Does a circlet of persuasion work on skill checks?

[Fayteri]

The wording that is used almost everywhere is "Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks", however the circlet just says "Charisma-based checks". Is this difference in wording deliberate?

Secondary question; is it meant to work on concentration checks for charisma-based casters?

[James Risner]

SKR used "anything using a D20 where charisma is added"

[Jeraa]

Quote:

Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.

If you roll a d20 and add your Charisma modifier, it is a Charisma-based check.

[Jeff Merola]

To answer your secondary question, yes.

[ShieldLawrence]

Is there a difference between a check that adds your CHA modifier and a check that is CHA-based?

[James Risner]

I used to think so until I read the SKR responses to an initiative check using CHA as a check that the circlet enhances.

[andreww]

ShieldLawrence wrote:

Is there a difference between a check that adds your CHA modifier and a check that is CHA-based?

You want to read the ability replacement FAQ

In general a stat check will be a d20 roll which adds a relevant stat. So, Initiative is a dexterity check. Skill checks are checks of their normal stat type. A will save is a wisdom check.

If you get to add another stat to that check it does not become a check of that type. For example, just because a Paladin adds their charisma mod to their saves that does not make each save a charisma check.

However, if you are replacing the stat then it becomes a check of the new type. For example, Noble Scion of War makes your initiative based on charisma instead of dex. The sidestep secret lore oracle revelation allows you to use charisma instead of dex for reflex saves. These turn your initiative and reflex saves into charisma checks instead of dex checks allowing things like the circlet of command to affect them.

[Avoron]

andreww wrote:

A will save is a wisdom check... The sidestep secret lore oracle revelation allows you to use charisma instead of dex for reflex saves. These turn your initiative and reflex saves into charisma checks instead of dex checks allowing things like the circlet of command to affect them.

This is on the right track, but there's a crucial distinction you're leaving out. A will save is not a wisdom check, it is a wisdom-based check. Likewise, Sidestep Secret turns reflex saves into charisma-based checks, but not charisma checks. Actual ability checks, unless modified by a special ability that adds to them, add nothing but your ability score.

Ability Scores wrote:

a character rarely rolls an ability check (using just an ability score)

[Umbral Reaver]

It is truly unknowable.

[Chess Pwn]

andreww and Avoron together say what I was going to say.

[dragonhunterq]

ShieldLawrence wrote:

Is there a difference between a check that adds your CHA modifier and a check that is CHA-based?

There can be a difference, simply adding your charisma does't necessarily make it charisma based.

Lets take a strength check as an example. If you gain an ability that lets you add your charisma to your strength check it remains a strength based check. If you have an ability that lets you use charisma instead of strength it becomes charisma based.

[Captain Kiani the Blue]

Sorry for the necroposting, but I have another question:

If I have a Circlet of Persuasion and I cast Hydraulic Push, do I get +3 on the combat maneuver? And what about the Lifewater power of the Watersinger Bard?

Hydraulic Push:

You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks one creature or square. You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush against any one creature or object. Your CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Hydraulic push extinguishes any normal fires on a creature, object, or in a single 5-foot square which it is targeted against. Magical fires are unaffected.

Lifewater:

Lifewater (Su): At 5th level, the watersinger can spend 1 round of bardic performance as a standard action to manipulate the water, blood, and other fluids within a creature's body, causing the target to become sickened for 1d4 rounds. Alternatively, he may use this ability to attempt a reposition combat maneuver, using his base attack bonus and his Charisma modifier as his CMB. This ability has a range of 30 feet, only works on creatures whose bodies contain fluid, and does not affect creatures that are immune to critical hits.

[James Risner]

A charisma check is a d20 you add your charisma and nothing else.

A CMB check adds your BAB, so it isn't a charisma check.

[Raynulf]

Captain Kiani the Blue wrote:

Sorry for the necroposting, but I have another question:

If I have a Circlet of Persuasion and I cast Hydraulic Push, do I get +3 on the combat maneuver? And what about the Lifewater power of the Watersinger Bard?

By the previous posts and the FAQ, I would assume the answer is "Yes".

The circlet of persuasion gives a +3 Competence bonus to all Charisma-based checks. Per the FAQ this includes checks where other things are added as long as they aren't ability score modifiers (e.g. skill checks).

Concentration is (for Cha-based casters) derived from caster level and Charisma, and thus is a Charisma-based check.

Spells that perform combat maneuvers typically allow you to use your caster level + Cha (for a Cha-based caster), much like a concentration check. This too, is a Charisma-based check.

The Lifewater power of the Watersinger bard substitutes Charisma for a physical stat, making the CMB a Charisma-based check, thus, the circlet applies.

Similarly, if you were somehow able to substitute the normal attribute for Charisma for attack, saving throws, Initiative or any other d20 roll, the circlet would apply.

Note: It might be more balanced if it was just Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks, but that isn't what the item does.

[Ciaran Barnes]

This discussion has been going on since before Pathfinder.

[Alderic]

"Similarly, if you were somehow able to substitute the normal attribute for Charisma for attack, saving throws, Initiative or any other d20 roll, the circlet would apply."

