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Although this is about playing in the Campaign Setting, I think this belongs in Advice where you'll get more traffic and input. Flagged for movement.
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Per the Wealth by Level table, a 9th level PC should have about 46,000 gp, not 8,000 gp.
You mention:
+2 Int headband = 4,000 gp
+1 cloak of resist = 1,000 gp
L1 Pearl of Power = 1,000 gp
and a bunch of scrolls = ?
For an NPC, the breakdown should be like:
17,000 Weapons -- Attack Wands, rods*, +1 Dagger
13,500 Protection -- Cloak +2, Ring +2
11,000 Magic -- Headband, PoPs
3,000 Limited Use -- Scrolls, Utility wands
500 Gear -- Silver Dagger, Guidebooks, maps
*A lesser rod of reach can be quite useful, and at 3,000 gp, quite cheap.
You should be a little better than this NPC.
If all your wealth is going into making scrolls, then you need to use party funds for that rather than your own wealth. If your entire party is under funded, then your GM is making you play under hard mode. If it is just you, then the rest of the party is taking advantage of you. You need to make the other players aware of your own lack of wealth, since it makes your PC play worse than an equivalent level NPC. You are essentially playing at -1 or -2 levels since you don't have what you need to play effectively.
In the campaign I am currently in, scrolls are for emergencies, not for everyday use. If you use them in every combat, no wonder you are broke.
/cevah
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How much cash on hand do you have?
What spells are in your spellbook?
Are you allowed to use non-CRB stuff, or are you just self-censoring? I keep thinking of APG stuff, like create pit and Dazing Spell.
Walls of Fire and Ice might be good for your play style. I can't think of any 5th level buffing wizard spells. Maybe mass bear's endurance?
EDIT:
Nevermind, that's a 6th level.
How about cloudkill, summon monster V, telekinesis, teleport, or wall of stone?
Wall of stone is utility and occasional battlefield control; overland flight lets you be out of reach without wasting a round in combat; summon monster V is definitely worthwhile.
You're at the level where you can consider Quicken Spell and with just the core rulebook I'd probably get it now.
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You've cast Evard's Black Tentacles. Was it effective? Is the party fighter smart enough NOT to run into it, now? Is the party smart enough to pincushion anything caught into it?
It's considered one of the most effective 4th level spells. use it and keep using it. If the fighter is stupid enough to keep running into your crowd control, perhaps some wise advice that he not run into the spell that's helping slow down the enemy might be in order.
You are way, way undergeared. If the rest of the party has all that (those medallions EACH are worth more then EVERYTHING you have), then you need to point that out and start taking your fair share. You're being robbed.
As for 5th level spells - the iconic spells are Teleport, Telekinesis, and Overland Flight. M Summon V should be useful, too. If you had some potent low level spells, quicken might be nice, but you don't. If you want to nuke something, you could do Empowered Fireballs or Lightning bolts (not optimal, but certainly fun).
Note that Runelords has a LOT of Giants, and things like Charms and Holds and Dominates are VERY effective against Giants.
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Giants generally have low Reflex saves, but many have immunity to cold, fire, or lightning. At least they're relatively easy to distinguish and identify.
Summon Monster V and 1d3 Summon Monster IV have some solid options, too.
Empower Spell and Quicken Spell are solid options for your 9th level feat. I'm leaning more towards Empower for 9th and Quicken for 11th, if only because you don't seem to have a lot of 1st level spells worth quickening, but you do have a couple decent 2nd level ones (glitterdust in particular. A quickened grease is probably not worth it. Maybe combined with telekinesis or a fighter stuck or in where you want to drop black tentacles. It's the poor man's freedom of movement!
And speaking of poor men, do you have any cash and/or time to upgrade your gear? Particularly cloak of resistance and more pearls of power. You should look like a 1950's housewife by now. Is there a large city you can make and sell/barter magic items in to raise capital?
Are you missing your level 5 bonus feat from being a wizard?
EDIT:
Actually read your character sheet. I see you have Merciful Spell (and it was in your original post. My bad.).
Quickened magic missile is another option. I would consider getting stinking cloud too. If you can't afford a rod of Quicken Spell before then, at 13th level, you'll be able to use a quickened stinking cloud on the things trapped in your black tentacles. Stinking clouds make things nauseated, which means they're restricted to move actions, which means they can't take the standard actions required to escape the grapple of you black tentacles. I would suggest trying to find other dirty spell combinations like that to use with Quicken Spell. Maybe something with web? Lightning bolt is an excellent spell for RotR; many evil giants are immune to fire or cold. Also, it's easier to avoid friendly fire with a line-spell as opposed to a sphere-spell.
