Does an adamantine golem's slam bypass DR / Adamantine?


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Title.


No, because nothing says they do.

edit: runslikeawelshman is right, they do bypass dr/adamantine because they are treated as epic weapons, not because they are considered adamantine. They would bypass DR, but not hardness.


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"A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

If its slams are "treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction," then they are considered to be the equivalent of a +6 weapon. Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +4 or higher count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Yes, I know this is a fairly liberal interpretation of the text but it doesn't actually say "for the purpose of overcoming EPIC damage reducation". By RAW it implies all forms of damage reduction that could be overcome by an epic weapon are bypassed. After all, we're talking about a CR19 30HD Construct that's made primarily of adamantine. Doesn't it make sense that it can overcome DR that's completely ignored by a level 5 fighter's adamantine dagger?


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...An adamantine golem is described as being made of adamantine. How does this not mean that it can bypass DR/adamantine?

If I had an adamantine sword, and the DM ruled that just because it was made of adamantine didn't mean that it could bypass DR/adamantine, I would ragequit on the spot.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, DR/adamantine is bypassed by weapons or attacks where the material of the weapon or attack is made of adamantine.

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Technically, no it does not.

Like with any other creatures, such as Demons that have (evil) as an attribute, they don't pass DR unless they are specifically noted to have their natural weapons and attacks count as Evil.

If the adamantine golem does not have that language, then, no, it doesn't technically apply. Maybe it's only plated with adamantine?

As for Epic weapons, a +1 Vorpal sword is an Epic weapon, because it's a +6 weapon in PF, but it does NOT have a +4 enhancement bonus, and so does not bypass any other form of DR, including adamantine.

Now, in 3.5, it was equal to a +6 enhancement weapon, but note that in 3.5, a high enhancement bonus did not bypass silver, adamantine, cold iron or alignment based DR like it does in PF.

From a THEMATIC point: Having the golem count as adamantine wouldn't overpower it, but it would mean that it would be quite the castle-crusher, and I don't think that was the intention.

==Aelryinth

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Aelryinth wrote:

If the adamantine golem does not have that language, then, no, it doesn't technically apply. Maybe it's only plated with adamantine?

As for Epic weapons, a +1 Vorpal sword is an Epic weapon, because it's a +6 weapon in PF, but it does NOT have a +4 enhancement bonus, and so does not bypass any other form of DR, including adamantine.

1. I would say even if it is adamantine plated, it would still count. Things like weapon blanch exist that can coat weapons and count as adamantine (although just for one hit).

2. A +1 vorpal certainly would count. If you look at the glossary in the CRB under Damage Reduction, the table which lists which enhancement bonuses bypass which DR, specifically says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent" which implies that special abilities like Vorpal count their equivalent bonus toward overcoming DR

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No, Grumpus.

Enhancements and enhancement equivalents are very different animals. Being equal to a +3 ability does not also gift a weapon with ability to punch silver. Those are explicitly limited to intrinsic enhancements upon a weapon. The 'equivalents' upon there is probably precisely for the Bane special ability, which raises a weapon's enhancement bonus against that foe.

Having a +1 Flaming Freezing Acidic weapon (+4 equiv) does not let you bypass DR/Adamantine.
-
As for the adamantine...I already said, flavor-wise, it wouldn't be wrong to add it.

But in EVERY OTHER INSTANCE where a creature's attacks were meant to count as something that overcame DR, it is listed. The Adamantine Golem didn't get that treatement, so, by the rules, it doesn't apply.

Note that the mithral golem doesn't have the ability to bypass DR/Silver, either, although mithral weapons can.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Technically, no it does not.

Like with any other creatures, such as Demons that have (evil) as an attribute, they don't pass DR unless they are specifically noted to have their natural weapons and attacks count as Evil.

If the adamantine golem does not have that language, then, no, it doesn't technically apply. Maybe it's only plated with adamantine?

As for Epic weapons, a +1 Vorpal sword is an Epic weapon, because it's a +6 weapon in PF, but it does NOT have a +4 enhancement bonus, and so does not bypass any other form of DR, including adamantine.

