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If Paizo asks, "Do you think we should nerf the super item your super build relies on?" I'd imagine that they might get a lot of negative responses. There's practically nothing in the game which "everybody" agrees is overpowered.
I did see a few items get buffed too like the belt which used to call Unseen Servant but now calls Spiritual Ally (though I suppose somebody who really liked the Unseen Servant ability for some reason might wish that they had just added Spiritual Ally rather than taking Unseen Servant away)
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I did see a few items get buffed too like the belt which used to call Unseen Servant but now calls Spiritual Ally (though I suppose somebody who really liked the Unseen Servant ability for some reason might wish that they had just added Spiritual Ally rather than taking Unseen Servant away)
It also provides the +1 insight bonus on saves all the time now, rather than just when the Unseen Servant/Spiritual Ally is active.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I understand this errata did very little to make bad items viable and did a lot to make good items into bad items.
Broken items are no longer broken.
difference is between changing Dodge now versus changing Dodge then.
Changing it now, especially to make it not as good is harder to do. The only change from 3.5 to PF is dodge is no longer a time sink of declaring who you are dodgy toward.
Why is the Luck bonus the issue and not the two traits that boosted AC?
they've altered dodge when they made it
Altered to simplify.
disparity between heavy armor characters and light armor characters is too much.What do you mean exactly? Heavy armour characters tend to be melee and so need the AC.
The difference is just too great. It's very hard to make a character that might get into combat and not use full plate/tower shield.
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Changing it now, especially to make it not as good is harder to do.
Changing it doesn't seem any harder than before. They change things all the time.
What might be harder is dealing with the customer reaction, but I doubt it. Plenty of people complained about the first printing of the CRB.
A) Did something change about Dodge recently? If so what was it?
B) I can understand why Chris Lambertz deleted somebody's post (not mine by the way!) for having a possibly offensive term in it. I can't understand why the possibly offensive term was repeated in Chris' post though.
"We... are the Knights who say... NI!"
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The difference is just too great. It's very hard to make a character that might get into combat and not use full plate/tower shield.
The problem is that your idea is open to gross abuse by casters who are exactly the type likely to have light armour.
Someone with light armour should not be able to get high AC without having to jump through an awful lot of hoops..... caster vs martial balance and all that!
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As an aside I am hugely in favour of errata. It shows Paizo are reflective in what they do, which is always a good thing and hopefully that they listen to feedback from their customers, which as a business if you dont do will eventually end up with you going down the toilet!
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The difference is just too great. It's very hard to make a character that might get into combat and not use full plate/tower shield.
The problem is that your idea is open to gross abuse by casters who are exactly the type likely to have light armour.
Someone with light armour should not be able to get high AC without having to jump through an awful lot of hoops..... caster vs martial balance and all that!
I've been lead to believe that full casters generally don't rely on AC. Having far superior defensive spells as they do. Mirror image and Blur are frequently mentioned.
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You want missed errata opportunities? Alright, let me open up the core rulebook. Let's see...mounted rules need shaping up, acrobatics needs clarification on avoiding AoOs and charges, casting defensively needs a nerf, several spells need nerfing...do I need to go on or can I put that mess of a book down?
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I've been lead to believe that full casters generally don't rely on AC. Having far superior defensive spells as they do. Mirror image and Blur are frequently mentioned.
Surely x10 the reason to hinder full casters getting high AC then!?
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Combat casting does not need a nerf!!!
What needs a change is the combat maneuver system so players have a chance of this crap working against monsters and monster have a chance of failure especially grapple checks.
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His AC at level 7 was:
10 base
12 +2 full plate (5650 gp) with Defender of the Society
6 +2 darkwood tower shield (4630)
1 +1 ring (2000)
2 Jingasa with Fate's Favored (5000)
1 amulet of natural (2000)
1 dusty rose in wayfinder (5250 +2 CMB)
1 DEX 13
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AC 34 spending 22,050 (Master of Trade Qadira Faction)
I count 24,530gp, i.e. more than the level 7 WBL (if you add at least 3030 for the adamantine temple sword, plus apparently 12k for Cap of the Free Thinker, you end up at 39,560gp, which is way past even the lvl8 WBL). If the faction discount is the problem, than that should be changed. If the two traits that are way stronger than half feats are the problem, then they should be changed (although I really like Fate's Favored because it helps break the Human Master Race™ being better at everything than anyone else-thing; and Defender of the Society as fighter-only is actually working balance because lack of Rage Powers/Spells/etc should have a benefit, too).
But what I really see is a character spending his entire money and all his traits on his AC and I really fail to see why he should not be allowed to be nearly unhittable. If PFS has a problem with high AC characters with a +5 Will save at 7th level, the problem lies in the PFS modules alone.
Regarding the original topic: The problem is not doing power level erratas, the problem is completly repeating the mistakes made by many other game companies before and overkilling a huge amount of nerfs. If the luck bonus is the problem, change the luck bonus. If the interaction with Fate's Favored is the problem, change it to a circumstance bonus. If the crit negation is the problem, either change that or adjust the price. But do not stack multiple nerfs. Yes, Bracer's of Falcon's Aim are cleary underpriced in comparison to Lesser Bracers of Archery - so why not simply adjust the price instead of making the item so ridiculously bad that no player ever is going to use them, again?
