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No
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can't be used untrained. This servant cannot fly, climb, or even swim (though it can walk on water). Its base speed is 15 feet.
The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spell's range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist.
It has no shape and cannot be attacked except by area attacks. It does not have enough substance to block anything.
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Nothing you quoted in any way means
NO. It only means
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can't be used untrained. This servant cannot fly, climb, or even swim (though it can walk on water). Its base speed is 15 feet.
The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spell's range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist.
Hence the FAQ request tag. Given what is written in the spell description no one but an official source can give a valid, RAW answer.
Saying that, I in no way expect a response as it is too small a matter to bother with.
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Hence the FAQ request tag. Given what is written in the spell description no one but an official source can give a valid, RAW answer.
Ah, yes. Another "I have a theological question and I won't accept an answer from anyone except the Pope himself" posting.
Saying that, I in no way expect a response as it is too small a matter to bother with.
You should expect to not get a response because the spell text is clear an unambiguous. Unseen Servant does not create a creature. It creates "an invisible, mindless, shapeless force".
no
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It has two strength, probably no weight, no dexterity score, and no size. What would be the CMD one had to beat to shove it out? Could a tiny-size creature occupy the same space freely? Could it take up four squares like a large creature? You'd need to invent a bunch of rules to support that, or else make it an unreasonably powerful spell, capable of blocking doorways for hours or until AoE damage is applied.
No
It has no shape and cannot be attacked except by area attacks. It does not have enough substance to block anything.An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can't be used untrained. This servant cannot fly, climb, or even swim (though it can walk on water). Its base speed is 15 feet.
The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spell's range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist.
Invisible - creature cannot be seen by mundane means
Mindless - Intelligence score of 0; immune to mind-affecting effectsShapeless Force - No clear definition; this is where any differing interpretations may come from. Substances like gases and liquids are shapeless, except when confined to a container. Gasses and liquids typically don't block movement, but the important distinction is this is a shapeless FORCE, which is even more undefined.
It has a Str Score of 2, which could be argued isn't enough to warrant blocking movement, yet a solid creature with a Str of 1 would effectively block movement, so we need to go back to "what is a shapeless force?". And anyway, a Str score of 2 is only used to calculate what it can lift (it pointedly says "effective" Str score), so we really shouldn't even consider this as a factor when asking if it blocks movement; the "force" sustaining it could very well be made of tougher stuff than its effective Str score used to lift and drag. Again, though, it's not noted either way, so not important anyway.
Finally, it can only be damaged by area attacks. The only other "creatures" I can think of that have a similar caveat is swarms, which can still be damaged by normal attacks, but the general idea is that a fireball is much more effective than a sword. Swarms DON'T block movement.
My interpretation is that it does not block movement, but I think this is a bit more unclear than many are making it seem.
Can I cast faerie fire on the servant?
The spell's effect lists, "one invisible, mindless, shapeless servant". Using natural language, I would assume that anything that is a "servant", must also be a creature. If it said "force" instead of "servant", I'd say no.
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Can I cast faerie fire on the servant?
If it has no shape, what is there for the fire to outline?
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I guess i should say it is for PFS where only what the Pope says actually means anything. Sorry, I do wish it was different but that is the world I live in.
As for the FAQ request in the title, I was just trying to be concise. I am not after a debate on what shapeless means or anything else in the description. I am not trying to be imperious or loftier than thou. I understand that it is a small issue and will most likely not be answered at all but as this is the only avenue I have to get an unambiguous result I gave it a shot.
My only request is that if you feel it could benefit the game we love then click the button to request an FAQ and move on. If not then don't.
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I guess i should say it is for PFS where only what the Pope says actually means anything. Sorry, I do wish it was different but that is the world I live in.
You're in luck. The Pope (one of them, at least) has spoken.
You're in luck. The Pope (one of them, at least) has spoken.I guess i should say it is for PFS where only what the Pope says actually means anything. Sorry, I do wish it was different but that is the world I live in.
