Gestalt characters?

[Declindgrunt]

So my friends are starting a gestalt campaign soonish and I need help with ideas

So it's 25 point buy
All classes open
All races open

No 3pp

[Declindgrunt]

The current party members are a barbarian/paladin (this is gonna be in a home brew world so this flys here)

And a wizard/bard

We also will be using these feat changes
http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Primalist Arcane Bloodrager//Paladin VMC Cavalier Order of the stars

Human first 2 Feats Fey Foundling and Raging Vitality

Enjoy Raging + Smiting + and Challenging

Enjoy Full plate + Displacement/Haste on the fly mixed with Swift action LoH

Enjoy Come and Get me at level 12 and Pick up a few rage powers that are 1 per rage and just rage cycle. LoH Mercy for Fatigue and laugh as you pound everything into the ground.

Edit: Your Friend can not be a Paladin and Barb as the Alignment restrictions for both classes do not allow it. Show him this Option above.

Edit Edit: You can swap Arcane for Aberrant and Take Tumor Familiar Feat @ level 5 and Grab up Protector Archetype on it....Then you basically have someone to shove off damage too so your LoH keeps you pretty filled up. Pick the right Familiar you can shore up your weakest save or increase your Initiative. Sure you don't get Displacement but the Tumor Familiar is freaking strong and boarder-line broken when used like this.

[John Woodford]

http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/, linkified.

If you need a full divine character, suggest going pally|oracle. If you're going to be fighting lots of undead, maybe go life oracle; otherwise, go with battle, metal, ancestors, maybe fire for mobility.

[PK the Dragon]

Summoner/Druid

take 10 minute turns all day every day :)

[Syrus Terrigan]

The sky is the limit, man. Almost too many options to really hash through . . . .

How freely can you multiclass? VMC rules allowed?

Are you looking for diversity? DPR? Total domination of the forces of the cosmos?

My "Top Ten" straight-class gestalt pairings --
1) paladin/sorcerer -- smiting scorching rays
2) swashbuckler/unch rogue -- the most popular murderhobo
3) invulnerable rager/fighter -- soak all the damage, deal all the damage
4) warpriest/rogue -- Rovagug hates you, so stab that guy!
5) paladin/oracle -- yeah, I actually *do* enjoy healbots
6) slayer/wizard -- know everything; everything dies
7) . . . xx/xx
8) . . . xx/xx
9) . . . xx/xx
10) . . . xx/xx

I got tired of typing.

What kind of game is it? Intrigue? Dungeons and dungeons? Battlefront?

. . . Need more information!

[Deadmanwalking]

With a Paladin already in the party, I would not go that route.

I'd probably suggest someone with healing (specifically condition removal), though, since you lack that.

A Druid/Monk, Shaman/Monk or (better for healing) Cleric/Monk is definitely one possibility. That'd give you some solid healing and melee power (or ranged power with Zen Archer).

Another possibility, if wanting to avoid Divine characters, is a Witch/Investigator or Witch/Unchained Rogue (Snoop or Phantom Thief) (for skills) or Witch/Magus (for physical combat), grabbing the Healing patron and maybe one of the more healing focused Archetypes on Witch.

[Cass_Ponderovian]

I like a combo of zen archer and inquisitor. You get all of the damage bonuses from inquisitor added to all the extra attacks defense from the monk. Plus wisdom does almost everything for you.

[Olaf the Holy]

Cleric//monk? Maybe with Zen archer, if you're into that sort of thing.

[MeanMutton]

Paladin / Sorcerer? Self buff and bash.

[Avoron]

mounted gnome mysterious stranger gunslinger//dual-cursed nature oracle

[RainyDayNinja]

It looks like you can use divine casting/healing, ranged DPR, and trapfinding. Put that all together, and I'd recommend a Slayer/Cleric:

Full divine spellcasting
Full BAB
All good saves
Trapfinding
Tons of skill points

[Declindgrunt]

Yes you can variant multi class

[DeviousDevious]

Unchained Monk // Unchained Rogue.
No armor needed, No Strength needed. Stick with DEX/WIS/CON.

