I dunno about disagreement so much as your tonal qualities seems to correlate to that.
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The tonal qualities of my toneless written responses?
PDK,
I can hum alot...also I don't work for you. And yes 8 season isn't enough.
Dirtypool, some times one can see something there...whether or not it was intended.
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Dirtypool, some times one can see something there...whether or not it was intended.
Yeah, that would be called “reading into things.” It’s not a great habit to be in when you frequent web forums - because often the things you are injecting into what you read are your thoughts and not those of the writer.
Implying that your interpretation of my words has more value than what I actually said is a slippery slope.
munch...munch So whats Wheel of Time even about?
Orville,
I have a list, but the #1 issue is that the Battle of Dumai's Wells make the Battle of the Blackwater look like a small sea skirmish.
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Huh? The question was an off hand "what is WoT even about?" No one asked for a list of anything, and you don't make clear what your list is. I assume from your repeated statements that you're explaining WHY you think Wheel of Time needs more seasons than Game of Thrones.
No one asked that question though.
Dirtypool,
No. I misread to say "What things SHOULD be in WoT." Battle of Dumai's Well was my first choice. As for what it's about...I honestly don't feel there's a good one, two or even FIVE sentence summary that truly gives it justice. I really, really don't.
You seem to misread a lot of things in this thread. Maybe you’re too close to it
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It's entirely possible. These were the books that got me through some rough years in college.
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Good points: easy to read, lots of stuff going on, decent action, decently interesting worldbuilding
Bad points: too much non-essential stuff going on at least in the later books (most importantly not terribly interesting), hair pulling, whining about not understanding the opposite sex, a lot of characters start seeming the same, and lack of proper harem comedy tropes for a harem protag.
My number one dislike was that bit about the sexes. I do not feel like I'm exaggerating when I say that like 50% of the problems in the first six books could have been resolved in thirty seconds or less if a male character and a female character actually talked to each other, and not bizarrely dismissed each other for gendered reasons.
There was also a lot of the 'new shiny thing!' going on with the writing.
The bad-guys in book 1 are Trollocs, a thinly-disguised riff on orcs, and they seems to have unlimited numbers of them! Until they go away and are never mentioned again, because the new bad-guy are some northern desert tribe of spear-folk, whose threat is overwhelming, until it ends and they mostly vanish because the *new* threat is the Children of the Light or something, and they strike once and then fade away from two or three *entire books* because there are these new uber-bad-guys with super-powers and we have to meet each of the twelve of them individually, and while that's happening, the Trollocs from book 1 are sitting in the corner teary-eyed and muttering into their flagon of wine, 'The best years of my life I gave that man, and for what?'
(Bear in mind, I haven't read the last few books. For all I know the trollocs came back in high style! But after book, oh, *eight* or so of the 'trilogy', I lost interest.) And yes, I have one of the original books, that says 'book one of a new trilogy!' from back when that rascal thought he was going to be able to wrap this up in three books. :)
These two posts do make it seem as if it could benefit from some editing by those adapting the material.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I have to say that as a non-reader and non-fan of the series there have been two things about it which have turned me off from ever wanting to read it.
1) The fact that Jordan clearly didn't know what his story was and didn't know how long it was, or how many books it was, hence the originally being planned as a trilogy and the massive meandering and detours the series takes.
2) That ever single time I've heard fans describe why it's so good or what it's about their highlight reel of why actually sounds more negative than anything else to me. "It's the best series I've ever read, except for multiple massive problems which I acknowledge are problems, and that it basically sounds like a forgettable cliche start to finish when I summarize it, but it's epic and amazing!"
Have to say that this thread continues that trend. I'll try the show, and my expectations are so low I might actually enjoy it, if it's halfway decent. But there's a dozen shows I'd rather watch first.
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The Wheel of Time is set in our distant future (and, logically, the distant past as well) when humanity has discovered a form of sorcery known as the One Power. The One Power is given a sort-of SFnal explanation that it's the telekinetic manipulation of matter, powered by temporal energy (the True Source) which is accessed differently by men and women. About 3% of the population can use the One Power and their main organisation/guild is known as the Aes Sedai (the Servants of All).
