Wheel of Time TV series officially in development


Television

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There's that possibility too, Joel.


So someone was telling me that you have to look for him but Padin Fain shows up several times in the scenes in Tar Valon, kind of a Where's Waldo sort of way.


I mean that's kind of his MO throughout the series, keeping out of sight of the main characters when they might decide to end him. The only reason they didn't do that in the books is they had bigger fish to fry. (Which is why I enjoyed him/thought he would be more of a threat as the series continued)


Who here has read the whole series? Spoilers

Padin:

If they get that far, having him be able to do more at the final battle or near it would be better than what we got. Gets built up to be this horrible threat and gets pwned by Mat.


I mean I read up to book 8-9...but I do know what happens. But I'm less mad about that now than before. Mostly because Matt is a main character.


I think they've played up the stuff they've added to mat so much that they forgot to add in anything good natured or likable. To the point that post dagger mat isn't nearly the noticable change it would be from the guy that thought it would be fun to turn a badger loose on the girls dancing on the green.


Yeah that's been one of the things I didn't like either about this. (Course there's more...but whatever.)


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To date, this has been a fine looking series but I'm just not invested in any of the characters.

To save me the headache of an Internet search can someone answer the following question:

In-universe, how does a 55kg pregnant person fight off several 100+kg elite knights, including up to three at a time?


Because Aiel are bad ass and also this: I mean if you don't accept Jordan...


Yes, but how are they bad ass? Magic? Some sort of oath weave about them?

I've been in a boxing ring with a guy who had maybe 10kgs on me, and even with the gloves and the rules and the padding.... let's just say it was no contest. With a little size advantage it's easy to knock someone off balance and once that happens you pound them into the ground. End of fight.


They are bad ass because they live in the Waste, a true battlefield of endurance. You either survive there, or you don't. That's the Aiel way. They have an oath: Til shade is gone, til water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared; to spit into Sightblinder's Eye on the Last day.

That's how bad ass they are. Especially the Maidens of the Spear.


Well yeah. I can see from the show that they are badass.

How? How are they badass?

Given how badass they are, from what was shown, I would guess the attrition rate is about 1-in-1,000 survive the training. Assuming some sort of magic or superhuman genetics isn't involved.


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Basically Aiel live the hard life. Everyday is struggle and fight just to get by. Lots of them do die. Those that live become hard and fast.

The 3.5 book for the setting made them their own character class that was pretty much a Fighter/Monk Gestault.

Real world example?...might be like putting yourself in a Ring with a little guy who learned Muay thai on the streets for survival.


Grey is pretty much correct. The Aiel training regiment is basically desert survival meets Spartan purity trials. They bred for it and those that wish to join must learn to do so at their own peril.

As for real world stuff, you do realize this is the same world has has half human/half beast men right...


Okay, yeah. But IRL people living in that type of situation would indeed be hard as steel. Also, they'd busted and worthless by age 25 or so because the human body can only take so much pounding.

Also, if I outweighed the Aiel Muay Thai guy by 50kg I'd stand a chance with almost no training.

Or are the Aiel more like a D&D/PF monk where they're basically using some sort of Chi to do superhuman stuff?

As for chimeras, that's what I'm getting at. Are the Aiel "magical" or just pulp-fiction uber-tough?


Probably heads into Warhammer 40K levels with the whole 99 out of a hundred Space Marine trainees die for just one basic SM grunt who gets pasted by the first volley of rocket bullets.


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Just pulp-fiction uber-tough. There's no magic to the Aiel.

They're not D&D monks with special Chi powers. They're just higher level D&D fighters than the regular soldiers from the other kingdoms.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Having watched many boxing matches and MMA fights where the bigger barely trained guy gets utterly dismantled by the skilled opponent - I think the repeated claims of being able to take the trained person by just being bigger is wishful thinking at best.


I mean unless you're the Hulk, it's pretty clear skill beats muscle most of the time. And trust me, the Aiel are SKILLED mofos. Like they can outperform bladesmasters in WoT without any weapons.


So you say. I'll take thejeff's answer as canon. The story is pulp.

Boxing weight classes are ~1.5kg apart at the low end and ~10.0kg towards the upper end. Why?

MMA has rules. If there were no rules it would be the fastest guy that wins the vast majority of the time, with an edge to whomever was biggest and/or had the longest reach.