What about Desna Divine Fighting Technique ?
Doesn't that make attack rolls with Starknives charisma based ?

[Chess Pwn]

Alderic wrote:

"Similarly, if you were somehow able to substitute the normal attribute for Charisma for attack, saving throws, Initiative or any other d20 roll, the circlet would apply."

What about Desna Divine Fighting Technique ?
Doesn't that make attack rolls with Starknives charisma based ?

Yes it does and thus would be boosted by the circlet.

[Captain Kiani the Blue]

I also think that the answer is "Yes", but if the Circlet really works this way, then it is one of the most OP items I've ever seen.

I was looking for ways to equip my character in a S&S campaign, but now I think I'll go with a Headband of Alluring Charisma instead. The Circlet seems too broken for me.

[Ferious Thune]

The Circlet is actually in the head slot, not the headband slot. So you can get both, and be even more broken!

[Captain Kiani the Blue]

I don't want a broken head! It surely hurts!

[Lemartes]

Wow Desna's Divine Fighting Technique is insane.

Perhaps a bit way too good.

[Daw]

Anything +3 is powerful enough. Everything cited has a high enough cost to apply them to specific rolls.

[David knott 242]

The combination with Desna's Fighting Technique is the first overpowered combination involving the Circlet of Persuasion that I am aware of.

[Bill Dunn]

Captain Kiani the Blue wrote:

I also think that the answer is "Yes", but if the Circlet really works this way, then it is one of the most OP items I've ever seen.

I think this has less to do with the item being OP and more to do with swapping stats being a problem.

[LuniasM]

David knott 242 wrote:

The combination with Desna's Fighting Technique is the first overpowered combination involving the Circlet of Persuasion that I am aware of.

Noble Scion of War makes Initiative a Charisma-based check. 4500 go for +3 to initiative is pretty obscene. Combine with the Imperious bloodline for Sorcerer to get a +4 instead - congratz, you just bought the equivalent of 4 or 5 feats for about 4.5k (Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Persuasive, and a +4 to Bluff, Handle Animal, and UMD).

It should probably only increase skill checks. Even then you're only paying 4.5k for a +3 bonus to five skills - still one of the best items for its cost.

[Alderic]

Lore Oracles can make good use of charisma checks between knowledge checks and reflex saves (if they're considered a charisma based check of course)

Now you just need to make an Oracle that worships Desna, most likely a human from varisia, and you're set.
Too bad you can't take TWF with the Dex score generally associated with Oracles with Sidestep Secret.

[David knott 242]

For initiative checks, you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. However, AC for high CR monster continues to scale so as to make increases to attack bonuses always relevant.

[andreww]

Alderic wrote:

Lore Oracles can make good use of charisma checks between knowledge checks and reflex saves (if they're considered a charisma based check of course)

Now you just need to make an Oracle that worships Desna, most likely a human from varisia, and you're set.
Too bad you can't take TWF with the Dex score generally associated with Oracles with Sidestep Secret.

Be a spirit guide, take the ancestor spirit, get it to all Int based skills not just knowledges.

Spirit guide gives you one shaman hex, ancestors get wis to all int skills as a hex, spirit guide switches all references to wisdom to charisma.

If you then go Lunar or Nature you still get Cha to AC as well without having to go Lore which has some rather subpar spells.

Something else to bear in mind for sorcerers, bards, oracles, summoners and other Cha based casters. Concentration is a Cha based check so you can have the circlet adding to cha skills, initiative and concentration with the investment of one feat (which was a good one for you in the first place).

[tomas rosenberg]

Has this been clarified with an FAQ for all of pathfinder or a campaign clarification for PFS?

Noble Scion (War): Does the circlet provide +3 to initiative?
Mesmerist Towering Ego: Does the circlet provide +3 to will saves?

Has it been ruled that the intent of item to provide only +3 to charisma based skill checks?

I play in PFS and will be purchasing this item anyway but I would like to know if I should add it to initiative and Will save

[MichaelCullen]

None Scion: Per the FAQ, the circlet provides its bonus to initiative if you have the noble scion of war feat. This is because you are substituting dex for charisma. Because you are substituting, it becomes a charisma based check. The circlet gives its bonus on charisma based checks.

Towering Ego: Unlike Noble scion above you are not substituting for your charisma bonus. You are simply adding your charisma bonus. In this case, the ability the check is based off of does not change. It is still a wisdom based check and is not aided by the circlet.

It is not the intent of the item to only add to skill checks.

Hope that helps.

[tomas rosenberg]

MichaelCullen wrote:

None Scion: Per the FAQ, the circlet provides its bonus to initiative if you have the noble scion of war feat. This is because you are substituting dex for charisma. Because you are substituting, it becomes a charisma based check. The circlet gives its bonus on charisma based checks.

Towering Ego: Unlike Noble scion above you are not substituting for your charisma bonus. You are simply adding your charisma bonus. In this case, the ability the check is based off of does not change. It is still a wisdom based check and is not aided by the circlet.

It is not the intent of the item to only add to skill checks.

Hope that helps.

Yes, it does. Us old people sometimes take multiple slightly different explanations to understand