GM: Huh, it's kind of strange that there's no range listed, so let's work under an assumed range of 60 feet for this session. Right now you're 40 feet from the hill giant, so that should be no problem for you. Once the session is over, we can research it a bit more and see if we're just missing something in the text.
Player: And if there's not?
GM: Then we can check the FAQ or errata on paizo.com. If it's not there, one of us can ask about it on the rules forum. Just keep in mind that until we can nail down an exact answer, you might get a different range from a different GM. So long as we're both good with 60 feet for today, let's get back to the combat and keep things moving
So isn't the bolded text what we're in right now?
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I guess i should say it is for PFS where only what the Pope says actually means anything. Sorry, I do wish it was different but that is the world I live in.
As for the FAQ request in the title, I was just trying to be concise. I am not after a debate on what shapeless means or anything else in the description. I am not trying to be imperious or loftier than thou. I understand that it is a small issue and will most likely not be answered at all but as this is the only avenue I have to get an unambiguous result I gave it a shot.
My only request is that if you feel it could benefit the game we love then click the button to request an FAQ and move on. If not then don't.
We do understand, but...
Should I put "FAQ request" or “Designer response needed” in my post or thread?
No.
Doing so suggests that your post or thread is more “worthy” of staff attention than someone else’s thread which doesn’t include this text.
Also, because having more FAQ clicks doesn’t make a thread more likely to be answered, doing this to encourage more FAQ clicks doesn’t help you.
Finally, most people insisting they need a designer or developer to weigh in with an official answer are in a situation where they’re disagreeing with the GM or another player and one side refuses to budge unless they get an official response from Paizo, and Paizo doesn’t want to encourage that sort of heavy-handedness.
If you break the rules of using the FAQ function, people are going to call you on it.
For it to be a "creature" in game terms, it must be given statistics, and that includes a Size and how much space it occupies.
We actually know it is medium because, "It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds)" If it counted as a different size those numbers would be different.
Also:
Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Can I cast faerie fire on the servant?If it has no shape, what is there for the fire to outline?
Shapeless
lacking a distinctive or attractive shape.synonyms: formless, amorphous, unformed, indefinite
So it could mean that it doesn't exist at all like you say. Maybe that is unformed? Or formless?
But it could also mean amorphous or indefinite, and it is a blobby shape that doesn't look human. Which is what I think it says.
I can't say you are wrong.
You can't say I'm wrong.
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Threads are not supposed to have "FAQ request" or similar in the title. There is a FAQ on this.
yes, but since paizo faqs are all over the place no one knows where to find them and see this... :)
It isn't a creature and has no space, therefore, it doesn't occupy a space. Unless the spell had specific text about preventing movement it doesn't prevent movement.
We actually know it is medium because, "It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds)" If it counted as a different size those numbers would be different.
It doesn't 'count' as anything. It doesn't have a space, and if you will note it doesn't have Strength. It has an effective (standard) strength of 2. The standard strength vs weight tables are indeed medium and obviously that would be used to explain a spell with an 'effective' strength, but just because that table is used in no way implies it is a creature or that it occupies a space.
It isn't a creature and has no space, therefore, it doesn't occupy a space. Unless the spell had specific text about preventing movement it doesn't prevent movement.
We actually know it is medium because, "It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds)" If it counted as a different size those numbers would be different.It doesn't 'count' as anything. It doesn't have a space, and if you will note it doesn't have Strength. It has an effective (standard) strength of 2. The standard strength vs weight tables are indeed medium and obviously that would be used to explain a spell with an 'effective' strength, but just because that table is used in no way implies it is a creature or that it occupies a space.
Just as Medium is that standard size.
Having a summonable speedbump to block for you for 8 hours that can't be attacked physically seems a little broken.
It is a force, not a creature. Creatures occupy sqauars, forces do not.