[PK the Dragon]

So free feats, 25 point buy, variant multiclassing, and Gestalt rules?

Be very, very afraid of your GM, lol.

[Declindgrunt]

The feats we use in all our games now, 25 point buy is our standard

Gestalt is the only rule that's different

[Saldiven]

Cass_Ponderovian wrote:

I like a combo of zen archer and inquisitor. You get all of the damage bonuses from inquisitor added to all the extra attacks defense from the monk. Plus wisdom does almost everything for you.

Zen Archer Monk//Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor.

All the wonderful damage output of the normal Zen Archer coupled with Studied Target bonuses, Bane on the arrows, and buffs from Divine Favor/Power and other spells.

[Nocte ex Mortis]

There's always the classics Monk/Paladin. Flurry of Smites, absolute ungodly saves, Spell Resistance, Evasion, Mercies, spellcasting, Divine Bond....

[My Self]

What about Druid//Paladin? With the Feyspeaker Druid and Gray Paladin, you get lots of skills, full casting in armor, full BAB, wildshape, mostly good saves (sans Reflex), and two alignment choices. Charisma casting, too. Granted, you give up the Paladin's best save booster and some smiting, but you get some Sorcerer/Wizard spells. And you get to be either NG or LN.

Alternatively, Druid//Antipaladin. Insinuator Antipaladin gets all the goodies that the Gray Paladin doesn't, but you'll need to maintain a NE alignment. If you manage to get to 20th, you can get infinite smites while wildshaping via Planar Wild Shape.

Also, Oradin.

Inquisitor//UMonk is also an option. You could get some pretty awesome to-hit bonuses going on your half-dozen hits. Sanctified Slayer or base Inquisitor, probably.

Kensai Magus//Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is an option. Or perhaps Investigator//Daring Champion Cavalier. 2.5x level to damage is a possibility.

[SmiloDan]

Paladin//Ninja
Cleric//Slayer
Magus//Wizard
Paladin//Swashbuckler
Druid//Rogue
Fighter//Monk (have all of the feats!)
Gunslinger//Shaman
Paladin//Summoner mounted on eidolon

[Melkiador]

I like my gestalts to give full BAB, full casting, all max saves and good skills. A wizard/slayer or wizard/ranger covers that fairly well. You could combine the natural weapons ranger combat style with polymorph spells to be a really effective beast or dragon.

[nate lange]

It's hard to give specific advice to such a vague question... What kind of character do you want to play?

some general advice for gestalt:
• be all around good- its easy to have at least medium BAB and 2 good saves. heck, its easy to have full BAB and all good saves. don't show up with bad BAB or only 1 good save; you'll regret it.
• think about stat synergy- even with 25 points you can't have all great stats, try to pick your classes so you can focus on 2-3 stats (eg. pair Wis based casters with unchained monk, or Cha based casters with pally or swashbuckler).
• consider your action economy- some classes only move and use standard actions, others have useful tricks that cost a move action, some have a variety of swift actions; try to combine your classes so that you have a couple of options for each type of action but not too many for any one type.

Hope that's helpful. If you post something more specific (like 'how could I build a divine caster that's good at ranged combat' or 'how do I build a super tough caster') then you'll probably get some clearer feedback.

[SmiloDan]

Nate Lange made lots and lots of excellent points. To the point that it was hard to come up with something else to add.

Maybe look for class features with interesting synergies. Like rage + mutagen + enlarge person + smite + challenge + judgment + sneak attack.

[My Self]

SmiloDan wrote:

Nate Lange made lots and lots of excellent points. To the point that it was hard to come up with something else to add.

Maybe look for class features with interesting synergies. Like rage + mutagen + enlarge person + smite + challenge + judgment + sneak attack.