This leads to the creation of a golden age - the Age of Legends - when everyone lives in peace, there's amazing scientific discoveries and the One Power is used to teleport people around the world and create great works of art and science. Naturally, this all goes balls-up when an experiment into the nature of the Power goes awry and inadvertently allows a being known as "the Dark One" to touch the world. The Dark One isn't really a person but the embodiment of evil and chaos as a raw force of nature (albeit with a controlling intelligence). The Dark One's influence reintroduces chaos, murder, war and evil into the world, leading to the collapse of society and the beginning of a full-scale war between the Dark One's followers and the forces of "the Light," led by the leader of the Aes Sedai, Lews Therin Telamon, who is nicknamed "the Dragon." The Dark One's ambition is to break fully into the world and recreate time and space in its own, unpleasant image.
After ten years of war, in which billions are killed, the Light wins the war by launching a direct strike on Shayol Ghul, the mountain which serves as the conduit for the Dark One's touch on the world. There is a massive division in the Aes Sedai on how to carry out the attack, which splits on gendered lines between two ajah (temporary political groupings), the all-male Hundred Companions and the all-female Fateful Concord. The Concord argues that the attack may risk the fabric of reality itself, but the Hundred Companions go ahead with it. This is a Bad Idea as the Dark One is defeated and the hole in the world patched (imperfectly), but in the process it is able to taint the male half of the True Source. Every male channeller goes insane on the instant and in their insanity, use the Power to devastate the world.
After the Breaking of the World ends, in which ~90% of the surviving human race is wiped out, humanity is reduced to a medieval-at-best level of technology and only women remain in the Aes Sedai. Any male channeller is either killed or "gentled" (cut off from the Power) when they are discovered, as the taint remains in force. However, viewings of the future (imperfect glimpses of what is to come) reveal that the patch on the Dark One's prison will fail and the Dragon will be Reborn to confront him. After news of this becomes public, many male channellers claim to be the Dragon Reborn to avoid their fate, but are defeated.
The books/TV show starts about 3,400 years later, when the power and influence of the Aes Sedai has waned considerably, but several of their number have learned that, twenty years earlier, the Dragon was Reborn for real, but he has no idea of his destiny. One of the Aes Sedai sets out to find him, and four million words of Shenanigans ensue.
Hmm, seems like run of the mill fantasy. I'll take a look when it drops and see if its worth following.
I guess I'm kind of like Joel on this in that even folks who like it are really lukewarm on it. Occasionally, you get somebody who thinks its the best thing ever, but thats not the majority of what I hear. So, run of the mill is based on the numerous takes I've heard over the years, which is why I never bothered to read WoT. Maybe it will make a better television series?
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When it came out it was unusual in that it had a very strong, majority-female cast (even if the "chosen one" is still a guy) and it drew on DUNE as much, if not a lot more, than fantasy like LORD OF THE RINGS. The male saviour whose coming has been foretold but could also destroy everything is much more Frank Herbert-ish than Tolkien.
The unusual detail of the worldbuilding (easily the most comprehensive since Tolkien at that point) and the idea of a rationalised, science-like "magic system" were also both quite unusual and new at the time as well.
There was a good review in the mid-90s that said that Robert Jordan was the Stephen King of epic fantasy: approachable with some interesting ideas bubbling under the surface and some thematic and literary ideas, but also a bit too long and with a few problematic elements and things that had not dated well, but ultimately impressive in its total construction and structure.
I do think it helps if you come to THE WHEEL OF TIME early in reading fantasy. If you've already read GRRM, Steven Erikson, Glen Cook, Robin Hobb, NK Jemisin, Kameron Hurley etc it can feel a lot more old-fashioned and less impressive.
I always thought the One Power/True Source was more magic than psychic power since weaves seemed more...gendered.
Overille,
I take SOME umbrage to it being "run of the mill' considering I was reading (at the time) Feist's Riftwar stuff and Eddings. (It doesn't matter the title). While the sexism was kind of baked in at times, it STILL felt more real to me than that stuff was.
Also, Trollocs were just the grunts/heavies. They weren't meant to be truly terrifying other than being an overwhelming force. The Myddraal on the other hand were kind of more powerful, but even they got reduced as the main characters learned to over come the look of fear from the Faceless. But honestly what was REALLY kind of underwhelming to me (by the end) was the build up of a certain Darkfriend that while he was murdered by a main character...wasn't murdered/defeated by the Chosen one.
(Also one could argue that without Matt and Perrin, Rand would have failed.)
Also, thank you Wert for the summary. It was almost like I was writing it.