I also just realized you get another bonus feat at 10th level. Fun fun fun! Maybe another crafting feat if you have time? You can bribe the other players with wondrous items, weapons, and armor.
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Sihedron Medallion goes for 3,500 gp.
It has two basic PC functions. +1 Resistance, and 1/day False Life. The cloak already covers the +1, and false life cast by you is more effective.
For spells to use, I favor Enervate. Knocking down levels and such can be very effective against bosses. Ray of Enfeeblement can also really hurt melee types as it lowers their hit % as well as damage per hit.
Just looked at your sheet. You list a lesser rod of extend (3K), a wand of CLW (150) [assumed 10 charges on it], and an amulet of natural armor +1 (2K) that you are not keeping.
You should sell the amulet and craft something with it, or better yet wear it as it improves your AC.
/cevah
0-Light
0-Prestidigitation(switch to Message)
1-Comprehend Languages
1-Grease DC 17
1-Mage Armor
1-Magic Missile
1-Magic Weapon
1-Mount
1-Shield
1-Summon Monster I
2-Fox's Cunning
2-Glitterdust DC 18W
2-Hold Person DC 18
2-Mount, Communal
2-Pyrotechnics W17 (blind) or F17 (Str/Dex -4 penalty)
2-Resist Energy
2-Rope Trick
2-See Invisibility
2-Summon Monster 2
3-Deep Slumber
3-Dispel Magic
3-Fireball
3-Fireball (non-lethal)
3-Fly
3-Haste
3-Keen Edge
3-Lightning Bolt
3-Magic Circle vs. Evil
3-Prot from Energy
3-Summon Monster 3
3-Spectral Mount
3-Tiny Hut
4-Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion!!!
4-Dmension Door
4-Secure Shelter
4-Summon Monster IV
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Cevah: Necromancy is one of his opposition schools, so enervation and ray of enfeeblement cost him two slots each.
Now if he made more pearls of power.... ;-)
And definitely keep the rod of extend spell. It's great for long term buffs, like mage armor or summons (especially if you send a Small earth elemental out as a scout via earth glide or an air elemental via flight). Actually, a lot of your 1st-3rd level spells.
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It's actually recommended that if you're taking crafting feats that you be given extra wealth to make up for you using feats on crafting.
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Maybe someday, when/if they make PF 2.0, they will combine the WBL tables and XP tables, and you just get magic items equal to your WBL when you go up in level.
So, if you need 1000 XP to get to level 2, you also get 1000 XP/WBL worth of magic items. Just totally decouple GP and magic items.
End rant
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Cevah: Necromancy is one of his opposition schools, so enervation and ray of enfeeblement cost him two slots each.
Now if he made more pearls of power.... ;-)
And definitely keep the rod of extend spell. It's great for long term buffs, like mage armor or summons (especially if you send a Small earth elemental out as a scout via earth glide or an air elemental via flight). Actually, a lot of your 1st-3rd level spells.
Didn't note opposition school.
A wand of ray of enfeeblement could be worth it.
/cevah
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Nice. Totally worth it. Would he need UMD to activate it, though? I'm a little fuzzy on wizard opposition school rules.
It's actually recommended that if you're taking crafting feats that you be given extra wealth to make up for you using feats on crafting.
Absolutely not. The exact opposite is actually recommended.
Your reward for the feats is being able to gain bonuses earlier and faster, or more equipment sooner. You are not supposed to be REWARDED with more gold for taking something good. Item Creation feats are THE most powerful feats in the game, bar none.
If you make gear for others, that's actually supposed to count against YOUR WBL, not theirs. Which puts a natural brake on amplifying the wealth of the whole party.
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Sihedron Medallion goes for 3,500 gp.
It has two basic PC functions. +1 Resistance, and 1/day False Life. The cloak already covers the +1, and false life cast by you is more effective.
For spells to use, I favor Enervate. Knocking down levels and such can be very effective against bosses. Ray of Enfeeblement can also really hurt melee types as it lowers their hit % as well as damage per hit.
Just looked at your sheet. You list a lesser rod of extend (3K), a wand of CLW (150) [assumed 10 charges on it], and an amulet of natural armor +1 (2K) that you are not keeping.
You should sell the amulet and craft something with it, or better yet wear it as it improves your AC.
/cevah
** spoiler omitted **
Whoops, must have been thinking the rings. Forgot the levels he was talking about.
