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An interesting aspect of this discussion I hadn't thought of, until I saw it mentioned in a random comment on some article....
What would the two men who created Captain America (Simon and Kirby) think of making Steve Rogers a near life-long member of an organization so heavily associated with Nazis. It'd be interesting to hear their perspective.
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Another bit of irony, and this goes back (for me at least) to the late 80s, when it was revealed Red Skull was still alive in a cloned Steve Rogers body. In speaking of his resurrection, Skull commented on how he had come back in the perfectly Aryan body of his enemy. It made me wonder for the first time if Kirby and Simon made Rogers look as he did as a sort of "f*!* off" to the whole idea of the Master Race. I can't recall if either of them ever confirmed that was the idea, but it was interesting.
Man, people sure are vile f&~*ing garbage for going "This idea is kinda stupid and I don't feel like reading it".
When did I say this?
Quote me.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
...Guys, Captain America is going to be OKAY.
The thing that I just find amazing is that a lot of the people hating the book aren't or haven't even been reading Cap for the past few years or so. Reading Newsarama or other comic books sites or reading Wikpedia doesnt count. I admit that i've been reading Nick Spencer's run off and on mostly because i'm not that big of a fan as Sam as Cap. (I know SACRILEGE.) But prior to that I was reading Rick Remender's run on Cap every month.
The fact that a cosmic cube was involved in Steve's recovery (during the end of the STANDOFF event) and the penchant that thing has with messing with people's memories and REALITY ITSELF is enough for me to trust where this story is going without devolving into the sometimes violent knee jerk reaction that's been happening for the past day or so.
I'm often reminded that there's a reason I despise comic fandom. During the 90's it was the HEAT fiasco when rabid fans threatened the life of writer Ron Marz and his then toddler daughter over what he was doing in the pages of Green Lantern.
Most recently it was the bile thrown at Marvel for the introduction of Miles Morales and then the introduction of Thor as a woman (I'm not sure if her identity has been spoiled to the masses at large so I'm not going to spoil it here). Now this thing with Captain America. Not all of them obviously but enough to not want to generally be associated with my fellow fan. Even though I might be one of the biggest comic book nerds I know.
When I saw on Twitter that people were reacting so
I'm still waiting for that exact quote.
I also love you you bolded the one sentence and completely ignored the sentence after that which states:
Not all of them obviously but enough to not want to generally be associated with my fellow fan.
You seem to be the ONLY ONE who's deliberately misunderstanding what I was saying as two other people pretty much READ and UNDERSTOOD my post and did me the honor (Thanks Gentlemen/Ladies) of breaking down almost point by point what I was saying.
It's not my fault that your ability to comprehend pretty clearly written english is shaky.
This is the second time you've come after me fairly aggressively on these boards. Stop. I'm not the passive aggressive type. If I have something to say to YOU? I'll say it DIRECTLY TO YOU.
I'll keep in mind for the future to not fit any of your posts into the context of the rest of the thread. This is clearly where you go to complain about things on Twitter, I don't know why I assumed otherwise. It's only logical that it is here you would voice those complaints.
I'll keep in mind for the future to not fit any of your posts into the context of the rest of the thread. This is clearly where you go to complain about things on Twitter, I don't know why I assumed otherwise. It's only logical that it is here you would voice those complaints.
How about we take this off this thread and let people continue their discussion. hmmm?
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An interesting aspect of this discussion I hadn't thought of, until I saw it mentioned in a random comment on some article....
What would the two men who created Captain America (Simon and Kirby) think of making Steve Rogers a near life-long member of an organization so heavily associated with Nazis. It'd be interesting to hear their perspective.
I'm sure they'd despise it, if that is actually the full story arc.
Having done their own stories that involved misleading the readers for a time, I suspect they'd want to see where the story was actually going before leaping to judgement.
Probably.
Me, I like a good leap on occasion. It's about all the exercise I get time for these days....
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Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.
Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
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Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
Maybe I should try KFC. No one would care if that crap was wasted.
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Maybe I should try KFC. No one would care if that crap was wasted.Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
There's always Chick-Fil-A.
Callous Jack,
Don't you dare! That's a foul, FOUL place. *shudders* *still has nightmares*
A-Zombie,
I wouldn't care that's for sure. Most of my frozen chicken though comes from Kroger's.
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have to admit some people do take things too far. Issuing death threats at the writter is a bit much for just not liking the direction a story is going.
Yes it's a stupid idea, that makes no sense and spits on the character's long history.