One futher addendum, I will agree if you read Robin Hobb or NK Nesmin BEFORE you read this, then yes it might not seem that revolutionary.
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I take SOME umbrage to it being "run of the mill' considering I was reading (at the time) Feist's Riftwar stuff and Eddings.
Mmm. Raymond Feist. How many hopes and dreams I would crush under my jackboots for a Lord of the Rings quality movie adaptation of Magician, or Daughter of Empire!
But as for the Wheel of Time, one thing I really liked was the different colors/ajah? of Aes Sedai and their different areas of focus. I especially liked the green. At some point an Aes Sedai found out she could invest a nubbin of her power in a protector, her 'Warder,' and he would gain some really minor enhancements, and a pseudo-psychic connection to her, and the Green Ajah went all Oprah and were like, 'You're a warder, and you're a warder, everybody's a warder!' so while most Aes Sedai had only a single bonded fighter companion (or less, the reds, IIRC, shunned them), the greens travelled around with two, three or more!
The elemental themes of a lot of the magic was also neat, and kept things a bit more down to earth than some more D&D style magic which begins to read like science fiction (teleportation? black holes?). Lots of manipulations of air, earth, water and fire, and, yeah, people's minds and emotions.
The power levels, well, some of the starting characters stayed around Andre Norton's Witch World kind of levels, but quickly a few of the more potent examples, including the chosen Rand, ramped up to X-Men territory... You've got characters at both extremes. "I'm going to call up a fog, so we can slip away in the confusion!" and "I'm gonna burn them all in lava I'm pulling up from the shaking earth!"
The special effects should be *amazing* as the more powerful characters go all Earthbender and stuff on each other.
In the briefest outline, it's another "farm boy is destined to save the world from the dark lord" story. That can be good or bad, run of the mill or fresh and exciting. It all depends on the journey between those endpoints.
And if there was sword made out of lasers in it. A laser sword improves everything! :)
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And if there was sword made out of lasers in it. A laser sword improves everything! :)
I take SOME umbrage to it being "run of the mill' considering I was reading (at the time) Feist's Riftwar stuff and Eddings. (It doesn't matter the title). While the sexism was kind of baked in at times, it STILL felt more real to me than that stuff was.
If you are taking personal offense at someones stated first impression then - per our previous conversation - you are definitely too close to this.
I dunno if I consider it a PERSONAL offense, so much as offensive, dirtpool. But again, I will agree that I might be too close.
Also, Callendor is not a spoiler. It's literally on the cover of Book 3.
Set,
You really hurt my heart saying that since honestly I've never been that fond of Riftwar...
But otherwise, you made some salient points.
I dunno if I consider it a PERSONAL offense, so much as offensive, dirtpool. But again, I will agree that I might be too close.
The phrase“Taking Umbrage” literally means you personally are offended. Secondly, it’s a book. How in the world is it offensive that someone said it sounded “run of the mill?”
Also, Callendor is not a spoiler. It's literally on the cover of Book 3..
I have no clue what that even means.
Thanks for the assist Bjorn. Yes Wot has flaws. Some times very SERIOUS ones. But overall the pros more often out weighted the cons. (Or does everyone here still think that modern fantasy series have no flaws?)
Also, yes Callendor does NOT actually do the death star beam thing on the cover, but it is on the cover and thus I was confused by why people were using a spoiler tag. Now if people wanted to use spoiler tag about the guy with the flames out of his face and Moridin, that would be different.
Dirtypool,
I think you and I have different ideas about what some words means. As for how I can feel offended by someone saying it was run of the mill, just ask someone who if they loved DBZ and then have someone call it "A run of the mill" shonen series...if they wouldn't feel that way.
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Dirtypool,
I think you and I have different ideas about what some words means.
It sounds like you just used the phrase incorrectly …
take umbrage (Dictionary.com)
Feel resentment, take offense, as in Aunt Agatha is quick to take umbrage at any suggestion to do things differently.
Definition of umbrage (Webster)
a feeling of pique or resentment at some often fancied slight or insult
‘took umbrage at the speaker's remarks’
take umbrage (Cambridge dictionary)
to feel upset or annoyed, usually because you feel that someone has been rude or shown no respect to you
Marc,
It's possible but honestly I thought it meant something else. Generally speaking I've used umbrage in conversations where people that I've said this too didn't feel I was being offended. At least not to my knowledge.