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It's actually recommended that if you're taking crafting feats that you be given extra wealth to make up for you using feats on crafting.Absolutely not. The exact opposite is actually recommended.
Your reward for the feats is being able to gain bonuses earlier and faster, or more equipment sooner. You are not supposed to be REWARDED with more gold for taking something good. Item Creation feats are THE most powerful feats in the game, bar none.
If you make gear for others, that's actually supposed to count against YOUR WBL, not theirs. Which puts a natural brake on amplifying the wealth of the whole party.
False.
Ultimate Camapign
"Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or
value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep
your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth
by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of
negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—
in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game
balance for the default campaign experience expects you
and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values,
so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal
amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC
to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by
about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple
crafting feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states
that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp
worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick’s 8thlevel
wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an
additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If
he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any
excess value the other PCs have because of those items
should count toward Patrick’s additional 8,250 gp worth
of crafted items."
Oh, you're having a different interpretation of wealth by level then I am.
I am counting WBL as the amount of money you spend on stuff you make. So if you should be at 49k WBL, that 49k should be gold spent on stuff you didn't make + gold spent on stuff you did make.
What the gear adds up to is immaterial.
What you said is NOT what you meant. what you said is 'give the crafter extra money cause he spent a feat to make stuff, poor guy'.
What your explanation says is "Expand the caster's wealth by level cap upwards so when you value the stuff he makes, he's still within his cap, cause he's going to blow it out of the water, otherwise."
My way is simpler. Just take the amount he spends on making stuff + the value of stuff he didn't make, and that should be exactly at his cap.
WBL abuse is a hallmark of 3e. People played it for all it was worth with the item creation feats.
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Nice. Totally worth it. Would he need UMD to activate it, though? I'm a little fuzzy on wizard opposition school rules.
No UMD needed since it is on his class list.
DC might suck. A staff of it would be better, but more expensive.
/cevah
PS: Recent find:
Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents for 5K. At will two magic missiles attack. Good for most everything.
Aura faint evocation CL 3rd
Slot none; Price 5,050 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
Description
This +1 quarterstaff is made of wood carved and dyed to look like two entwined asps, one black and one white. At will, the wielder can use the staff to cast magic missile, creating two such missiles. One of the created missiles always takes the form of a glowing white snake, while the other missile always takes the form of a shadowy black snake. When held in hand, the wielder of the quarterstaff of entwined serpents can cast spells as if he had the Eschew Materials feat.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Eschew Materials, magic missile; Price 2,825 gp
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Wall of stone is fun, and Summon V is among the strongest options. Other good core spells include teleport (can help sell unwanted gear, and is a good GTFO option), wall of force (for if you don't want a permanent obstruction), overland flight (it should be up all of an adventuring day, and if you can get an extend rod can be up all day pretty soon), elemental body II (I might ne better, but earth glide, swi speeds, and flight for one spell is great out of combat), and merciful Cone of Cold.
For a feat, craft magical arms and armor is nice because you can make ranged weapons so that the fighters don't have to rush into your fancy control spells. If allowed, the staff of entwined serpents is a good choice for all characters, doubly so for you. (Free eschew materials). Spell Penetration will start becoming more and more useful if you like evocation as more creatures will begin to have SR. Spell Focus evocation might also be a good pick to improve your blasts as energy resistance starts making those saves more and more crucial.
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Q-GD is 6th level w/o Magical Lineage GD.
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My way is simpler. Just take the amount he spends on making stuff + the value of stuff he didn't make, and that should be exactly at his cap.
Simpler in that you give out the exact same amount of wealth and then don't worry about how the crafting feat will affect WBL.
However if you want to check how much WBL a character has while the game is in progress, you'll have to figure out which items the character made vs. the items they found. That's a pain.
It also means that the value of a crafting feat could be close to nothing or almost doubling your WBL, depending on how much time you get to craft. That's a lot of variability, and it's why the devs suggested that as a guideline crafting should increase the overall value of your gear by 25%-50% depending on how many crafting feats you have.
WBL abuse is a hallmark of 3e. People played it for all it was worth with the item creation feats.
Really? I don't think I ever saw someone craft in 3E. Cost you XP.
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I was in a "save the world"-type campaign where we couldn't go to civilized areas to buy stuff, so my druid took Craft Wand. Mostly for the CLW, but I think I made one or two higher level spell wands.
We were a party of druid (archery plus standard druid shenanigans), fighter (khopesh & shield), and arcane trickster with a couple fighter levels (two-weapon fighting).