In episode 7 Rand's mum yanks a guy by the cloak who's charging her and knocks him flat on his back. The fellow weighs at least double what she does. Without some sort of magic or chi force that move is literally impossible.

IRL anyone who somehow lives to age 25 years in such a culture would have a manky janky mess of a body.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The fastest fighter and the biggest fighter often are not the same person.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
I mean unless you're the Hulk, it's pretty clear skill beats muscle most of the time. And trust me, the Aiel are SKILLED mofos. Like they can outperform bladesmasters in WoT without any weapons.

In settings where armor isn't useless (like meatspace), armor changes that a LOT. Getting a shot into a gap on a moving target fighting back and swinging their own weapon at you is a horrifically difficult thing to do. (Which is why a lot of manuals on fighting people in plate have step 1: grapple the guy. Step 2, insert sharp pointy object into armor, rather than skipping the obviously very dangerous step 1) It's MUCH easier to take a two handed axe or a mace and just hit the armor so hard you concuss pulverize or squish the soft chewy center of the kanigit metal sandwhich.

But WOT is very heavy on the pulp action end, so these people keep wearing armor despite the drawbacks but the people not wearing it are badass enough to do them in anyway.


So, im noticing a trend with Amazon series and content. The template seems to be an 8 episode season with a 3 episode premier followed by weekly releases. Those 3 episode dumps are usually great setups with some of the season's best content. Then, the weekly episode drops tend to waver in quality as they spin the wheels on a series of "will they or wont they" questions for the audience that is then wrapped up neatly at the season ending episode. I've seen this with The Boys, The Expanse, and now Wheel of Time.

I'm in that wheel spinning phase with WoT and im just waiting for the interesting bits. Thom the bard, the white cloak inquisitor Valda, and that sketchy merchant Padin. Is it bad I care more about these characters then the main cast, or is it just hunger for something to actually happen?

Sovereign Court

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Quark Blast wrote:
How? How are they badass?

If I remember correctly: highly advanced combat and endurance training. Constant military lifestyle. Nothing superhuman, but all of them are peak human. Perhaps long enough to have it in their genes as well. Perhaps also the 'rage' ability in terms of Pathfinder...

Design Manager

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If we're talking about nature vs nurture for Aiel, keep in mind

Massive enormous spoilers about Rand's Mom:
Shaiel/Tigraine Mantear was the Daughter Heir of Andor before she went to the Aiel Waste, so she wasn't born there. It'd be all training. Unless they changed that of course.


Mark,

One would assume that hasn't changed...but who knows.

Orville,

Some of the cast can be a little much, yes, but liking Thom is considered good taste.


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I'm watching the series with my spouse. She's not read the books. I read the books until I quit after one too many split-party cross-country trips, hail pulls, and characters carrying the distrust ball. (Maybe around Fires of Heaven or Lord of Chaos? I remember Seanchan.)

BUT!

It's been really pleasant watching this series. It's been so long since I read the books covered thus far that I have the pleasures of both recognition and surprise. (And it helps that there's significant canon changes already.) I have the fun of watching with someone else who's getting into the series. Morraine and Lan have been the core of the fun thus far for us. And the medium shift to television has, to my mind, improved the work by requiring more showing than telling, allowing a few scenes of distrust to make the point, and cutting improves the pacing when you have a split party on different cross-country trips.

Solid B+ so far.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
How? How are they badass?
If I remember correctly: highly advanced combat and endurance training. Constant military lifestyle. Nothing superhuman, but all of them are peak human. Perhaps long enough to have it in their genes as well. Perhaps also the 'rage' ability in terms of Pathfinder...

The "rage" ability is more like Chi harnessing than mere training.

If it's just training, lots and lots of training, then anyone who trains that hard still can't handle a fight like that - while 9 months pregnant and being outweighed 50+kg by every opponent. Those were Matrix-style moves.

BNW wrote:
But WOT is very heavy on the pulp action end, so these people keep wearing armor despite the drawbacks but the people not wearing it are badass enough to do them in anyway.

I'll side with the 'this is pulp' option.


Not sure I side with it...but then again I never felt WoT was pulp when you had characters that could level continents...


I'm just trying to figure out how to read the action and other elements presented. This is having a pulpy go-with-the-flow of action feel to it.


