Also, in 3.5 at least, the core rules use the term "natural" to describe abilities which are not Ex, Su, Sp, or spells. I'm AFB and on my phone now, so I can't easily check if PF kept the same terminology, but if so, it would seem spellcasting would be contrary to being "natural". No more spells for druids!
that's the point I was trying to make that you missed, they aren't about what's natural they're just only pro animal and plant stuff.
So they can wear leather because it's animal related. Iron isn't related to animals or plants.
Besides if we're getting technical the iron we ingest is a different isotope than the common veins of it in the ground. Though our body can slowly change it to the correct isotope.
basically it got messed up lore wise when they said they could do elementals. because now earth is under their domain, and so metal should be too...
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sometimes I wonder if only I see my posts
{. . .}
Combat Style - At level 4, select a combat style, and one feat from the list for that style. At levels 10 and 16, get another feat from the same list. The Rogue need not take Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. When using any of these feats and they depend upon CMB or attack rolls, treat Rogue levels as Warrior levels for the Base Attack portion when calculating CMB:
{. . .}
Addition:
A Rogue that actually has Combat Expertise can ignore the attack roll penalty when attacking a flanked enemy.
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another interesting thing I had heard is the 1st edition monk was based on David Caradines character from kung-fu.
(personal but semi a fact) also the 1st edition monk was practically unplayable
Leather is anti-animal.Also, in 3.5 at least, the core rules use the term "natural" to describe abilities which are not Ex, Su, Sp, or spells. I'm AFB and on my phone now, so I can't easily check if PF kept the same terminology, but if so, it would seem spellcasting would be contrary to being "natural". No more spells for druids!that's the point I was trying to make that you missed, they aren't about what's natural they're just only pro animal and plant stuff
seems pretty animal to me.
or are you suggesting a rock in the ground is more related to animals than leather?
Besides if we're getting technical the iron we ingest is a different isotope than the common veins of it in the ground. Though our body can slowly change it to the correct isotope.Isotope changing is organism-based? I want my nuclear druid now.
This is how they radio carbon date... Animals like a specific isotope of carbon and it likes to decay into another, so we can see about how dead something has been by how much of that carbon has decayed.
*brings up stone plate again*
So they can wear leather because it's animal related. Iron isn't related to animals or plants.
which is why I've been bringing up when this requirement to not wear metal armor was first created, they weren't associated with the earth or elements, and stone plate wasn't a thing either.
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sometimes I wonder if only I see my posts
Who said that?!
** spoiler omitted **
If a basis is obsolete, so are any conclusions from that basis.
you CAN ingest the other form of carbon, they're just not metabolized.
to be clear, I was simply showing a commonly known thing that has it's basis on organisms having preferential treatment for isotopes.
Though, It appears in my late night reading when I originally made that comment I misread something. It's not an isotope it's the oxidation state, which as to do with the amount of electrons contained in the iron, not neutrons. :/
The kind in the ground is usually ferric, and is insoluble, you know the kind of thing you can't properly use. Ferrous iron is found in animals and what not and is soluble, so we can use it.
I'm guessing Atarlost is saying that leather is "anti-animal" because you have to kill animals to get it.Leather is anti-animal.Also, in 3.5 at least, the core rules use the term "natural" to describe abilities which are not Ex, Su, Sp, or spells. I'm AFB and on my phone now, so I can't easily check if PF kept the same terminology, but if so, it would seem spellcasting would be contrary to being "natural". No more spells for druids!that's the point I was trying to make that you missed, they aren't about what's natural they're just only pro animal and plant stuffseems pretty animal to me.
or are you suggesting a rock in the ground is more related to animals than leather?
you don't though. can just use the resources of an already dead animal. Also, animals kill each other all the time and eat each other. Druids aren't particularly against killing small numbers of animals, I only think when it's done for profit they object.
Then blue cheese dressing is anti blue mold, even though there is a lot more blue mold in the world because of it.
Scientists have proven that plants scream when being harvested, you just cannot hear it.
You can reduce the amount of hypocrisy in your life. You cannot eliminate it entirely. Thus the balance of nature druids are fond of talking about.
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It seems that Druids only care about killing animals when it jeopardizes the natural balance.
What's odd is that I assume most leather armor to come from cow leather. And cows aren't exactly "natural".
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Magical waterproof leather armor comes from seals.
Are you happy? You took this conversation there.
You could have just said that leather is magically shed by cows like in Farmville or Big Farm, but no, you had to track reality in here!