The arcane trickster seemed like a dabbler in magic, since he mostly fought with daggers. Then he started dropping enervations one day and we were like: Woah.
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Paizo APs can be notoriously stingy in giving out cash, then they drop it to you in spades (if you ever get there for a lack of gear). There was a certain AP there's no where to buy or sell ANYTHING for the entire book(lv 1-4)....and except at the end of that book there was no magical loot...all you'd get is mundane javelins, spears and hide/leather armor. Just count it as part of the adventure, roll with it and be glad you're not a martial class, which are more multi gear dependent.
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WBL abuse is a hallmark of 3e. People played it for all it was worth with the item creation feats.Really? I don't think I ever saw someone craft in 3E. Cost you XP.
The abuse came from the feats that reduced crafting cost. I nabbed a few. I also was almost a whole level behind in XP from all of the crafting I did. This was before there were accepted ways to have others pay XP or spend gold for XP. Since the campaign was homebrew, and characters got 1/2 XP on any no-show, no one had the same XP. Got to level 15 before it ended. I had finally made the Vampiric Sword that gained you 1/2 damage you did as healing (+3 bonus, CL 15). Never got to use it. Sigh.
/cevah
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That's the worst!
The longest campaign I was in went from 1st to 16th, then the DM moved away. I never got to use 9th level spells!
... which is why using a gate'd or conjured creature's wish to get 15k-value magic items was really far, far better than bothering to craft your own in 3E (or whatever item you wanted, in 3.5). Simply "pay" them by using their wish abilities to make them wealthier faster and easier than if they'd been unable to themselves, and a moderate diplomacy check, and you're pretty golden.
PF doesn't really have that any more, but it's kind of implied (to the point that it's hard to take anything else away) that it should work that way, in the GMC on handling wish-granting creatures.
The reason PFS doesn't have Item crafting feats is because of 3e's experience with item crafters for their Living Greyhawk campaign. The abuse that went on with item crafting was extreme.
And the fact it cost xp wasn't hurtful in the slightest, because of the way the xp rules worked. Namely, lower level characters got more xp then higher level characters. So, the mage just lagged a level back, and got tons of 'free xp' he could just plow into making magical items.
Also, the 1/25 ratio meant 1000 xp got you a 25k magic item, which is a +5 armor, among other things. Small sacrifice for big gains, if you had the gold.
In pathfinder, the xp cost wouldn't even be a factor, because you gain a LOT more xp in pathfinder then in 3e. The cost is nothing.
But, no item crafter in 3e is ever going to lag more then a level behind the rest of the party. The xp 'cost' just isn't there, and the benefits can be immense.
... I've never experienced that in 3e ever. 3.5 with some of the mitigators? Sure... sometimes. But not 3e. And again, conjuring was the real money-maker.
EDIT: I will note that I didn't do organized play way back when. But characters died at lower levels, and failed to reach access to important spells. You had to meet all the prerequisites to make stuff, and it was a serious drain, and often left people at serious risk in our games. Crafting mages were dying mages... and that got expensive really quickly.
Conjuring required a very permissive DM and either Candle shenanigans or 11th level.
The construction rules were very easy to follow and to abuse, and only got stronger with levels. Since there was nothing to balance it out for a party, just giving the mage or crafters the money to make all your gear for you, and paying him back by guarding him as he lagged a level behind, worked out great for everyone.
I'm reminded of the tale of the guy who was 'eternally 11th' in Living Greyhawk. He didn't want to hit 12 and retire, so he put all his xp and gold into magic items and refused to level up. He had ungodly amounts of gear.
Even in 3e, crafting was easy to abuse. Probably moreso, since many of the limitations of bonuses and stuff weren't in effect.
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Even in 3e, crafting was easy to abuse. Probably moreso, since many of the limitations of bonuses and stuff weren't in effect.
You mean the limit of +6 stat enhancement? That is in 3.x*, but not PF.
/cevah
*Epic rules required to make > +6.
It's a de facto rule, not a de jure rule. You'll notice they've never put in a higher bonus for magic items. Leads to all sorts of silly stuff if they did.
Indeed, just trying to find competence bonuses higher then +10 isn't easy (Greater Stealth is all that comes easily to mind), and they could feasibly go to +20, or higher.
Conjuring required a very permissive DM and either Candle shenanigans or 11th level.
A "very permissive DM" meaning, "DM who follows the rules" than yes, you are correct.
The construction rules were very easy to follow and to abuse, and only got stronger with levels. Since there was nothing to balance it out for a party, just giving the mage or crafters the money to make all your gear for you, and paying him back by guarding him as he lagged a level behind, worked out great for everyone.