What Paizo is doing is they see an instrument out of tune - and instead of tuning it, they smash it and burn the pieces. If it's completly broken, it's not out of tune, right?
What is this "fate's favored" everyone keeps talking about?
Is it a luck bonus to one thing like AC, saves, etc. or to all luck bonuses?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I count 24,530gp
(if you add at least 3030 for the adamantine temple sword, plus apparently 12k for Cap of the Free Thinker, you end up at 39,560gpIf PFS has a problem with high AC characters with a +5 Will save at 7th level
repeating the mistakes made by many other game companies before and over-killing a huge amount of nerfs.
But do not stack multiple nerfs.
why not simply adjust the price
PFS exceeds the WBL charts low end and falls under it high end. Plus you have Day Jobs, Expedition Manager boon (free items up to 3400 gp - Adamantine Temple Sword!), and 2 pp gets you 750 gp or less items.
Most characters have a lot of wealth - the average is 38,324.4 by level 7:
Level 2 - 1,733.433 gp
Level 3 - 4,600.02 gp
Level 4 - 4,093.98 gp
Level 5 - 6,751.5 gp
Level 6 - 7,993.32 gp
Level 7 - 11,630.34 gp
Archeologist says HAI GUISE!So does the scarred half orc :-)
"Da."
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A point on AC.
It looks like to me that without traits or magic the highest AC possible from a combination of special material (mithral, darkleaf cloth, etc...) Dex and armor, assuming a normal max dexterity mod of +13 (20 from pb, +5 levels, +5 Inherent, +6 Belt) is as follows:
Haramaki/Silken ceremonial: +14
Light: +10
Medium: +11
Heavy: +12
Now with the trait Defender of the Society medium and heavy go up by one, but still your best AC from armor comes from silken ceremonial/haramaki.
It is true that this is only useful for dex builds, however I just wanted to point out that it is perfectly viable to have a 7th level light armored character with great AC.
Compare a standard dex build of 20 starting +1 level +2 belt at 7th. You end up with a +6 which combined with a Mithral chain shirt yields a +10.
Now at the same level you could have Full Plate and the defender trait which would yield a +11. Mithral full plate at this level is prohibitively expensive. One AC does not really make a builds AC garbage. Also light armor does not slow so you need to spend less character resources on speeding back up. Basically the defender trait lets heavy armor builds be basically one AC ahead until you can afford mithral heavy armor, and then they are three ahead. I would assume mithral heavy armor is usually in play between 10-12, however that is just my experience.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Covent, I like your analysis. I just think it must be missing something, because I've played a Heavy Armor fighter to 12 and I'm on my third light or no armor leveling to 12.
I simply can't get close to the heavy armor guy's AC. I'm at 27 right now at level 5, and the Heavy at level 5 had 28 without Jingasa for less gp.
It will be very expensive, at this point, to raise mine beyond 28 and the heavy can raise his full plate and tower shield by 1 point each for 6000 gp total.
At that point I've be perpetually 3 points behind them, and I won't be able to exceed that without inherent bonuses. Something I'll never be able to afford before the character is retired.
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PFS exceeds the WBL charts low end and falls under it high end. Plus you have Day Jobs, Expedition Manager boon (free items up to 3400 gp - Adamantine Temple Sword!), and 2 pp gets you 750 gp or less items.
Most characters have a lot of wealth - the average is 38,324.4 by level 7:
Thanks for the info!
Well, if PFS hands out over 60% more loot than WBL, (which is "the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level"), of course AC levels can get crazy high. I don't see how the Jingasa is supposed to be the problematic part here, to be honest.|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Correct.I don't see how the Jingasa is supposed to be the problematic part here, to be honest.You don't see how everyone getting +2 AC on top of their max otherwise isn't a problem?
I have played a character where every scenario (even the ones he played high tier) that ever combat the GM needed a 20 to hit me.
In a large part to the 2 from the Jingasa, as I was often at that edge. So without the jingasa, the chance to hit me often tripled.
...
I think I'll review the scenarios and figure out what the monsters needed to hit me at each level.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I don't find this to be much of a difference.
I did. So I created some math/evidence for you.
I played my full plate/tower shield sundering/grappler master to level 11. After level 6 I rarely if ever got hit in melee while playing up or down.
I searched all the scenarios looking for the maximum to hit in each, and built a chart. Remember, this is maximum and not average. It also didn't matter whether I played up or down, I picked the max in the scenario.
Level - Percent to hit with Jingasa
1 - 55%
2 - 40%
3 - 65%
4 - 40%
5 - 5% (via needing a 21 to hit)
6 - 30%
7 - 15% (including playing BKI and BKII)
Level - Percent to hit without Jingasa ~ now post errata if new PC
1 - 65%
2 - 50%
3 - 85%
4 - 50%
5 - 10%
6 - 40%
7 - 25% (including playing BKI and BKII)
Removing the Jingasa makes you effectively 66% more likely to be hit at 7th level hard modules (Bonekeep I and II and 4-26.) - 25/15 = 1.66
I don't have access to all my level 8+ scenarios as I've not ran all of them. But from my experience on the non-bonekeep ones, I couldn't be hit. I also only managed +2 more AC points from upgrading armor and shield before level 11.