Wolves sneak into flocks of sheep by wearing the skin of a sheep they previously ate. There's an otherwise normal wolf wearing leather. It doesn't last long because they don't treat it like humans do. Now you have that HORRIBLE PICTURE IN YOUR MIND.
stuffI associate a fondness for using dead creatures over other viable options with partially insane necromancers, but whatever.
They prefer methods of living that don't require for profit exploitation of natural resources... you know like mines.
Or farms for leather...They prefer methods of living that don't require for profit exploitation of natural resources... you know like mines.stuffI associate a fondness for using dead creatures over other viable options with partially insane necromancers, but whatever.
they don't like those either, thankfully you can get leather without a farm and so long as you know how to sew, you can make clothing from it. Getting metal armor though? that requires a whole industry of mines to transport to specialist craftsmen. Getting metal is impossible on your own without making is a business.
Mining simply requires too many calories of work to be useful unless done by many many people. Then to make that mining product useful, you have to spend calories on transporting it to a specalist that can melt it down and craft it.
Besides where would you plug in your amps? You cant have heavy metal rock without amps!
To be serious, only copper occurs naturally in that form. Iron has to be cooked out of the ore.
Other metals, including but not limited to iron, gold, and mercury, sometimes occur naturally in metallic form. Iron is rare due to the rate at which it rusts, but given a dry enough environment (for instance, outer space), it will stick around for a while.
Now I want to see a Numerian Druid archetype that embraces the TechShadow . . . .
Mining simply requires too many calories of work to be useful unless done by many many people. Then to make that mining product useful, you have to spend calories on transporting it to a specalist that can melt it down and craft it.Carnivores simply require too many calories of work to be useful unless provided by many herbivores.
Also, the same argument applies to flint. Flint is mined much like metal and requires specialized skills to craft and would be shipped great distances.
The European Trade Community predates bronze. And once trade exists bronze isn't that difficult. As should be obvious if the constituent metals weren't shallow enough and in soft enough places to dig with bone and stone tools there would never have been a bronze age. Working it takes no great amount of effort compared to shaping flint, particularly given how great a labor saver it is. Neolithic and Bronze Age people weren't stupid. They didn't ship copper and tin and before that flint around Europe because it was harder than living without them.
ugh... flint can be chipped off of surface rocks...
the point is a single person couldn't decide to make a suit of iron, it takes a community. I'm not sure what that was all about, are you agreeing with me that metal manufacture required a ton of people or not.
or maybe its cuz druids were around in the iron age so there stuck in a previous era. (yeah now i'm just making fun)
Another fix that I think it's mandatory by now is this:
- Add firearms proficiencies to the Swashbuckler
Look, it's supposed to be a hybrid class of Fighter and Gunslinger, but it doesn't even HAVE automatic proficiency with firearms, which THE feature of gunslingers.
I know that archetypes exist, but still, that's like having a hybrid class between cleric and wizard and not having either spell list :P
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Here's why BTB(By The Books) Druids cannot use metal armor,
Gaia said so!
Also, LOOK AT THIS.
http://www.losapos.com/openpitmines
Yes, but Gaia hasn't been in charge of anything for a while. Caves and other deep earth affairs are currently under Hades' administration. Also, this is the homebrew section, so the book doesn't matter much.Here's why BTB(By The Books) Druids cannot use metal armor,
Gaia said so!
Also, LOOK AT THIS.http://www.losapos.com/openpitmines
Yes, strip mines do look like Hell.
Did you look at them?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Bandw2, after a certain quality level, anything is going to require an industry to acquire. Unless every druid is personally crafting everything they have, i find your point falls flat. Besides, this being fantasy and all, there's no good reason why you couldn't find metals occurring biologically.
in first edition when the whole armor business was created, druids ALSO thought magical beasts were magical abominations that should be destroyed, a perversion of nature.
and that's the point. I'd assume most druids live in woods and mostly make stuff themselves.
in case people keep missing this, i'm explaining why the armor thing originally happened, not why it should stay.
Yes, but Gaia hasn't been in charge of anything for a while. Caves and other deep earth affairs are currently under Hades' administration. Also, this is the homebrew section, so the book doesn't matter much.Here's why BTB(By The Books) Druids cannot use metal armor,
Gaia said so!
Also, LOOK AT THIS.http://www.losapos.com/openpitmines
Yes, strip mines do look like Hell.
Did you look at them?