That's hilarious! While I believe you that people play that way, that is literally never how it worked out for any game I've ever played in, or for people I knew that played the game during that time.
Also, if anything, that kind of crafting requires permissive GMing. Crafting either is a) stuff in the book, or b) GM permission.
I'm reminded of the tale of the guy who was 'eternally 11th' in Living Greyhawk. He didn't want to hit 12 and retire, so he put all his xp and gold into magic items and refused to level up. He had ungodly amounts of gear.
Hahahah~! Funny guy.
What did he do with it all?
Even in 3e, crafting was easy to abuse. Probably moreso, since many of the limitations of bonuses and stuff weren't in effect.
You have me curious about the differences between 3E and others.
NON-EDIT: Hmp. I cannot find my 3E DMG. I wonder if I ever actually had one, now, or just borrowed it. Sheesh, that's been a long time.
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It's a de facto rule, not a de jure rule. You'll notice they've never put in a higher bonus for magic items. Leads to all sorts of silly stuff if they did.
Indeed, just trying to find competence bonuses higher then +10 isn't easy (Greater Stealth is all that comes easily to mind), and they could feasibly go to +20, or higher.
You are right that they are hard to find. Here is what I found:
Salve of SlipperinessGreater Shadow Armor
Greater Slick Armor
Sniper's Helmet
Scent Trail
Hunter's Eye
It may also be de-facto, but since 3.x did have a limit and a rule for exceeding, but PF removed those, I think it is more a GP issue. +8 Stat = 64,000 GP. +8,+8 Stat = 160,000 GP. +8,+8,+8 Stat = 256,000 GP. Not easy to afford, and takes a while to craft.
/cevah
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Yeah, and most of those are 1/day or consumables. The Sniper's Helmet just repurposes True Strike's insight bonus to a competence bonus (probably to keep the cost down, and it's still 9k).
In 3e, for example, there were no upper limits on Competence, Insight, Luck, Morale or other bonuses. So, you could totally make a +100 Competence bonus item, if you had the money.
============
tactics,
Anyone can argue 'DM Following the rules.' However, those same DM's will definitely argue that letting Wishes go 'for free' or less then their material component cost, or whatever, is also not part of the rules. It's just considered an exploit.
As for the level behind rule...you had to be rules savvy to use it. And there was no problem sticking to just normal items, and not trying to minmax benefits. You were getting all your gear for half price, i.e. doubling your WBL. This only got stronger and stronger with time.
If you campaign had significant amounts of downtime, instead of 1-20 in 3 months like most AP's, time wasn't an issue at all. The casters taking a couple weeks to craft up gear for everyone was only a problem for those who couldn't craft. It was a logical and reasonable thing to do, and if you didn't have a time-sensitive campaign, the proper way to do things.
It also nicely got around the GM not liking magic item shops, and everything.
As for that guy...he had an 11th level mage with the gear of a 17th level character. +5 everything, consumables, every scroll and potion he could want, blah blah blah. Who was still level 11 so he could play any module. If there was travel time during module play, he made or improved magic items for the other players, too!
They eventually instituted a rule where you tracked ALL xp received, instead of retained, to figure your level, and he was forced into retirement.
You only have to look at the Epic Rules to see the limits for 3e. Those limits were NOT THERE before the Epic Rules...I think the only ones truly in effect were the +5 Inherent bonuses, because I think those were limited in the rules for Wishes.
Anyone can argue 'DM Following the rules.' However, those same DM's will definitely argue that letting Wishes go 'for free' or less then their material component cost, or whatever, is also not part of the rules. It's just considered an exploit.
I'll cede most of the other things noted, as, again, I was never in organized play, and can't find any old 3e DMGs to look stuff up, but I want to point this out for a moment.
When a GM changes or alters a rule, that is the GM's prerogative... but it needs to be noted and accepted as a GM altering the rules.
"Following the rules" isn't being "permissive" but rather, "following the rules" - "being permissive" means allowing questionable interpretations (i.e. interpretations that, due to language and general trends, don't fit), whereas following the rules just means, "The rules say this, so okay."
This is a very important difference.
It should be noted that I am a permissive GM. I like cleverness. I can't always handle cleverness and still maintain a game, but I'll talk to my players if that happens. Otherwise, if they see something and figure, "It can be interpreted this way." I'll often allow it, unless I just can't see it.
A GM saying, "No, you may not do exactly what the rules say you can do, because I feel it's cheesy or otherwise doesn't follow what I consider to be a good or balanced time." is well within their rights to do exactly that... but they are changing the rules in order to do so, and need to discuss this with their players.