But death threats are too much
Just don't buy the comic
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Maybe I should try KFC. No one would care if that crap was wasted.Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
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Sacrilege! BURN THE HERETIC!!!
Relax, kid. It's not like we're screaming "Burn the witch".
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F~&@ing m++&!%#$@&*$ son-of-a-b@%+# s&#! f~%~ bastard Barbara Streisand!potty mouth!Don't forget, I'm f~*%ing cussing a lot!no, you're just b!*~#ing and swearing you will never read it and quietly encouraging others to do the same, which is worse for the comic.
hey let's not say anything we can't take back!
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Another bit of irony, and this goes back (for me at least) to the late 80s, when it was revealed Red Skull was still alive in a cloned Steve Rogers body. In speaking of his resurrection, Skull commented on how he had come back in the perfectly Aryan body of his enemy. It made me wonder for the first time if Kirby and Simon made Rogers look as he did as a sort of "f+@$ off" to the whole idea of the Master Race. I can't recall if either of them ever confirmed that was the idea, but it was interesting.
I remember that too.
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Speaking as someone unfamiliar with Twitter, I wonder if the person who named it did so with the intention of including the word "twit"?
Futurama did that already.
Maybe I should try KFC. No one would care if that crap was wasted.Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
I'm pretty sure when I get killed during the zombie apocalypse, it won't be by being eaten. It will be when two larger zombies hold me down ankle and wrist and a third prys my mouth open while a fourth drops KFC into my mouth.
While I scream and plead for mercy, you will watch from the corner, smiling a thin, super villain-y smile.
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On Steve Rogers #1, Anti-Semitism, and Publicity Stunts
And you thought I was angry.
I'm pretty sure when I get killed during the zombie apocalypse, it won't be by being eaten. It will be when two larger zombies hold me down ankle and wrist and a third prys my mouth open while a fourth drops KFC into my mouth.
While I scream and plead for mercy, you will watch from the corner, smiling a thin, super villain-y smile.
Well, Australians eat Marmite and Vegemite, and are rumored to drink Fosters*, for the same reasons monarch caterpillars consume milkweed. By the time the average Australian reaches adulthood, their flesh has absorbed these toxins for almost two decades, and thus become foul-tasting and poisonous. This discourages other wildlife** from attempting to consume them.*** Ergo, it seems reasonable that by consuming delicious Bon Chon fried chicken, NYC pizza, giant deli sandwiches, and bubble tea, Freehold is actually making himself more delicious to the inevitable future hordes of undead.
* This is so untrue, it borders on outright slander and libel. No Australian with functioning tastebuds consumes Fosters except as either part of a bet or to convince non-natives to drink it, thus enabling the mysteriously self-replenishing substance to be exported.
** This defense, however, poses no deterrent to bites from other Australians.
*** Most wildlife no longer attempts to eat Australian humans, but does enjoy biting out of sheer spite. Sometimes the spite is so high, a predator may get carried away, accidentally consuming most or all of an Australian before the predator realizes what is happening.
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Maybe I should try KFC. No one would care if that crap was wasted.Being from Louisiana, I prefer to express my fanboy rage via voodoo dolls. The chicken sacrifices never work though. Stoopid Popeye's.Funny. My frozen chicken sacrifices to Orcus by the light of the full moon generally are accepted.
You must have a faulty connection.
I'm pretty sure when I get killed during the zombie apocalypse, it won't be by being eaten. It will be when two larger zombies hold me down ankle and wrist and a third prys my mouth open while a fourth drops KFC into my mouth.
While I scream and plead for mercy, you will watch from the corner, smiling a thin, super villain-y smile.
Not sure. You're not on any of my lists.
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Sacrilege! BURN THE HERETIC!!!
Relax, kid. It's not like we're screaming "Burn the witch".
Hey now! That first comment was regarding the completely different subject of digital comments, and thus was perfectly reasonable.
Besides, witches and heretics are not always the same thing.
Exactly A-Zombie. One is an awesome PC character, the other is something Murder hobos kill and take their loot.
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People need to take a deep breath. Yeah, it's stupid, but in a few months or so it'll all turn out to be brainwashing, or a dream, or a clone, or this isn't the real Earth-616 Cap, or some other silliness.
Plus, it's no where near as stupid as what DC is doing at the moment.
You know, after having seen more and read more about DC Rebirth, it sounds like they are taking some big steps in the right direction. It's almost enough to get me to start reading DC stuff. I've given up on Marvel, even more so with the whole Evil Cap publicity stunt they pulled. Eh, I'm probably done with Marvel and DC for a while. I'm almost completely done with comics anyways, except for Rat Queens.