The Greek underworld is (mostly) not as unpleasant as that of other faiths. The change in ownership to Hades was decided after Cronus (the previous owner) was stripped of all titles and banished from the region (the Romans liked Saturn more than the Greeks liked Cronus). Gaia's rules predate almost all knowledge of nature's workings.
I agree that strip mines are an ecological disaster, but so are monoculture forests, so I fail to see why metal gets shafted so much.
The underworld's badness is mostly depends on if your looking at hades or pluto. plutos wasn't as bad as hades' who was sour over having lost the heavens to zues.
I did keep missing that, sorry.
@Bandw2, after a certain quality level, anything is going to require an industry to acquire. Unless every druid is personally crafting everything they have, i find your point falls flat. Besides, this being fantasy and all, there's no good reason why you couldn't find metals occurring biologically.in first edition when the whole armor business was created, druids ALSO thought magical beasts were magical abominations that should be destroyed, a perversion of nature.
and that's the point. I'd assume most druids live in woods and mostly make stuff themselves.
in case people keep missing this, i'm explaining why the armor thing originally happened, not why it should stay.
yeah now that elementals are within the druids sphere, so should metals...
but that wasn't originally the case.
Not sure how, but I'd make the Kineticist's kinetic blast not confusing about what exactly it is. (Is it a weapon, a spell, a spell-like ability? Is it all of the above? Is it none of the above? Who can say?)
I was trying to make a point that whatever nature god or goddess that was in charge chose to ban metal armor from their druids. They gain all magic dealing with nature and related elements in return for no metal armor. Probably because of the destruction of mature caused by iron mining and metal axes.
If a druid focuses on earth or fire, they would instead lose access to the opposed magic.
You could instead just let Druids wear metal armor. Perhaps they must kill and symbolically skin a humanoid to get it. Somebody asked me if homebrew was like wish fulfilment. If your going down that road, you should also have killer druid robots. If it becomes too easy, it becomes no fun.
if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)
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I was trying to make a point that whatever nature god or goddess that was in charge chose to ban metal armor from their druids. They gain all magic dealing with nature and related elements in return for no metal armor. Probably because of the destruction of mature caused by iron mining and metal axes.
If a druid focuses on earth or fire, they would instead lose access to the opposed magic.
You could instead just let Druids wear metal armor. Perhaps they must kill and symbolically skin a humanoid to get it. Somebody asked me if homebrew was like wish fulfilment. If your going down that road, you should also have killer druid robots. If it becomes too easy, it becomes no fun.
MMmmmmmmm . . . Killer Druid Robots . . . Actually reminds me of a certain Star Trek Old Series episode . . . .
Now that you mention it, I'd also like to see Druids seen as being bound to a philosophy or deity. The default Druid would be bound to the philosophy of Nature, and thus need to be within 1 step of Neutral, and not wear metal armor, but divine-bound Druids would instead need to be within 1 step of the deity's alignment (same as Cleric), would gain proficiency with the deity's favored weapon (same as Cleric), and have allowed armor determined by the deity (this is already sort of done -- Gorum's Druids get a much less long-lasting penalty for wearing metal armor, but currently that seems to be a one-off case). This would also allow corner alignment nature-oriented deities (Erastil for Lawful Good, Desna for Chaotic Good, Lamashtu for Chaotic Evil, and somebodyorother (maybe Zon-Kuthon?) for Lawful Evil) to have Druids of matching alignment.
if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)
Supposedly they were forbidden by their religion from shedding blood, even though they weren't forbidden from killing. Doesn't make any sense, especially for Evil Clerics, but that's what was in 1st Edition (A)D&D, even though the 1st Edition AD&D Player's Handbook has a picture of several clerics, of which one is a Mesoamerican-insipired type who has just cut out a beating heart with a knife dripping blood . . . .
if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)
only ever played fighters and a druid in ADnD :/
Odo of Bayeux is one of the inspirations a figure from the crusades (hence also heavy armor originally) but the idea was that they shouldn't shed blood so blunt weapons were a restriction on them. (i guess internal bleeding doesn't count >.> )
unarcance got it while i was typeing^^
if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)
My guess: If druids were required to be obsessed with BALANCEEEEEEE!!!!!11112, then cleric were required to be obsessed with undead, and blunt weapons are the default weapons of choice against all those brittle undead.
Well, that or they just wrote D&D on drugs. Kinda explains the "druids must wear leafs, lol" thing, too.
considering were talking about Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson yeah probably.