Getting wishes for inexpensive is not inherently an exploit.
(There is no way to get truly "free" wishes in any d20 system, that I know of, except via the absolutely hilarious Pazuzu method.)
It can be an exploit... but exploits aren't inherently bad things, regardless.
Every time a player comes up with an idea that goes, "The rules allow me to do X, so if I do X in Y situation, that helps us live a lot more than just charging at the bad guys!" it's the same principle on display. The only metric, then, that something becomes exploitive (or rather, depending on how strictly grammarian you're feeling, and which dictionary you're using, exploitative) is when a GM feels it is.
This makes it strictly a matter of restrictive preference, not of permissive rational.
Hence, "If by 'permissive' you mean, 'following the rules'" - because in this case the more "permissive" reading is actually following what's actually written, and what's supported both in-text and in the modules of those who designed the game to run the way way it's written. The "restrictive" version is applied because GMs couldn't handle (or just don't like) the rules as they were written and tell the (hopefully) cooperative story they wanted to with their friends (at least not in a way they felt comfortable).
If by, "permissive" you mean either, "not following the rules" or "allowing someone to circumvent the right way of doing things" than it's an incorrect use of the term.
I'm permissive - but using crafting rules, or conjuring creatures exactly like it says you use crafting rules or conjuring isn't. A given table or environment might not function well with it, and for that table it's probably a good idea to change them, but it's the rules, and that's the standard presumption of how the game is expected to be played by the rules we share in common.
Tactics, the problem with the whole wishes thing is the game assumes that NPC's are not blatantly doing the same thing.
If it's so easy, every single NPC that can afford the right summons or a scroll should be getting +5 Inherents to all ability scores, and be doped out with gear.
It's not a PC thing. It's a GAME thing.
It blows WBL for PC's out of the water, but the tactic is never reflected among NPC's who, with much less wealth, would also be clamoring to use it. Moreso, it's not reflected among monsters who can't cast spells or don't have access to buying stuff...and if it did so, then everyone would be FORCED to use the tactic, as suddenly all your 11 hd+ monsters would be that much tougher and harder to kill.
It's a rules exploit, and only then if you go PURELY by mechanics. As soon as you introduce campaign continuity, any amount of role-playing, and consequences for actions into the picture, it fizzles instantly.
People think they are clever for thinking this stuff up, but don't realize that if such loopholes exist, they will be widely used and abused, and suddenly they aren't clever...they are looking down the noses of 20 Tarrasque Simulacra and 20 clones of Nex, and realizing the ganders vastly outnumber the goose. A Wish-based economy is NOT what the game is based on.
I would totally *&^*& over anyone who tried this tactic in my games. Wishes aren't meant to be handed out like paper towels, and efreet are not your friendly neighborhood Wish suppliers. If you want to play them like robots handing out wishes, insert x in trade...meh. I play genies as being unable to personally benefit from wishes...hence they have no incentive to cast the spell for others. Likewise, they are perfectly aware of the market value of their wishes, and cannot be compelled to cast wishes on behalf of others. Those who enslave genies for wishes earn the ire of all genies, who are not above approaching their enemies and offering free wishes to muck with the PC's. Likewise, efreet are more then willing to twist the wording of wishes in the historical sense in a malevolent manner, satisfying their historical craftiness. If you want no-risk wishes, cast them yourself.
So, yeah, it's a purely mechanical exploit, that ignores wider non-mechanical issues. A DM letting the PC's get away with it is opening a monstrous bag of worms that no PC or party should want to happen.
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p216:
Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).
p221:
Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5.
p246:
Amuket of Health: The amulet grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.
p262:
Manual of Gainful Exercise: If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to her Strength score.
p301:
Wish: Note: an inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Some of these are limits, and some are examples.
/cevah
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Tactics, the problem with the whole wishes thing is the game assumes that NPC's are not blatantly doing the same thing.
There are lots of things the game presumes that the NPCs are not doing that the PCs do on a regular basis.
That said, I can point to a module that the NPCs do exactly that. Not sure if you want me to, as it contains spoilers, but, while not specified in a written way, there is a character that, if you go by rules, has exactly what said character should have as an NPC... plus effectively unlimited wishes.
If it's so easy, every single NPC that can afford the right summons or a scroll should be getting +5 Inherents to all ability scores, and be doped out with gear.
Here is the disconnect. I don't actually presume that anything the PCs do is easy.