Now, in 3.5, it was equal to a +6 enhancement weapon, but note that in 3.5, a high enhancement bonus did not bypass silver, adamantine, cold iron or alignment based DR like it does in PF.

From a THEMATIC point: Having the golem count as adamantine wouldn't overpower it, but it would mean that it would be quite the castle-crusher, and I don't think that was the intention.

==Aelryinth

Bypassing Damage Reduction wrote:

Damage reduction may be overcome

by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with
a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the
enhancement
from masterwork quality), certain types of
weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons
imbued with an alignment.

An admantine golem is primarily made of adamantine. It would follow that its natural attacks are also primarily made of adamantine. Also, I don't mind if the CR 19 golem can bypass hardness, especially considering it costs 450000 gold and almost 2 years to craft.


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Does a silver teapot used as an improvised weapon bypass DR/silver? Of course it does.

If an NPC entry lists an adamantine longsword in its inventory but neglects to note that it bypasses DR/adamantine in its attack block does it bypass DR/adamantine? Of course it does.

If an NPC with Throw Anything is serving tea from a silver service but its throw improvised weapon entry doesn't note it does it bypass DR/silver? Of course it does, at least until it runs out of silver tea service components to throw.

Do we really need to be told that an adamantine golem made of adamantine counts as adamantine? It's in the name. It's in the monster description. Is our reading comprehension that bad? Apparently in some cases it is.

A golem or construct made of a material is made of that material. How is this difficult?

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A golem is not a weapon, it is a creature. So none of your arguments there apply, Atarlost.

Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block. There are PLENTY of evil creatures. Not all of them bypass DR/Evil, despite being evil.

As I said...thematically, it's fine, although it makes them a castle crusher (because if you let them bypass DR because they are 'made of' adamantine, they should also bypass hardness, right?).

But, BY THE RULES, the answer is no, they do not, because it is not in their stat block as a creature. If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.

Soooo...just put adamantine gauntlets on your golem and solve the problem.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

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Aelryinth wrote:
Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block.

So... claw attacks do not bypass DR/S, slam attacks do not bypass DR/B, and bite attacks do not bypass DR/P?

I'm thinking you're wrong on this.

Quote:
If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.

If adamantine were meant to count as adamantine it would be listed as such? Beyond... actually being listed as, you know... adamantine?

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:

No, Grumpus.

Enhancements and enhancement equivalents are very different animals. Being equal to a +3 ability does not also gift a weapon with ability to punch silver. Those are explicitly limited to intrinsic enhancements upon a weapon. The 'equivalents' upon there is probably...

I think we can stop reading here as it's plain the rules aren't clear which it means. The only other thing that could possibly give any insight into this is DR/epic which implies it's the total sum of whatever enchantments/enhancements are on the weapon. While I don't know what the answer is supposed to be, it's plain enough that there's evidence either way.


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The body is strong!! But the fists are soft, like a warm caress of the cheek.

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Aelryinth wrote:

No, Grumpus.

Enhancements and enhancement equivalents are very different animals. Being equal to a +3 ability does not also gift a weapon with ability to punch silver. Those are explicitly limited to intrinsic enhancements upon a weapon. The 'equivalents' upon there is probably precisely for the Bane special ability, which raises a weapon's enhancement bonus against that foe.

Having a +1 Flaming Freezing Acidic weapon (+4 equiv) does not let you bypass DR/Adamantine.
-

Huh, I never interpreted it that way, but I see your point now.

I guess the Magus in the Runelords campaign I GM just got weaker, so theres that.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block.

So... claw attacks do not bypass DR/S, slam attacks do not bypass DR/B, and bite attacks do not bypass DR/P?

I'm thinking you're wrong on this.

Quote:
If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.
If adamantine were meant to count as adamantine it would be listed as such? Beyond... actually being listed as, you know... adamantine?

Claws and slams are defined as natural attacks with damage types enumerated in the bestiaries and, as such, bypass the correct DR types.

Aelryinth is being pretty pedantic, but I think he is entirely correct. I would be surprised if most people ruled that way in game though.