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There is a 4th level Cleric spell, Spiritual Ally, that does take up a space.
An ally made of pure force appears in a single 5-foot square within range. The ally takes the form of a servant of your god. The spiritual ally occupies its space, though you and your allies can move through it, since it is your ally.
I highly doubt a 1st level spell, with no defining text such as this, and a much longer duration, has the same effect.
Lets make an assumption....
Sure it takes up a square. However taking up a square doesn't 'block' movement through that square. It only 'blocks' staying in that square at the end of the movement.
It can't attack of opportunity - it can't provide flank - it can't threaten - so who cares?
What's the point of this question - are you going to summon an army of these things to stand around a wizard and thus 'protect' him? Ranged (as it's invisible and shapeless it doesn't provide cover) and reach weapons stop that from being worth the investment, spring attack works as well. I don't get the point of why it matters - and as such I won't keep track of the 'square' it's using - especially considering that 'shapeless' is actually smaller than 'tiny' which can already share squares with foes - so I'll go with:
takes up a square - can share space with others due to size (smaller than tiny) - has no cmd or way to threaten - makes no difference to game regardless of answer.
The rules are pretty lacking about moving through spaces occupied by something other than a "friend" or "enemy" too. The Hell's Rebels AP treats it as difficult terrain.
Sure it takes up a square. However taking up a square doesn't 'block' movement through that square. It only 'blocks' staying in that square at the end of the movement.
It can't attack of opportunity - it can't provide flank - it can't threaten - so who cares?
any melee opponent that wants to attack you when you summon 8 of these things to guard you
any melee opponent that wants to attack you when you summon 8 of these things to guard youSure it takes up a square. However taking up a square doesn't 'block' movement through that square. It only 'blocks' staying in that square at the end of the movement.
It can't attack of opportunity - it can't provide flank - it can't threaten - so who cares?
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
As a formless force any creature counts as three size categories larger - even a diminutive one. As it doesn't threaten it can't take the attack of opportunity.
So that doesn't matter.
As a formless force any creature counts as three size categories larger - even a diminutive one.
This is made up. You can't use this to "correct" something that i said thats "Wrong"
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Sorry for the FAQ request in the title.
Threads are not supposed to have "FAQ request" or similar in the title. There is a FAQ on this.
I have checked the Core Rulebook FAQ page and could not find anything related to unseen servant. Is it more of a general rule about spell effects or something like that?
This is made up. You can't use this to "correct" something that i said thats "Wrong"
As a formless force any creature counts as three size categories larger - even a diminutive one.
Well the idea of a 'formless force' having a 'form' is made up to begin with - I thought we were continuing down that line of thought.
Sorry for the FAQ request in the title.
Threads are not supposed to have "FAQ request" or similar in the title. There is a FAQ on this.I have checked the Core Rulebook FAQ page and could not find anything related to unseen servant. Is it more of a general rule about spell effects or something like that?
It's not a hard rule - but it's also suggested as bad form by the people who answer the questions....
Here is the link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qbfv?The-Rules-FAQ-and-How-to-Use-It
Should I put "FAQ request" or “Designer response needed” in my post or thread?
No.
Doing so suggests that your post or thread is more “worthy” of staff attention than someone else’s thread which doesn’t include this text.
Also, because having more FAQ clicks doesn’t make a thread more likely to be answered, doing this to encourage more FAQ clicks doesn’t help you.
Finally, most people insisting they need a designer or developer to weigh in with an official answer are in a situation where they’re disagreeing with the GM or another player and one side refuses to budge unless they get an official response from Paizo, and Paizo doesn’t want to encourage that sort of heavy-handedness.
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Does an Unseen Servant block the movement of enemies trying to move through it's square?
1) No because it is not a creature. It is a spell effect.