The weakest of PCs typically have an average of roughly 16 hit points at sixth level* - that's presuming no particular constitution to write home about. A dagger deals 1d4 damage. If that PC dumped strength (and why wouldn't they? They're already dumping CON and are a d4 hit dice...), then they could easily do 1d4-1 or even 1d4-2 damage to themselves. So why don't they just stab themselves in the face as an intimidation tactic**? At most, that dagger deals 6 damage***. They could take that two times. Some GMs might answer, "Well, that's a coup de grace." except, by the rules, it's not (you don't take a full-round action - you just stab yourself), and regardless, even if it is, that fortitude save is going to peak at 16 - a roll of 14 or higher presuming the d4 class has nothing to boos themselves (which, by 6th level, is unlikely).
Generally, it's because that's dangerous, stupid, and crazy. Calling forth the denizens of <place> and binding them to your eternal service is begging for bad things to happen - in fact, it's paying for the privilege.
Getting wishes via outsiders is a powerful thing, but it's never entirely without risk, and there are often other things that come up when it's done safely - costs, negotiations, limits, and so on.
More than that, how, exactly, are these NPCs aware of everything it takes to do that kind of thing? They need: knowledge (arcana) to know this kind of thing is possible, knowledge (planes) to know which creatures to summon, and spellcraft to have any clue of what spells or items are necessary.
Then, even if they hypothetically know everything necessary to put it all together... they still might not. This isn't even weird: it took us a thousand years before we could do anything with steam power, and that was making a pipe organ function in one town in France, and six hundred more years before anything significant was done with it... in Spain.
But I'll grant that it's unlikely that no one figured it out. But it's really unlikely that many figured it out (and feel comfortable and confident enough to try it), and those who do may well end up being destroyed for their efforts... and if they're not, there is extremely precious little reason for them to tell anyone. Generally, it's a secret dies with them (and informs plot hooks for future generations).
But to say that it's unheard of is wrong. In the Pathfinder GMC, there is not only a description of how to handle wish when granted by a SLA (they suggest it be used... permissively), but also a short story where one of the iconics does that exact thing. There are at least two Paizo APs that have "free wishes" as a plot element for NPCs (one as a throw-away moment, and one as a major recurring theme), and at least one major NPC in a module that makes excellent use of exactly that trick.
Heck, prior to PF, in 3.5, there was a novel where an NPC engaged in similar tricks, and in 3rd, two different NPCs in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting used the wish method to attain certain powers and abilities they couldn't have otherwise acquired.
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It's not a PC thing. It's a GAME thing.
It blows WBL for PC's out of the water, but the tactic is never reflected among NPC's who, with much less wealth, would also be clamoring to use it. Moreso, it's not reflected among monsters who can't cast spells or don't have access to buying stuff...and if it did so, then everyone would be FORCED to use the tactic, as suddenly all your 11 hd+ monsters would be that much tougher and harder to kill.
It's a rules exploit, and only then if you go PURELY by mechanics. As soon as you introduce campaign continuity, any amount of role-playing, and consequences for actions into the picture, it fizzles instantly.
I believe I've adequately demonstrated in the above that this isn't true. But, if you wish (heh), I'll cite my sources.
Spoilers ensue.
Beyond that, there's an entire fiction story written on the cover of one of the books about a guy who finally manages to gain 1,000 wishes for himself, after excessive trading and sacrifices, so that he might become the next ruler of genie kind... only to find out that it's already been done when he's captured and executed. So... again, more precedent in-universe.
The monstrous four-armed demon spoke in a surprisingly pleasant tenor voice. “And what, pray tell, is it you so desire?” Setiyel paused, steeling his resolve. “I wish suffering for my family, tenfold for each wrong visited upon myself. I wish the lord mayor’s daughter and rank, and his head resting beneath my boot. I wish for such wealth that even a Qadiran merchant would weep with envy.” The demon’s laugh boomed throughout the cavern. “Is that all, little one? I expected ambition.”
Why is this significant? Because there aren't that many demons that grant wishes, and only one of those kinds definitively fits the (vague) description mentioned... a creature that only grants one wish per month.
It gives quite a bit of potential advice (and suggests you suit it to your campaign) - offering a hierarchy that a wish cast by a player (for example) is likely weaker than a wish granted by an outsider's SLA. It actively encourages this as a reasonable method of doing so... which is noted as being outside the actual rules of the PF version of the spell. To be clear, this isn't the only way it suggests that you interpret it - but it does offer this as a solid campaign-making segment, while pointing out a story of a guy who reached for more than a typical binding would be expected to give you right above it.