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Big WOT fan, kept away from anything on the internet as to not spoil things.

Overall I enjoyed the season. But I have some minor and major complaints.

My major one is Thom, Thom is awesome. Thom however doesn't get enough screentime. But more importantly Thoms letter from the books and his relationship with Morraine trigger one of the best section of fiction. But book 1 + 4 are his times to build a relationship with Morraine and he hasn't met her yet.

The other semi major one is Nyneave and Lan, I was so looking forward to her disparaging comments about Rand and Matts relationships and the sniffing and hair pulling, but she can't do that now.

The minor ones - Morraine +The Amirlyn seat being lovers. Because their relationship is very strong and loving but in a years time in the books they need to develop strong feelings for other characters and if that happens it'll be jarring.

Overall I felt the series focused a bit much on fast paced 'cool' rather than solidly developing character relationships. The best relationships were Logain w all channellers, Morraine with Lan, and Morraine and Leandrin.

I have thoughts about the season finale but I won't discuss it yet.


I think we can assume Moiraine and Thom's relationship is not going to happen. It was always contrived as hell in the books and never made sense, and the letter was nice but there was no foundation to it; Thom and Moiraine barely spent any time together at all. That's why they simply continued Moiraine and Siuan's relationship from when they were novices.

As for the Aiel, in the books:

Spoiler:
The Aiel's ancestors, the Da'shain, had some funky supernatural powers that nobody could explain but seem related to the Ogier and the Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Series Green Man, who both have superhuman strength and endurance. Though not expressly stated, it's possible that the modern-day Aiel have inherited some of these abilities in a diluted state. Otherwise the Aiel can come across as a slightly iffy embodiment of the "noble savage" trope who are more badass then "civilised" characters despite/because of living in a hostile environment. Or WalMart Fremen, but at least the Fremen are presented as being problematic in the text.


Werthead wrote:

I think we can assume Moiraine and Thom's relationship is not going to happen. It was always contrived as hell in the books and never made sense, and the letter was nice but there was no foundation to it; Thom and Moiraine barely spent any time together at all. That's why they simply continued Moiraine and Siuan's relationship from when they were novices.

I'd assumed the relationship developed whilst the main trio were off screen in books 1, 3, and 4.

Siuans later book relationship was pretty kick-butt so maybe it won't happen and they'll keep the Siuan-Morrainne pairing.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Not sure I side with it...but then again I never felt WoT was pulp when you had characters that could level continents...

there's a reason they almost split off into their own campaign. It doesn't feel that dis concordant till the very end where... Yeah.

not very spoilery:
You, the army you're hiding behind, the fortress your army is hiding behind, the cliff your fortress is built into, and your continental shelf the cliff is sitting on should have been atomized in 3.4 seconds. Although Damondred could legitimately have wanted to "win" their "game" first.


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Thom and moraine had a lot of innuendo packed into one early chapter of book 4, where they were having fun playing the game of houses kinda sort of mostly on the same side.


So combining the two things - one "spoiler" from Mark Seifter and one from Werthead - the birthing person was not native to Aiel culture therefore it doesn't matter if native Aiel inherit special abilities or not. That leaves training for her, which in turn means I, as a viewer, am to interpret the awesome battle prowess as simply rule-of-cool pulp. Thanks! That helps me enjoy the series.

I am continually thrown off by MCU "normals" (Black Widow especially) that are alternately being presented as:
Just a highly trained human, or
Equally amazing as a serum-soaked super-soldier.


Whatever Aiel are cool and not pulp. :p And yes Tigrane isn't a full blood Aiel.

I have no idea how they might (if they will) resolve the tension between Thom and Moiriane that supposed to occur and then be a plot point in book 11 I think.

What I do know is they really made a mess of Eye of the World in terms of why they had to go there. I mean seriously no Balathamel??! No Aginor?! Sheesh.


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I really enjoyed the final episode. The middle of this season was really boring. I like the set up for more stories to come, though hope some of the villainous folks get more screen time.

spoiler:
I dont like the death fake out stuff in any type of writing. I wish they would have gone a different direction in the city siege.


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I think so far the big mistake is not developing the main characters. Suian sanche has more characterization at this point than all three male leads.


Yeah well...I think that's more a sign they went in a direction none of us expected...


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
I think so far the big mistake is not developing the main characters. Suian sanche has more characterization at this point than all three male leads.