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Aelryinth wrote:

A golem is not a weapon, it is a creature. So none of your arguments there apply, Atarlost.

Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block. There are PLENTY of evil creatures. Not all of them bypass DR/Evil, despite being evil.

As I said...thematically, it's fine, although it makes them a castle crusher (because if you let them bypass DR because they are 'made of' adamantine, they should also bypass hardness, right?).

But, BY THE RULES, the answer is no, they do not, because it is not in their stat block as a creature. If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.

Soooo...just put adamantine gauntlets on your golem and solve the problem.

==Aelryinth

You keep using the example of creatures with the evil subtype not counting their natural attacks as evil unless it says it does. But that is comparing apples and oranges. Adamantine is not a type or subtype of the golem. It is the physical stuff that the golem is made of. Things are not made out of evil. Evil doesn't exist on the list of special materials. So in order to tell when something qualifies for the evil quality it has to be called out.

Adamantine is a special material. Unlike intangible qualities like evil and good where you must possess an unobservable aura or essence of some kind to bypass DR, special materials grant the ability to bypass DR to whatever is made from them.


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Aelryinth wrote:
From a THEMATIC point: Having the golem count as adamantine wouldn't overpower it, but it would mean that it would be quite the castle-crusher, and I don't think that was the intention.

I dunno, an equal CR Wizard can like, create the universe, so I don't really see this golem crushing a castle to be all that bad...


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Should a creature made of adamantine bypass DR/adamantine? I think the answer is obviously yes, but by RAW, it appears the answer is no.

This is why overly codified rules can be as bad/worse than vague rules.


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Tammy's made of evil. Pure evil.

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claudekennilol wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

No, Grumpus.

Enhancements and enhancement equivalents are very different animals. Being equal to a +3 ability does not also gift a weapon with ability to punch silver. Those are explicitly limited to intrinsic enhancements upon a weapon. The 'equivalents' upon there is probably...

I think we can stop reading here as it's plain the rules aren't clear which it means. The only other thing that could possibly give any insight into this is DR/epic which implies it's the total sum of whatever enchantments/enhancements are on the weapon. While I don't know what the answer is supposed to be, it's plain enough that there's evidence either way.

The bestiary rules he's referring to are also 3.5.

If you go read down a bit further, it lists Epic DR at +6 Enhancement bonus, not Enhancement equivalent. I think they updated the listing for either Wrath of Righteous AP, or one of the more recent beastiaries.

oldskool, an Evil outsider is basically an incarnation of the power of the plane of its alignment...it IS made of Evil. That's why they will radiate evil even if you shove a Helm of Opposite Alignment on them.

So, yeah, the example is SPOT ON. Remember, I'm not saying it's not APPROPRIATE for an Adamantine Golem to do the bypass...I'm saying that, BY THE RULES, it doesn't.

Also, I made a deliberate point...a Golem is a creature, not a weapon. Rules for weapons do NOT automatically apply to creatures or their natural attacks, while you are inferring that they do.

CB Dunk, Beopere hinted at it, but if you look in the beastiaries, Claw, Bite and Slam attacks DO have damage types assigned to them. Claw attacks do slash/pierce, Bite attacks do slash/pierce/blud, and slam attacks do bludgeon. So, a bad example for you to use.

==Aelryinth


OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

A golem is not a weapon, it is a creature. So none of your arguments there apply, Atarlost.

Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block. There are PLENTY of evil creatures. Not all of them bypass DR/Evil, despite being evil.

As I said...thematically, it's fine, although it makes them a castle crusher (because if you let them bypass DR because they are 'made of' adamantine, they should also bypass hardness, right?).

But, BY THE RULES, the answer is no, they do not, because it is not in their stat block as a creature. If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.

Soooo...just put adamantine gauntlets on your golem and solve the problem.

==Aelryinth

You keep using the example of creatures with the evil subtype not counting their natural attacks as evil unless it says it does. But that is comparing apples and oranges. Adamantine is not a type or subtype of the golem. It is the physical stuff that the golem is made of. Things are not made out of evil. Evil doesn't exist on the list of special materials. So in order to tell when something qualifies for the evil quality it has to be called out.