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if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)
Clerics were originally based a bit on various orders of the Middle Ages. They were not forbidden to fight in the Crudades (or against the heathens in general), but rather forbidden to shed blood. So they were allowed to bash someone's head in (cranial fluid didn't count I guess?), but not skewer them. With this basis, clerics could not thus use weapons unless they were bludgeoning. And they hated giant slugs forever after LOL
Another fix that I think it's mandatory by now is this:
- Add firearms proficiencies to the SwashbucklerLook, it's supposed to be a hybrid class of Fighter and Gunslinger, but it doesn't even HAVE automatic proficiency with firearms, which THE feature of gunslingers.
I know that archetypes exist, but still, that's like having a hybrid class between cleric and wizard and not having either spell list :P
So sort of like the playtest Shaman then? Oracle-Witch with the Druid spell list?
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if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)Clerics were originally based a bit on various orders of the Middle Ages. They were not forbidden to fight in the Crudades (or against the heathens in general), but rather forbidden to shed blood. So they were allowed to bash someone's head in (cranial fluid didn't count I guess?), but not skewer them. With this basis, clerics could not thus use weapons unless they were bludgeoning. And they hated giant slugs forever after LOL
Until they discovered massive quantities of salt. After that, many Monasteries were built by the sea.
Disclaimer: if you can't understand the sarcasm, the above is a joke.
if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)Clerics were originally based a bit on various orders of the Middle Ages. They were not forbidden to fight in the Crudades (or against the heathens in general), but rather forbidden to shed blood. So they were allowed to bash someone's head in (cranial fluid didn't count I guess?), but not skewer them. With this basis, clerics could not thus use weapons unless they were bludgeoning. And they hated giant slugs forever after LOLUntil they discovered massive quantities of salt. After that, many Monasteries were built by the sea.
Disclaimer: if you can't understand the sarcasm, the above is a joke.
Don't worry, I took it with a grain of salt:)
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Don't worry, I took it with a grain of salt:)if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)Clerics were originally based a bit on various orders of the Middle Ages. They were not forbidden to fight in the Crudades (or against the heathens in general), but rather forbidden to shed blood. So they were allowed to bash someone's head in (cranial fluid didn't count I guess?), but not skewer them. With this basis, clerics could not thus use weapons unless they were bludgeoning. And they hated giant slugs forever after LOLUntil they discovered massive quantities of salt. After that, many Monasteries were built by the sea.
Disclaimer: if you can't understand the sarcasm, the above is a joke.
Although it's a ridiculous amount of work, I really liked the idea of specialty priests back in AD&D. They had custom weapon and armor proficiency and alternate "turn undead" capabilities (i.e. a specialty priest of an earth god could "turn" air-elemental type creatures),or something to replace that ability.
Here I go on my "why can't we cherry pick" rant again, but it would be fantastic to have a number of abilities under each domain that can alter base class abilities, not just add-on domain powers. That way each priest would be very unique and have different tactics.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorcerers have bloodlines, wizards have schools, and Clerics have domains. Why druids don't have base elements yet is a mystery.
When Paizo comes out with a book, "Mysteries of Nature" that will supersede my suggestions.
Don't worry, I took it with a grain of salt:)if anyone knows why clerics originally could only use blunted weapons you get plus 5 cool points. (later they added gods favored weapons)Clerics were originally based a bit on various orders of the Middle Ages. They were not forbidden to fight in the Crudades (or against the heathens in general), but rather forbidden to shed blood. So they were allowed to bash someone's head in (cranial fluid didn't count I guess?), but not skewer them. With this basis, clerics could not thus use weapons unless they were bludgeoning. And they hated giant slugs forever after LOLUntil they discovered massive quantities of salt. After that, many Monasteries were built by the sea.
Disclaimer: if you can't understand the sarcasm, the above is a joke.
Although it's a ridiculous amount of work, I really liked the idea of specialty priests back in AD&D. They had custom weapon and armor proficiency and alternate "turn undead" capabilities (i.e. a specialty priest of an earth god could "turn" air-elemental type creatures),or something to replace that ability.
Here I go on my "why can't we cherry pick" rant again, but it would be fantastic to have a number of abilities under each domain that can alter base class abilities, not just add-on domain powers. That way each priest would be very unique and have different tactics.
Something like, Clerics start with light armor and simple weapon proficiencies, but if they have the war domain they become proficient with martial weapons and heavy armor, or if they have the Natire domain they become proficient with longbows and short bows?