Maybe some sort of Fighter//Investigator for absurd to-hit bonuses, good skills, good saves, and the option to get ridiculous skills? Advanced Weapon Training lets you treat BAB as skill ranks for up to 4 skills/level. Combined with Investigator's 6+INT skills/level and INT focus, you could be rocking north of 12+INT skills/level if you're a Human with the FCB in skills. Not that you'd need that many skills, but still. Also, Mutagen + Studied Combat + Weapon Training is a thing. Along with 6 levels of Alchemy buffs, including Enlarge Person (or Psychic buffs, if you're into that). You can get Ranged Study to do your doom damage with a bow or a gun, if that so pleases you. Stacking DEX (via Trench Fighter), Studied Combat, Mutagen, and Weapon Training on a gun will get you some sort of ridiculous never-missing hand cannon. Granted, it's not 100% as versatile as a full BAB class gestated with a full caster, but you'd get some pretty sweet damage.

Alternatively, a Medium//Slayer could be fun. All the adaptability of a Medium with the damage of a Slayer. Champion Spirit lets you squeeze in an extra attack on full attacks, or take a move and full attack, at higher levels. Archmage Spirit will net you access to Greater Invisibility on full attacks later on. Guardian Spirit lets you pretend to be an Invulnerable Rager, but with heavy armor. Hierophant Spirit lets you get Cleric buffs to use with your full BAB chassis.

[Declindgrunt]

I'm currently considering a fighter(Pole arm archtype) / bard arcane deulist with variant multi bard so his inspire courage will keep scaling after he stops going bard and starts going dragon disciple also uses flag bearer for all the buffs

Alchemists/brawler focus on that mutagen (master chemist maybe?)

Uc monk/ empyreal/draconic crossblooded sorcerer (wisdom as caster stat) who also drops sorcerer and goes dragon disciple later on

[avr]

One bard in the party doing their buffs is probably enough in a group of three and you said there'd be a wizard // bard. Two or more wouldn't stack after all. & I'd recommend making sure you have all good saves (especially fort and will) in gestalt, which an alchemist // brawler doesn't get.

Check with your GM whether the last idea will fly as technically crossblooded and wildblooded (empyreal) don't stack according to the FAQ. If allowed it does sound like a fine idea though.

[Declindgrunt]

He's fine with it we are fairly lose with the rules as long as it's not mocking bird of doom lvls of broken

[nate lange]

Fighter/Bard is a good combo. Fighter/Investigator is even better. As was mentioned, multiple bardic buffs won't stack so if you want to go arcane duelist see if you can sell the wizard/bard on an archetype that trades inspire courage (court bard would be good, or archivist which might be a better thematic fit).

[Atarlost]

You're light on divine casters. I don't favor oracles because they have to really strain to get decent spell access. If you're not a cleric you'll probably have to be Samsaran. Fortunately they have +wis. Unfortunately they have -con, which you'll need to compensate for.

Human Druid//Shaman (Use the shaman human FCB to snag divine favor at level 6 when it starts to be worthwhile, but shaman and druid between them have all the condition removers.)

Cleric//Unmonk (Use more wisdom than a battle cleric normally would because it's your armor.)

Cleric//Ranger or Cleric//Slayer (Archery is probably your best choice of combat style because archery is archery. Weapon and shield is also workable. TWF is borderline. The other styles are either just bad or devalued by your changes to combat maneuver feats.)

Human or Half-Orc Shaman//Unmonk (Make the paladin take the disease mercy and you can cover the remaining condition removal if you take or wander into the life spirit. You'll again want to use the human shaman FCB for divine favor.)

Samsaran Druid//Unmonk (You'll need to pick up some condition removers with Mystic Past Life. Also grab Divine Favor if you have space. Plan to wildshape as elementals once you have the option.)

Samsaran Druid//Wizard (Same deal with Mystic Past Life for condition removers. If your GM will let you split the MPL spells get Ill Omen off the witch list. You should probably go int>wis because you'll reserve some of your druid slots for emergency condition removal and have slightly fewer to start with, but you can probably manage to start with an 18 and a 20. I think druid has better dazing spell carriers but you may be able to cast spells cross list with Greater Spell Specialization or Preferred Spell. You can use wildshape to pretend to be the other wizard's familiar.)