Adamantine is a special material. Unlike intangible qualities like evil and good where you must possess an unobservable aura or essence of some kind to bypass DR, special materials grant the ability to bypass DR to whatever is made from them.

Adamantine Golems aren't made exclusively of Adamantine, though. They're made of "more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals worth a total of 100,000 gp."


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Creatures with the evil subtype do bypass DR/evil, actually.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

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Ah, reading the full text of the creature we are talking about. Who would've thunk?

==Aelryinth

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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Creatures with the evil subtype do bypass DR/evil, actually.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

That's a late addition to the universal monster rules, but still adds to further defining the nature of the rules. Without a rule explicitly stating they gain DR for their attacks, creatures don't get them.

And alignment subtypes DO have that rule. Heck, they even repeat it for the demon and devil subtypes, again!

There's probably some other creatures that have the fact they overcome DR spilled out (I think a couple digging creatures have their attacks count as adamantine or something), but I can't think of any names off the top of my head.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Creatures with the evil subtype do bypass DR/evil, actually.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

That's a late addition to the universal monster rules, but still adds to further defining the nature of the rules. Without a rule explicitly stating they gain DR for their attacks, creatures don't get them.

==Aelryinth

Not a late edition. Been in the rules since 2009.

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Universal monster rules started with 3.5 and the OGL thereby. Paizo updated them several times. So, it's a late addition. You can tell because they still talk about the DR effect in the older demon entries, and such things aren't in the 3.5 Demon/Devil subtypes.

So, it was first in the individual entries, then Paizo updated it to the race subtypes, and then just made it a universal rule to save time.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

Universal monster rules started with 3.5 and the OGL thereby. Paizo updated them several times. So, it's a late addition. You can tell because they still talk about the DR effect in the older demon entries, and such things aren't in the 3.5 Demon/Devil subtypes.

So, it was first in the individual entries, then Paizo updated it to the race subtypes, and then just made it a universal rule to save time.

==Aelryinth

Every copy of 3.5 Monster Manual I have read has had the language that creatures with an alignment subtype can overcome that type of DR with natural weapons and weapons they wield. I even pulled up a pdf of what says is a first printing of 3.5 Monster Manual 1 and it has that language, so again no, it is not a late edition. Unless I remembered this wrong or the PDF I am looking at is wrong then it has always been this way. I'll look for my physical copy of it(Or some kind board member has theirs around and can look it up).

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Aelryinth wrote:

Universal monster rules started with 3.5 and the OGL thereby. Paizo updated them several times. So, it's a late addition. You can tell because they still talk about the DR effect in the older demon entries, and such things aren't in the 3.5 Demon/Devil subtypes.

So, it was first in the individual entries, then Paizo updated it to the race subtypes, and then just made it a universal rule to save time.

==Aelryinth

CrystalSpellblade is right. In 3.5, the Evil subtype conferred the ability to bypass DR/evil

d20srd wrote:
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

In 3.0, IIRC, they didn't really have alignment DR. Devils and whatnot had DR/+1, DR/+2, etc. They did however bypass whatever DR they innately possessed.

3.0 srd wrote:
For purposes of harming other creatures with damage reduction, a creature’s natural weapons count as weapons of the type that can ignore its own innate damage reduction. The amount of damage reduction is irrelevant.

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Welllllll, I looked at the 3.5 OGL in reference to my points above :) The classic demons have the language, demon and devil subtypes don't.

They DO list it as an ability under the particular individual subtype for outsiders (Evil, Lawful, Good, etc). But it's not a 'universal ability' in 3.5, at least going by the SRD.

So, they modified it somewhere along the way! Which is hardly a bad thing. Seriously, same bloody rule, why repeat it four times.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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It's also mentioned in damage reduction, in the special abilities section.

Monsters with DR/magic count their attacks as magic, monsters with alignment subtypes count their attacks as that alignment.

d20srd wrote:

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.


Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

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Gah, how many different places do you have to look to find correct references!