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Eh, I'm probably done with Marvel and DC for a while. I'm almost completely done with comics anyways, except for Rat Queens.
I'm still getting a few regular titles from the two big boys, but it's mostly just short runs or stuff that probably won't last long: Doctor Fate, Swamp Thing, Legends of Tomorrow, Justice League 3001, Omega Men (sadly almost done),Dark Knight III, Future Quest (just added), Moon Knight, Agents of Shield, Daredevil. I find a lot of titles like this aren't heavily affected by the other crap they pull on the main books.
I also get pretty much any Conan (or REH-based) series from Darkhorse, plus sometimes their Predator or Alien books.
And, of course, I get the Pathfinder comics.
Recently, however, I added the new Micronauts series from IDW, and I've got their new Rom: Space Knight series on my list.
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It's not like this hasn't been done before...
Or even EARLIER by Jack Kirby HIMSELF HERE
Superhero comics have kinda ALWAYS been gimmicky. Captain America (a fictional character) punching Adolf HItler (a REAL person) in the head on the cover of Captain America Comics #1 was a GIMMICK. It was just a gimmick that most people LIKED.
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It's not like this hasn't been done before...
Or even EARLIER by Jack Kirby HIMSELF HERE
Interesting point. I wonder if those writers gave interviews stating this was the real Cap. Not brainwashing, or a clone, or a shapeshifter, etc.
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Interesting point. I wonder if those writers gave interviews stating this was the real Cap. Not brainwashing, or a clone, or a shapeshifter, etc.It's not like this hasn't been done before...
Or even EARLIER by Jack Kirby HIMSELF HERE
The funny thing is the lack of accessibility to the writers back then kinda forced people to just let the actual story stand on it's own.
Personally I think that Brevoort and Spencer are full of it. I think that they are probably more than willing to lie to protect the story and let it unfold on it's own. Now your milage may vary on how you feel about that. Personally I'm fine with them doing what they have to do to keep their story under wraps. But other people may feel differently.
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From what I've been reading, that Captain America #1 image wasn't just a gimmick, but a big time political statement. We weren't even at war yet. Wikipedia even points out that Kirby and Simon received death threats. Granted, it's Wikipedia, but I can believe it.I think in this case the line between gimmick and political statement was a very thin one though. If it were ONLY a political statement then it was one they could have made on the inside of the book. Putting it on the cover was something that they knew would draw eyes and attention to the book. So while yes it may have well been a political statement we shouldn't fully discount the fact that it was also a gimmick as well.
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall back then. Would have been interesting to see the conversation that lead to the cover art decision.
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall back then. Would have been interesting to see the conversation that lead to the cover art decision.From what I've been reading, that Captain America #1 image wasn't just a gimmick, but a big time political statement. We weren't even at war yet. Wikipedia even points out that Kirby and Simon received death threats. Granted, it's Wikipedia, but I can believe it.I think in this case the line between gimmick and political statement was a very thin one though. If it were ONLY a political statement then it was one they could have made on the inside of the book. Putting it on the cover was something that they knew would draw eyes and attention to the book. So while yes it may have well been a political statement we shouldn't fully discount the fact that it was also a gimmick as well.
There has got to be a book out there somewhere with the oral history of a lot of this stuff. I think Sean Howe has one out there but I dont know how far back it goes. Meaning I dont know if it covers pre-Marvel Marvel, back when Marvel was Timely Comics.
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Indeed, now I want to go back and see those complete issues of the comics from those panels. The entire stories would give some context.
The funny thing is the lack of accessibility to the writers back then kinda forced people to just let the actual story stand on it's own.
I actually think I have that first Cap issue somewhere but I'm not at home and even I were I couldnt get at my longboxes containing that issue anyway. I'm pretty sure it's in the mid to late 200's
The Kirby is one of the two stories in Tales of Suspense #67.
EDIT: Did some quick research here, that first one if Captain America #234 (1979)
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You know, after having seen more and read more about DC Rebirth, it sounds like they are taking some big steps in the right direction. It's almost enough to get me to start reading DC stuff. I've given up on Marvel, even more so with the whole Evil Cap publicity stunt they pulled. Eh, I'm probably done with Marvel and DC for a while. I'm almost completely done with comics anyways, except for Rat Queens.People need to take a deep breath. Yeah, it's stupid, but in a few months or so it'll all turn out to be brainwashing, or a dream, or a clone, or this isn't the real Earth-616 Cap, or some other silliness.