It was really odd that the middle wheel spinning episodes focused so little on the main characters, not even the villains, but the support characters got all the focus. Not saying these characters are not good, but so little is spent on the dragon reborn potentials.

I kind of hinted at this earlier, my opinion of course, but there seems to be an Amazon formula for their series. They all tend to feel the same. 3 excellent episode dump that sets up the season perfectly to start, then followed by tons of wheel spinning filler, and finally an overstuffed season finale that moves at break neck speed.

I know Amazon is content on doing a weekly release, but the content so far doesnt work well for it. Amazon is getting better all the time, but they are not WB/HBO level yet. I wish they would rethink their series formula and try something different.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I think so far the big mistake is not developing the main characters. Suian sanche has more characterization at this point than all three male leads.

Mayhaps you answered your own question there.

:D

.

Orville wrote:
It was really odd that the middle wheel spinning episodes focused so little on the main characters, not even the villains, but the support characters got all the focus. Not saying these characters are not good, but so little is spent on the dragon reborn potentials.

As another solution:

This could be a side effect of trying to make it a mystery as to who the Dragon Reborn really is for the TV adaption* of a novel that does not in the least hide who he is.

* Kind of like how there were two central mysteries in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.
1) Is Harry the "chosen one"?
2) Who is/was the Half-blood Prince?
While #2 was a legit mystery for the characters to solve and the reader/watcher to follow along with, #1 was hardly in question as every bloody book/movie title begins "Harry Potter and...". So yeah, I'm guessing Harry is the "chosen one".


All I know is they pretty much wasted Ba'alzamon in this...so they'd be hurry up quick to fix that. Honestly they didn't do much for Fain either.


To be fair eye of the world in the books was a little weird on why they needed to be there.


Something about a prophecy that Loial heard and Ba'alzamon crowing about doing it. At least that's what I recall. What I am miffed about is mainly they sidelined ALL the villains except for the Trollocs and maybe one Fade.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I watched the first episode and was not impressed, nor was my wife. I haven't read the books, and don't think we'll continue watching this series. Why is it so hard for a fantasy series to be done right? I'm also looking at you, The Watch. I suspect The Rings of Power will also be disappointing later this year, though I hope I am wrong on this count.


Fum,

I'd suggest you try read the books but don't expect to finish the series quickly or without some pauses. No idea if Rings of Power will be good or not.


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Honestly, I have to say that I am very impressed. It's not every day that an adaption can go so far out of its way to insult the source material and anyone that liked it, but by Jove, Amazon has not only suceeded, but passed with flying colors.

Dragonball: Evolution is literally a better adaptation than this.


Wow. It's not often you see something where the torch and pitchfork crowd needs more torch and pitchfork but.. yeah. This is bad. This is like some spinoff series Which would be fine but it means we're NOT getting an actual adaptation of the books in my life time.

I would rather have the red eagle people that did that one minute introduction of Ishmael that was shown once at midnight to keep the development rights working on this than the current crop of people.


I'd say Season 2 has been a comprehensively better season than the first (and infinitely better than the mess the last two episodes degenerated into, although I try to give them some leeway due to COVID). The writing is better, there's a clearer vision of what the story is supposed to be, the effects are better, and more consistent, and the Seanchan have been depicted reasonably well (even down to the American accents). The actress playing Lanfear is also great, although the actor playing Ishamael I think has turned out to be too limited.

However, the show has also accelerated into what was always going to be its biggest issue, that they will (assuming 8x8 episodes) have less episodes than GAME OF THRONES to tell a story almost three times as long, which would always entail a very high degree of adaptation. For Season 2 they linearly adapted Books 2 and 3 and merged them into one story, which isn't actually a bad idea (The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn repeat a huge number of ideas and tropes between the two books) anyway, but is 100% necessary for the story they're telling. I would have personally merged them by having the Seanchan caputre Tear and still have the Sword in the Stone in play, but maybe they felt that was far too on the nose.

Quote:
I would rather have the red eagle people that did that one minute introduction of Ishmael that was shown once at midnight to keep the development rights working on this than the current crop of people.

They are working on this. They're the main rights-holders, and provided the rights for Amazon and Sony to make this show.

Red Eagle have, pretty consistently across multiple projects, shown they have zero problem dumping any kind of fidelity in return for money.

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