QB,
Hush. :p
Dirtypool,I think you and I have different ideas about what some words means. As for how I can feel offended by someone saying it was run of the mill, just ask someone who if they loved DBZ and then have someone call it "A run of the mill" shonen series...if they wouldn't feel that way.
Yeah. In each instance you have “an idea” of what something means that doesn’t match the literal definition.
As for the Dragonball Z example: if you are offended by someone’s innocent opinion of a fictional work, you might need to examine your relationship with said fictional work to see if it is healthy.
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Marc,
It's possible but honestly I thought it meant something else. Generally speaking I've used umbrage in conversations where people that I've said this too didn't feel I was being offended. At least not to my knowledge.
It’s not ‘possible’ … it’s an easily demonstrable fact. The phrase means what it means, regardless of how you’ve used it in the past, or what you mistakenly thought it meant.
And just because people you’ve incorrectly used it with in the past either also didn’t know its correct meaning, or did but just didn’t bother to correct you doesn’t change the fact that you are simply using it wrong.
We encounter people all the time using words and phrases incorrectly, but don’t know they are doing so. That doesn’t alter reality or change the meaning of the word or phrase, it just makes those people wrong.
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Strict interpretation of phrases is a minefield Marc, language is more flexible than silk and in time pretty much every phrase ends up being bastardized from the original form.
Literally the word "literally" actually ALSO means "figuratively" (not literally figuratively but literally actually literally) as one of the most recent examples, in short, cut the guy a break, language gatekeeping of definitions is an effort as fruitless as trying to argue with anime profile pictures on Twitter, the wind will always shift and eventually leave you without a paddle.
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Strict interpretation of phrases is a minefield Marc, language is more flexible than silk and in time pretty much every phrase ends up being bastardized from the original form.
Literally the word "literally" actually ALSO means "figuratively" (not literally figuratively but literally actually literally) as one of the most recent examples, in short, cut the guy a break, language gatekeeping of definitions is an effort as fruitless as trying to argue with anime profile pictures on Twitter, the wind will always shift and eventually leave you without a paddle.
Language is fluid sure, it is not so open to interpretation that you can use a phrase and claim that you meant the exact opposite thing from what you had claimed.
The trailer drops tomorrow at 8.30am PT/11.30am ET/4.30pm BST.
They also revealed a new image, of Moiraine standing atop the White Tower and gazing out over Tar Valon.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Language is fluid sure, it is not so open to interpretation that you can use a phrase and claim that you meant the exact opposite thing from what you had claimed.Strict interpretation of phrases is a minefield Marc, language is more flexible than silk and in time pretty much every phrase ends up being bastardized from the original form.
Literally the word "literally" actually ALSO means "figuratively" (not literally figuratively but literally actually literally) as one of the most recent examples, in short, cut the guy a break, language gatekeeping of definitions is an effort as fruitless as trying to argue with anime profile pictures on Twitter, the wind will always shift and eventually leave you without a paddle.
While I agree, there are weird exceptions to this, like inflammable actually meaning flammable. :)
While I agree, there are weird exceptions to this, like inflammable actually meaning flammable. :)
Yes, but we're not talking about generalities and weird exceptions. We're talking about two specific cases where the stated meaning and the actual meaning were miles apart.
I like the visuals so far. I hope the trailer will be good. Thanks for letting me know Wert.
Trailer, pictures and commentary.
Looks pretty good, albeit some big changes from the book.
Im getting hints of Witcher and GoT and guessing quality will be somewhere in between. Look forward to see how my first impression shakes out.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Well, the trailer at least shows that it will look pretty good. Not a lot of dialogue other than voice overs and "the wheel of time keeps turning" to tell how good the acting is. But it's also looking like possibly the first well made high quality high fantasy story. Most of what's been done elsewhere has been low and/or rare magic settings, or low quality.
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Another show where all of the characters have perfect hair, makeup, spotless environments, and unrealistically ornate undamaged equipment and armor... par for the course I suppose, I don't know what I expected really but I can't help but feel like this is going to be overproduced like crazy in attempts to appeal to mass markets by making it all look pristine and attractive.
Considering the fact they haven't gotten to showcase how much power the One Power truly has...I think the pristine-ness will fade. Especially when we have the part in Crown of Swords from the end of the Battle of Dumai's Wells.
I like the trailer. I felt though they undered-played the Trollocs and the Myrddraal. But I think since this is the first trailer, that's understandable.