Samsaran Druid//Witch (You could use the healing patron to restoration and not be samsaran, but the samsaran stat array is pretty good and you can take a different patron and possibly snag a bunch of wizard spells. Like the previous, you want to do something like turn into a wren and sit on the wizard's shoulder so you can do your magic without providing an additional target for the paladin to defend.)

Samsaran Druid//Investigator (MPL again for condition removers. Studied Combat will really stack up on natural attacks.)

Grippli Nature Domain Cleric//Sohei Monk (Feather is probably the best nature subdomain. Grippli gets you a wisdom bonus with small size so you can ride a medium mount. The animal domain gets you the mount. Sohei lets you take Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat, which means you can bypass prerequisites and get it at level 1. This lets you move and full attack. Monastic Mount is designed to give a bog standard horse acceptable survivability. Applied to an actual animal companion it's probably good enough for a high power game.)

[Cuup]

Summoner//Kineticist - All the Bookkeeping!

I played a Barbarian//Alchemist once to very good success.

[Kryzbyn]

Swashbuckler//Investigator is what I'm playing in Kingmaker atm.

Skill monkey/buffer/evade tank!

[graystone]

Warpriest [Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain]/Vigilante [Warlock]

Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training with weapons they've taken Weapon Focus for. You can take Weapon Focus with a warlocks Mystic Bolts so they can get weapon training with the bolts!

So med BAB, 6th level wizard and cleric spells, 4+ skills, all good saves, weapon trained mystic bolts, Fervor casting, war blessing, bonus feats, ect...

Any race that counts as human can get the FCB of 1/6th of a combat feat!

[Goddity]

My favourite has always been bloodrager/synth summoner. High constitution and charisma. You can enlarge yourself, heal your living armour, and get multiple attacks a round. If you take elemental as your bloodline, with the number of attacks you have, you could be looking at +3d6 a round for damage at first level. Your first level HP is going to be around 26ish. Your AC suffers a little, but that shouldn't matter.

[My Self]

Mad Magic makes caster Bloodragers happy. Arcane Strike (maybe with Blooded Arcane Strike) lets you stack a decent amount of flat damage to attacks.

Extra fun thing is that you can give yourself negative physical stats (except CON) and still be amazing.

[My Self]

graystone wrote:

Warpriest [Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain]/Vigilante [Warlock]

Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training with weapons they've taken Weapon Focus for. You can take Weapon Focus with a warlocks Mystic Bolts so they can get weapon training with the bolts!

So med BAB, 6th level wizard and cleric spells, 4+ skills, all good saves, weapon trained mystic bolts, Fervor casting, war blessing, bonus feats, ect...

Any race that counts as human can get the FCB of 1/6th of a combat feat!

Advanced Weapon Training might apply? So you could end up with multiple dice of damage. Combined with Weapon Focus, Arcane Striker, and such, you could get some actually good damage going.

Although maybe an Investigator would have better damage?

[412294]

Paladin/sorcerer, take dragon disciple, 1st, 5th and 9th levels replace a paladin level, and the rest replacing sorcerer levels, for +4str, +2con, +2int, +3 natural armour, blindsense, a bite attack, form of the dragon as a spell like ability 2/day, an extra use of your breath weapon and faster fly speed from wings and all you give up is 3 levels of paladin. You'd have all the strengths of a full 20 levels of sorcerer, exceptional melee potential with the stat boosts and paladin smite, strong saves, reasonable defenses with the natural armour and defensive spells, paladin immunities to fear and disease, swift action healing/status curing from lay on hands+mercies. Play a human (human FCB for sorcerers is amazing), +2 charisma at creation, take the noble scion of war for cha to initiative, maybe even trade out a paladin level for a level of oracle with the nature mystery to take nature whispers for cha to AC, then just pump Charisma followed by strength and constitution and be amazing at everything. If you go oracle the legalistic curse might be nice, you're already expected to stick to your word as a paladin so there's no real downside or just take tongues, if your party all speak the language of choice it has no downside.