Plus, it's no where near as stupid as what DC is doing at the moment.
RAT QUEEEEEEEEEENS! TO BATTLE!
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Interesting point. I wonder if those writers gave interviews stating this was the real Cap. Not brainwashing, or a clone, or a shapeshifter, etc.It's not like this hasn't been done before...
Or even EARLIER by Jack Kirby HIMSELF HERE
It really, really bothers me that people are taking this so seriously.
This s&** has been done before.
And will be done again.
This is marvel we're talking about.
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A radio show I listen to, The Takeaway, just did a piece on the fan reaction. One poor fan kept talking as if he was severely unhappy living in a world where Steve Rogers was hydra double agent. Like, severly unhappy. I was all, "You poor kid, I'm sure it will all be fine in six months."
He sounded like an adult, but I'm calling him kid; what can I tell you, I'm one of those annoying people who would rather read a comic by a writer/artist I like than a comic about any specific character.
Eh, I'm probably done with Marvel and DC for a while. I'm almost completely done with comics anyways, except for Rat Queens.I'm still getting a few regular titles from the two big boys, but it's mostly just short runs or stuff that probably won't last long: Doctor Fate, Swamp Thing, Legends of Tomorrow, Justice League 3001, Omega Men (sadly almost done),Dark Knight III, Future Quest (just added), Moon Knight, Agents of Shield, Daredevil. I find a lot of titles like this aren't heavily affected by the other crap they pull on the main books.
I also get pretty much any Conan (or REH-based) series from Darkhorse, plus sometimes their Predator or Alien books.
And, of course, I get the Pathfinder comics.
Recently, however, I added the new Micronauts series from IDW, and I've got their new Rom: Space Knight series on my list.
ROM IS BACK?!
I'm excited!
Eh, I'm probably done with Marvel and DC for a while. I'm almost completely done with comics anyways, except for Rat Queens.I'm still getting a few regular titles from the two big boys, but it's mostly just short runs or stuff that probably won't last long: Doctor Fate, Swamp Thing, Legends of Tomorrow, Justice League 3001, Omega Men (sadly almost done),Dark Knight III, Future Quest (just added), Moon Knight, Agents of Shield, Daredevil. I find a lot of titles like this aren't heavily affected by the other crap they pull on the main books.
I also get pretty much any Conan (or REH-based) series from Darkhorse, plus sometimes their Predator or Alien books.
And, of course, I get the Pathfinder comics.
Recently, however, I added the new Micronauts series from IDW, and I've got their new Rom: Space Knight series on my list.
ROM IS BACK?!
I'm excited!
You and me both. I cant wait to see if they start doing toys again because I want me a Rom figure post haste...
Near as I can tell, both of those are based on the original toy IP, with no rights to any of the Marvel comics stuff.Recently, however, I added the new Micronauts series from IDW, and I've got their new Rom: Space Knight series on my list.ROM IS BACK?!
I'm excited!
I like the marvel stuff so we will see what they come up with. I'm nervous now...
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Interesting point. I wonder if those writers gave interviews stating this was the real Cap. Not brainwashing, or a clone, or a shapeshifter, etc.It's not like this hasn't been done before...
Or even EARLIER by Jack Kirby HIMSELF HERE
Reminds me of the Aunt May/Galactus story they did back in the 80s. Splashed across the cover was "Not a Hoax! Not a What If? Not an imaginary story!"
It was of course a dream. But the cover copy was technically correct.
I don't know exactly what's been said in interviews. I don't know what wiggle room they've left themselves. I do trust they're not really intending to have him have been a Hydra agent all along, whatever it looks like and whatever they want to make you think.
Not mind you, that they are but they'll retcon it away when it isn't popular, but the intent all along is for it to not be the real truth.Whether it'll work or not, I don't know. Whether it'll be a good story or not, I don't know. I do know they're not that mind-bogglingly stupid or out of touch. And that's despite some bone-head moves of late, IMO.
Part of my exasperation with the response to this is that I read the issue unaware of the twist at the end but aware that while reading what came before the twist that something wasn't quite right. There are a few scenes that are "flashbacks" to when Steve was a boy and an encounter with his mom and dad and a strange woman. Now most of the flashback is in muted colors almost sepia toned, except for certain items of clothing on this strange woman and other isolated things in the scene that are red and stand out.
I dont want to spoiler anymore but knowing what I know about what the Red Skull is capable of I think this points to a very high level of manipulation and brainwashing on his part. I'm willing to wait and see what happens and how it plays out.