People think they are clever for thinking this stuff up, but don't realize that if such loopholes exist, they will be widely used and abused, and suddenly they aren't clever...they are looking down the noses of 20 Tarrasque Simulacra and 20 clones of Nex, and realizing the ganders vastly outnumber the goose. A Wish-based economy is NOT what the game is based on.
You say that like it doesn't actually exist in-game.
There is literally a campaign setting where one guy had dozens of clones; in PF/Golarion, Nex literally fueled ludicrous numbers (apparently continuously renewable, if not "unlimited") wish spells in his ancient war with Geb. That's exactly what happened.
But all of that is an aside: the point is, people are being clever. They really, truly are. They just aren't necessarily the only ones being clever.
I would totally *&^*& over anyone who tried this tactic in my games.
I'm... really glad I don't play in your games, then. I mean, I'm glad it works for you and your group! That's great! To each their own!
Wishes aren't meant to be handed out like paper towels, and efreet are not your friendly neighborhood Wish suppliers. If you want to play them like robots handing out wishes, insert x in trade...meh.
Curiously... no one I've ever played with has ever presumed them to function like robots.
I play genies as being unable to personally benefit from wishes...hence they have no incentive to cast the spell for others.
I don't know if you mean, "they can't use their wish ability to grant a wish for themselves or other genies" - which they can't - or, "there is nothing that a person could wish for that would benefit them" - which is demonstrably untrue in every published setting I've ever played in, and goes against a core conceit of both of the APs I mentioned above.
Like I said, if it's fun for you guys, more power to you! It's just not the mainline presumption for the game we play.
Likewise, they are perfectly aware of the market value of their wishes, and cannot be compelled to cast wishes on behalf of others.
The first is reasonable, the second is explicitly against the rules and fluff in multiple places.
Those who enslave genies for wishes earn the ire of all genies, who are not above approaching their enemies and offering free wishes to muck with the PC's.
... which is a perfectly legitimate thing, if the PCs are unwilling to play nice. But if they're unwilling to play nice, you, as GM, need to inform them in a manner consistent with your group's comfort level and style that you play hardball ahead of time.
Likewise, efreet are more then willing to twist the wording of wishes in the historical sense in a malevolent manner, satisfying their historical craftiness. If you want no-risk wishes, cast them yourself.
I don't believe I've ever advocated no-risk wishes.
That seems to be a curious presumption that many have about such situations, "Anyone that doesn't play like I do, does so in a manner that is explicitly against the rules or fluff that is written."
So, yeah, it's a purely mechanical exploit, that ignores wider non-mechanical issues. A DM letting the PC's get away with it is opening a monstrous bag of worms that no PC or party should want to happen.
This is wrong and very presumptive about the way others play and their motivations for doing so.
Of course it's a mechanical exploit, in the sense of someone coming up with a clever idea, and applying it. It's not (inherently, at least) a mechanical exploit in the sense of doing something the wrong way or in a manner that will somehow break the game.
Some games and GMs and players and so on cannot handle it. That's fine. There are some things that I can't handle, too. Everyone is that way.
But it's definitively RAW (by both fluff and crunch), it's rather RAI (considering it's been placed in multiple APs and more), and it's neither inherently game breaking, nor is it inherently bad for the game or play (though specific groups may have styles that don't mesh - which is fine). It's not purely mechanical, and it's not even against the intent or general trends or weight of the system as-designed, nor the system as-used by those designers.
Some will undoubtedly use it wrong, or cause problems, or whatsoever have you. That's normal. But that's not an inherent part of the use of unlimited wishes. Feel free to ban them, restrict them, or do whatever you like, as GM. That's the right thing to do, even if it's not the RAW thing to do. After all, the most important rule is the most important rule, even if that means going against the others.
In any event, I'll leave you to your gaming and will drop the subject - you seem very convinced (based on apparent-tone via word-choice - always difficult to read for sure over text), and I'm uncertain that further discussion will be valuable... beyond which we've greatly strayed from the OP's initial request.
Suffice it to say that while I'm glad you and yours enjoy that style of gaming, I'm glad we do not (and have quite enjoyed more than one game in which that was the paradigm; it turned out quite well, over-all, and the world kept turning, and our stories played out quite interestingly).
I'm sorry you don't have a similar experience, unless you don't want one, in which case, I'm glad. Peace, and I wish* you happy gaming.
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[Weeps at the beauty of it all]
[Replication attempt: FAILURE]
[Initiating vow to become real boy, but not until after John Connor dies/is saved (programming TBD)]