying this is the most broken thing ever. If the crit on the pointy end was x2 when double I probably would be sad for Quarterstaffs and move on. But it is obviously more than every other weapon those feature are balanced around.
This is B or P though.
Well, disagree they are the same there. I just, don't think spear dancing style should be built into a weapon at no cost.
That's the thing though. I was doing the math on double weapons to N. Jolly the other day when he commented that EWP should be a trait. They are actually pretty freaking fantastic aside from the drawback that they can't be finessed.
They are easily one of the more powerful weapon qualities in the game. It's just that for the vast majority of TWF builds that finesse quality is so much better. If there was any class that had a heavy damage or sneak attack like ability, no penalties keeping them from using TWF, and favored heavy armor/str you would see double weapons as default for them. It's just that there is this weird design gap in the game around double weapons. They are not all bad, as I am sure anyone like me who has played 3e divergent games other than pathfinder would agree. Just oddly absent.
At most, they should at least have the fighter be proficient with everything, yeah that promotes dips but fighter is a fairly dipable class anyway-for proficincies in fact.
I actually would rather have Fighters get proficiency via AWT myself.
Regardless, I don't disagree thay exotic weapons are a problem as stands. It's just that going EWP for double weapons was one of the few nitches where it WASN'T terrible. And now we have a bloody simple weapon that's stupid. How does that do anything but make it worse???
AWT?At most, they should at least have the fighter be proficient with everything, yeah that promotes dips but fighter is a fairly dipable class anyway-for proficincies in fact.I actually would rather have Fighters get proficiency via AWT myself.
Regardless, I don't disagree thay exotic weapons are a problem as stands. It's nust that going EWP for double weapons was one of the few nitches where it WASN'T terrible. And now we have a bloody simple weapon that's stupid. How does that do anything but make it worse???
Sorry, Weapon Training. Added the A out of force of habit from advanced version.
And if you think weapon specialization sans Fighter levels is a terrible feat, that's like, your opinion man.
Don't think I mention weapon specializations? Assuming that was directed towards me anyway.
ALso not aware you could get it without any fighter levels.
Ah, no. It was not. I was directing it at the other comment.
The damage buff between daggers and double-bladed sword is that of 2 on average. (2.5 average to 4.5 average) Thus, EWP double-bladed sword on a str character is weapon specialization. The con is you loose P or S for just S, but damage is more important on multihit characters so another 2 is more important.
The real con is no weapon finesse. It is at THIS point the build tumbles and crashes. In theory, str and dex are both important. In practice players tend to pick one. You can do it through a pure str build either by getting TWF as a bonus feat or going Artful Dodge on an Int char (such as an int based caster).
The flaw is that there is nothing that gives you a decent sized damage boost and allows for this playstyle. Well, Cavalier kinda does. Order of the Flame doing this should actually outdamage a typical Daring Champion thanks to getting Power Attack and giving your single attacks the advantage of being able to do a two-handed swing.
This build isn't the best example though since they do have martial and EWP becomes a lot worse when you get martial. That's when it really should be trait level. A unique proficiency trait that required martial weapons would be totally fair.
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Except the dagger build has River Rat, so the damage between the dagger build and the two-bladed sword build is 1 point of damage. The loss of thrown weapon utility should not be understated either.
The two-bladed sword is just awful, and should be a martial weapon. The only double weapons that are possibly worth an EWP is the double chained kama, kurasigama, and meteor hammer, but that;s because they can switch between reach and double.
Sigh.
Yes, there is more content for Daggers. There is also Knife Master Rogue. OF COURSE, if there are things that call out that one specific weapon it gets better. I'm talking about the chassis of the game. Not the game as it is, but the game as it is designed.
A content gap doesn't mean an option is bad, it means an option is UNSUPPORTED.
Totally thread necro, but didn't feel like making a separate thread for it. I have a question about the butt end of the spear. The text say this:
This pole has a spear head at one end and a mace head at the other. It can be wielded like a standard spear (though it isn’t balanced for throwing), or it can be used as a double weapon, alternately thrusting and bashing.
Would it be reasonable to assume I could also use the butt end, instead of the pointy end? Or would that only be possible while using TWF with it? From the text, it only seems like it's an option when TWFing, but it seems reasonable to also allow it to strike with the other end. I mean, with a regular double weapon you can also decide which end to hit first, but with the way it's worded I'd like to be extra sure. This is for PFS, by the way, so I need exact rulings, not GM leniency.
I know its off topic but speaking of weapons that shouldn't be exotic...
The Crook.
It is a two handed wooden weapon that does 1d6 damage. Sure, it has reach and grapple but are you seriously telling me that Shepherds can't use a crook to defend their flock without exotic weapon training?
Come on, its worse than the long spear and no one is ever going to spend a feat for proficiency for it. Honestly, I'd love to see EWP be reduced to a trait or at the very least have some better EWP weapons exist. Because they are almost never worth it currently.
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Totally thread necro, but didn't feel like making a separate thread for it. I have a question about the butt end of the spear. The text say this:
This pole has a spear head at one end and a mace head at the other. It can be wielded like a standard spear (though it isn’t balanced for throwing), or it can be used as a double weapon, alternately thrusting and bashing.Would it be reasonable to assume I could also use the butt end, instead of the pointy end? Or would that only be possible while using TWF with it? From the text, it only seems like it's an option when TWFing, but it seems reasonable to also allow it to strike with the other end. I mean, with a regular double weapon you can also decide which end to hit first, but with the way it's worded I'd like to be extra sure. This is for PFS, by the way, so I need exact rulings, not GM leniency.
It's a double weapon, you can decide which end to use for any given attack if you're not two weapon fighting with it.
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yep..its true...and has brace and does B or P damage.......is it okay to hate a weapon?
Like, normally I would be all munchkin and go, "Aha! I can build a character around this."
But... This makes Double-Bladed Swords seem terrible by comparison. And well. Any build I would've done before would be my Double-Bladed Swords build... And... I love Double-Bladed Swords...
This feels FILTHY.
Would you feel better if I bashed it some for you? a Double-Bladed Sword can be made adamantine for the cost of each end being made adamantine. This yeilds a weapon with hardness 20. You can invest your fortune of adamantine into the weighted Spear and you still get each end of the weapon made out of adamantine, but it's still a hafted weapon made of wood. So while your weapon can bypass hardness < 20, it still only has hardness 5 itself. So Watch those sunder attempts or creature types that damage weapons that strike them.
You might very quickly be wielding weighted splinters!
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...are you seriously telling me that Shepherds can't use a crook to defend their flock without exotic weapon training?
I don't expect shepherds to have EWP, I expect sheep to have low CMDs.
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...are you seriously telling me that Shepherds can't use a crook to defend their flock without exotic weapon training?I don't expect shepherds to have EWP, I expect sheep to have low CMDs.
2nd level sheep herder: Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 11 [using pig farmer as base]
Sheep: Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. trip)Trip attack [+2, -4, +2] = +0 hit vs 15: lots of work to catch JUST A SHEEP.
Grapple attack [+2, -4] = -2 hit vs 11: Better but less than a 50% chance of grappling farm animals...
So, yes, it seems strange that over half the time the sheep runs off with the crook instead of being controlled as expected.