Level - Maximum to hit - needs to hit - Total - Added
1 - 10 - 10 - 20 - Lamellar Steel Armor (6), Heavy Wooden Shield (2), Dex 13(1), Defender of the society(1)
2 - 10 - 13 - 23 - Upgrade to +1 Darkwood Tower Shield (+3) via 4 pp
3 - 15 - 8 - 23 -
4 - 12 - 13 - 25 - Jingasa w/Fate's Favored (2)
5 - 9 - 21 - 30 - Upgrade to +2 Plate (+5) via 6 PP and 3000 gp
6 - 20 - 15 - 35 - Dusty rose (1), +2 ring (2), +2 Amulet of Nac (2)
7 - 21 - 18 - 39 - Upgrade to +4 tower shield (+3), upgrade to +3 full plate (+1), playing bonekeep I/II
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{501,323,321}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{415,319,401}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{405,306,308}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{502,506,055}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{314,206,406}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0{417,314,416}E.pdf | sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
pdfgrep '[mM]elee|[rR]anged' PZOPSS0400-3E-Bonekeep-I.pdf PZOPSS04EX2E-Bonekeep-II.pdf PZOPSS0426E.pdf| sed -e 's/.*[mM]elee /A /' -e 's/.*[rR]anged /A /' | sort | grep '\+' | sed -e 's/A \+/A /' | sed -e 's/[^+]*+\([0-9]*\) .*/\1/' | sort -n | tail -1
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Well for me removing the Jingasa makes my characters effectively 11% more likely to be hit. 50/45 = 1.11
Guess you just need to get good so a nerf like this doesn't effect character so much. You're 66% more likely to be hit and I'm only 11% more likely, my character's are so boss that they are hardly effected by such a change while yours are pretty drastically effected. My Ac isn't ruined while yours apparently is.
*This post is just for funnys. Data is an rough guesstimate.
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I played my full plate/tower shield sundering/grappler master to level 11. After level 6 I rarely if ever got hit in melee while playing up or down.
And? You built a character to be good at not getting hit, and removing the jingasa made it more likely to get hit. What is the problem?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I played my full plate/tower shield sundering/grappler master to level 11. After level 6 I rarely if ever got hit in melee while playing up or down.And? You built a character to be good at not getting hit, and removing the jingasa made it more likely to get hit. What is the problem?
I'm not sure what you are asking.
How about this, I'm in favor of the Jingasa being changed to deflection, insight, shield, or normal AC bonus. I didn't care about the 1/day crit ability.
I'm just trying to show that the game is "healthier" with it no longer a luck bonus.
If your question is "why am I unhappy?" I'm not.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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do they have to nerf circlet of persuasion if I build a character that invest most of his resources into never miss a diplomacy check?
Probably not because:
- Circlet of Persuasion existed in 3.5.
- Diplomacy isn't particularly powerful and often is used in scenarios with the Circlet in mind.
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I played my full plate/tower shield sundering/grappler master to level 11. After level 6 I rarely if ever got hit in melee while playing up or down.And? You built a character to be good at not getting hit, and removing the jingasa made it more likely to get hit. What is the problem?I'm not sure what you are asking.
How about this, I'm in favor of the Jingasa being changed to deflection, insight, shield, or normal AC bonus. I didn't care about the 1/day crit ability.
I'm just trying to show that the game is "healthier" with it no longer a luck bonus.
If your question is "why am I unhappy?" I'm not.
I believe from his previous posts, he's advocating that there wasn't a problem with the jingasa, even providing 2AC. That your guy being slightly easier to hit isn't evidence that anything was broken and in need of fixing.
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Really this just means PFS needs caps by level for everything, because in a home game high AC is no problem since you can beef up your monsters to meet that AC pretty easily.
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That your guy being slightly easier to hit isn't evidence that anything was broken and in need of fixing.Ok, if he doesn't think that being 66% more likely to be hit now that Jingasa is gone isn't highlighting the problem then nothing will.
I can't speak for him but I know I don't think that highlights or supports anything.
It's a statistic as I showed. Losing the jingasa only increased my chances of being hit by 11%. Or like the monk where it says 1 option increased damage 60%, from 5dpr to 8dpr. A 3dpr increase is nothing to really get excited or worried about. But say it through a statistic of 60% increase, and now it seem that this must be nerfed, it's too good.
The enemy had a 15% chance and now has a 25% that is a flat addition of 10%. The percent increase number isn't something that actually matters. A monster is still more likely to miss you than hit you. And you're still 40% more likely to be missed than the other frontliners. Now if you're trying to argue and convince me that using a trait and an item to get hit 10% less was super broken you're going to need to provide something other than what you are. Nothing in the game stops working, combats don't fall apart, the GM isn't left confused as to how to rule something that just happened.