[Dragonchess Player]

Since there is already a paladin in the the group (paladin//barbarian) that will likely be focused on melee combat, you may want to consider a spellcaster/archer:

elf* oracle (Wood mystery; possible ranger 2 dip for saves and to pick up Rapid Shot)//sorcerer (Verdant bloodline; thematic unity, plus Tanglevine and Photosynthesis**) 8/arcane archer 3-4/sorcerer +X

With oracle, you get divine favor and other cleric buffs; with sorcerer, you get gravity bow, true strike, and heroism.

*- I know, they don't get a bonus to Cha; however, the applying the FCB to Wood Bond makes their effective attack bonus with bows comparable to a full-BAB class

**- IMO, one of the more useful bloodline abilities

[Dragonchess Player]

Alternately, a medium (relic channeler)//occultist could be an interesting gestalt.

[Velxir]

A Overwhelming Soul/Elemental Annihilator Kineticist for Melee/Ranged damage and Oracle for utility, buffs and heals would be pretty solid. Stack that CHA!

[Captain K.]

I have played to level 18 in a gestalt game and I have seen what works and what doesn't.If your GM is giving you such options he will be throwing everything at you.

The thing about gestalt, appropriate CR and casters is that tough monsters can make their saves, especially if you need to split stats.

Thus melee types do rather well in high level gestalt, something like a Paladin/Bloodrager is amazing because a super heavy smite doesn't care about gestalt.

No animal companions. They will just die. If your GM allows the companion to gestalt too, you may have a chance. There may be some ridiculous Summoner/Spiritualist mix that's doable.

If you want to go casting, you need one stat and you need to be able to beat saves and SR which will be higher than in a non-gestalt game. Thus:

Sorcerer 20 (whatever you want, but Div is great after level 15)//Oracle 10/ Evangelist of Desna 10. You still need things like an Otherworldy Kimono, but Evangelist of Desna can beat SR.

For an all-rounder, Elf Wizard// Slayer/Lantern Bearer.

[Texas Snyper]

How do you cast as a sorc/paladin? Go armorless? 1 level of magus for light armor casting? Mithril+ feat to reduce cast failure chance?

[Oxylepy]

Covered in the first (second) post that it's homebrew and allowed

Edit to save on posts: Captain K, you mentioned no animal companions, but one thing I've been considering is Shadow Dancer, whose companion is an incorporeal undead with a BAB and Saves equal to your base. Would that remain feasible if you could maintain max saves and BAB. It's a 3 level dip, but it is based on your character, not on your class

[Atarlost]

Captain K. wrote:

No animal companions. They will just die. If your GM allows the companion to gestalt too, you may have a chance. There may be some ridiculous Summoner/Spiritualist mix that's doable.

There are two RAW gestalt animal companion mount options. The Sohei Monk gives twice his level in temporary HP, the monk AC bonus, and most passive monk abilities unless he's traded them for quiggong powers. The Ferocious Mount or Ferocious Beast rage power chains can share rage with its con bonus (or temp HP if unchained) and save bonus and the greater versions can share superstition.

Captain K. wrote:

If you want to go casting, you need one stat and you need to be able to beat saves and SR which will be higher than in a non-gestalt game. Thus:

Sorcerer 20 (whatever you want, but Div is great after level 15)//Oracle 10/ Evangelist of Desna 10. You still need things like an Otherworldy Kimono, but Evangelist of Desna can beat SR.

Buffs don't care about saves unless someone is bringing a superstitious barbarian (the barbarian is also a paladin so probably not and if he is no one is getting through at an acceptable rate) and SR doesn't go higher than spell immune. Soracle is just asking to fail a fort save or die. Oracles have very little offensive casting that isn't on the sorcerer list.