2) No because the spell does not say it creates something that can block movement. It is a shapeless magical force that can be destroyed by AOE damage. Nothing more. Nothing less.|
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@ Ckorik regarding FAQ request etc etc
Ahhhhh I see now. I misunderstood what James was trying to say. I got the part about the FAQ request thing, once again sorry about that and will not happen again.
Then I thought he went on to say there is an FAQ request about the Unseen Servant thing, totally missing the point. Hence my response about not being able to find the FAQ as I was looking for an FAQ on the Unseen Servant spell.
And yet the design team account has posted in multiple threads titled something like "FAQ Request".
Yes, but 28 posts out of the 261 posts that PDT has made (and I included anything which seems to be calling out FAQ or Official Response or Seriously, Paizo? in the title, as well as a thread about the FAQ system itself, but not threads that were actually started by PDT and have FAQ in the title) isn't really all that many.
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I think most people don't care what the answer is for this to warrant a FAQ
it looks like a pretty general consensus of no
Does an Unseen Servant block the movement of enemies trying to move through it's square?
Huh. Good question.
I guess i should say it is for PFS where only what the Pope says actually means anything. Sorry, I do wish it was different but that is the world I live in.
You do realize that society play has human GMs capable of making decisions, right?
I think a more appropriate question is:
Where in the spell description do you get the idea that an Unseen Servant is a creature of any specific size that has space or occupies one or more squares?
It can take damage from area effects, separately from the caster. It also has a move speed, unlike Spectral Hand. Therefore, it must necessarily exist in a specific square.
However, given that:
1) the RAW answer is unclear, and
2) the servant lacks CMD and other vital stats required to interact with creatures trying to pass through its square, and
3) perfectly blocking a square for hours against any number and size of enemies is obviously outside the scope of a first level spell,
it would seem that "no" must be the answer.
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Does an Unseen Servant block the movement of enemies trying to move through it's square?
Strange question. It does mention that it can trigger traps, so I'd argue it must have physical form to some degree. There are also a few mentions regarding the ability to walk or run, so I'd infer it must have limbs to some degree.
That said, nothing in the spell indicates allegiance. It does obey the caster's commands, but can't attack anything. I'd treat it like furniture with regards to moving through it's square. At most, it's difficult terrain, though it would probably attempt to evade creatures stepping on it, so I'd probably not count it unless we had usual circumstances.
With regard to using Faerie Fire, it's clearly described as invisible, so I assume the spell could affect it. A mean GM would have you waste faerie fire on an unseen servant, while a kind GM would probably just tell you what it was without burning the spell. Up to the GM, but they'd probably allow it, should it come up.
On a side note, the spell (Unseen Servant) is Conjuration (Creation), with the PRD defining creation effects as creating "creatures or objects." So if it's not a creature, then it's definitely an object. Faerie Fire affect both objects and creatures, so it definitely applies here, despite the "formless" description.
On a side note, the spell (Unseen Servant) is Conjuration (Creation), with the PRD defining creation effects as creating "creatures or objects." So if it's not a creature, then it's definitely an object. Faerie Fire affect both objects and creatures, so it definitely applies here, despite the "formless" description.
That's an interesting point. I'd say there is more evidence of the servant being a creature rather than an object, but that's the sort of thing that could actually use a dev answer.
Please add another "no" to the pile. It's amorphous energy that can only do the things listed.
Please add another "no" to the pile. It's amorphous energy that can only do the things listed.
Being energy or amorphous doesn't really matter. By the definition of creation spells, it's either an object or a creature. You could argue that it's just an object that does things, but then it's closer to being an animated object, which also probably blocks movement.
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Please add another "no" to the pile. It's amorphous energy that can only do the things listed.Being energy or amorphous doesn't really matter. By the definition of creation spells, it's either an object or a creature. You could argue that it's just an object that does things, but then it's closer to being an animated object, which also probably blocks movement.
No, being an object or creature doesn't really matter. It's formless. faerie fire wouldn't work since there's nothing to outline.