In the specific party composition another pure caster is a liability because there's only one front liner, hence the druid//witch and druid//wizard suggestions. Samsarans are an int/wis race and the point buy is high and wildshape will allow the two squishys to share a space once tiny forms become available at level 6. Wis boosters will be desirable anyways for saving throws.

Wizard//Slayer/Lantern offers no new options in a party that already has a wizard//bard. It just one ups the other wizard creating bad feelings at the table.

[Suthainn]

Oxylepy wrote:

Covered in the first (second) post that it's homebrew and allowed

Edit to save on posts: Captain K, you mentioned no animal companions, but one thing I've been considering is Shadow Dancer, whose companion is an incorporeal undead with a BAB and Saves equal to your base. Would that remain feasible if you could maintain max saves and BAB. It's a 3 level dip, but it is based on your character, not on your class

Only my own experience but the problem with the Shadow I've seen (one of the players in our S&S group is a Shadowdancer) is that whilst BAB and saves may scale... AC doesn't, our Shadowdancer has to have it run away after the first round or two of combat before it's destroyed almost every fight. Might be useful as a scout but I don't think the 3 level dip is worth it tbh.

Oh and i'll throw in a vote for Arcanist/Swashbucker (Inspired Blade), you only really need Dex and Int, you get full casting, full BAB, 2 out of 3 strong saves and Charmed Life to cover the lack of a 3rd, you're not giving up anything much armour wise as a Swashbuckler often sticks to light anyways and best of all parry lets you ignore insane amounts of damage at the higher levels. If you want to always go first (and who doesn't) take School Savant for Arcanist and pick Divination.

[Syrus Terrigan]

>>> Texas Snyper --

You most definitely go armorless as a sor/pal. Cha, Dex, and Con are your primary abilities. Ranged spellcasting with smites on board. Awesome stuff. If you want to get truly busted, you stack some oracle on the paladin side, taking the Life mystery, and soak damage from teammates while swift healing yourself and still getting smitey full attacks against the BBEG. Phenomenal action economy.

[Oxylepy]

Suthainn wrote:

Only my own experience but the problem with the Shadow I've seen (one of the players in our S&S group is a Shadowdancer) is that whilst BAB and saves may scale... AC doesn't, our Shadowdancer has to have it run away after the first round or two of combat before it's destroyed almost every fight. Might be useful as a scout but I don't think the 3 level dip is worth it tbh.

Are you guys remembering to treat it as incorporeal, have you considered giving it gear (ghost touch armor)?

May need to split this off into a new topic if it continues, but I think the single question can still remain

[SmiloDan]

I've rarely played gestalt, but when I have, one of the main issues was decision making delays. Especially with high level gestalt spellcaster//spellcasters, there are so many options each round, it can really slow down play.

While maxing Save, HD, BAB, and skill synergy is a major concern in gestalt games, I think the key aspect is synergizing action economy.

You don't want so many options that it paralyzes you. Also, options you never get to use are essentially not options.

Combining swift actions and full attacks is good. Combining classes that both rely on standard actions and/or full round actions is bad.

EDIT:

I haven't read the rules for it, but I hear-tell that the Unchained book has alternate rules for Action Economy. Depending on what those rules are, they might work better for a party of full-attacking spellcasters with lots of special abilities.

For example, you might be able to attack once and cast once per round. But I don't know, because I don't know the rules for that. Maybe something I should look into....

[Suthainn]

Oxylepy wrote:

Are you guys remembering to treat it as incorporeal, have you considered giving it gear (ghost touch armor)?

May need to split this off into a new topic if it continues, but I think the single question can still remain

Yep, but at the point we're at (11th level) the majority of enemies have magical attacks of some sort, he tried giving it ghost touch armour but that hasn't done much to stop it getting hit tbh. The strength drain is nice but I'm not sure it's worth it overall.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Texas Snyper wrote:

How do you cast as a sorc/paladin? Go armorless? 1 level of magus for light armor casting? Mithril+ feat to reduce cast failure chance?

Going Magus only helps you with magus spells, not your sorcerer ones.