I give. It's still not in the demon subtype for 3.5, tho!

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?

It isn't a copout. I thought the think was %100 adamantine. So now I think it is just called an adamatine golem, but it not even 10% admantine.

[qoute]A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals

That 4000 pounds is the combination of all of those metals. It is not even 4000 pounds of only adamantine.

It probably weights over 10000 pounds.

That means the rest of it is just regular metal. I see no reason to give it a pass by the rules or even for flavor reasons.

The flavor text might say most worlds don't have enough adamantine to build one of them, but I am sure no actual math was done. Even, so with the adamantine taking up less than what might be 15% of its body there is no bypassing DR.

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There's a big difference between an alignment and a material. Someone evil is not necessarily EVIL as regards to the alignment of the attack. Silver is silver no matter what you do with it.

A cold iron belt buckle will overcome DR/Cold Iron. The rules do assume most GM's make use of common sense otherwise rulebooks would be ten times the size and come with thousands of cross references.


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On general principles, I assume that a [Material] creature is primarily made up of that material (enough to count as such for all relevant purposes). A Silver Golem is mainly silver. A Flesh Golem is mainly flesh. And yes, an Adamantine Golem is mainly Adamantine. XD


Mark Thomas 66 wrote:

There's a big difference between an alignment and a material. Someone evil is not necessarily EVIL as regards to the alignment of the attack. Silver is silver no matter what you do with it.

A cold iron belt buckle will overcome DR/Cold Iron. The rules do assume most GM's make use of common sense otherwise rulebooks would be ten times the size and come with thousands of cross references.

All it would take for {material} golems to penetrate DR/{material} is a single line in the Golem entry. That is hardly "ten times the size".


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wraithstrike wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?

It isn't a copout. I thought the think was %100 adamantine. So now I think it is just called an adamatine golem, but it not even 10% admantine.

[qoute]A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals

That 4000 pounds is the combination of all of those metals. It is not even 4000 pounds of only adamantine.

It probably weights over 10000 pounds.

That means the rest of it is just regular metal. I see no reason to give it a pass by the rules or even for flavor reasons.

The flavor text might say most worlds don't have enough adamantine to build one of them, but I am sure no actual math was done. Even, so with the adamantine taking up less than what might be 15% of its body there is no bypassing DR.

I'm not sure why what percentage of it is adamantine matters.

This thing requires a Cl 20 caster to create. It strains my incredulity that someone who has survived enough to reach that level would really be enough of a moron to go "My masterpiece is complete! An adamantine golem! WITH SOFT GOLDEN HANDS MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Considering it supposedly requires enough Adamantine that it takes an ENTIRE PLANET'S SUPPLY to build that seems like a hilariously stupid oversight when you've taken the time to beg, borrow, and steal every scrap of raw ore and item made of Adamantine on your entire planet (or visit the Plane of Earth and mine there, hoping the terrain and inhabitants don't murder you).

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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wraithstrike wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?

It isn't a copout. I thought the think was %100 adamantine. So now I think it is just called an adamatine golem, but it not even 10% admantine.

Quote:
A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals

That 4000 pounds is the combination of all of those metals. It is not even 4000 pounds of only adamantine.

It probably weights over 10000 pounds.

That means the rest of it is just regular metal. I see no reason to give it a pass by the rules or even for flavor reasons.

The flavor text might say most worlds don't have enough adamantine to build one of them, but I am sure no actual math was done. Even, so with the adamantine taking up less than what might be 15% of its body there is no bypassing DR.

10,000 lbs seems high. Clockwork leviathans are on the high end of Huge (25 ft long) and they only weigh 6,000 lbs. I can easily see a creature closer to humanoid proportions, and animated by magic rather than bulky gears an whatnot, coming in closer to two tons.

And even if its not entirely composed of adamantine, its the business end that counts, right? An adamantine tipped arrow is mostly wood after all.

Huge adamantine fullplate only weighs 250 lbs, which means there's enough adamantine in that 4000 pounds to cover the golem head to toe.


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I decided to do some poking around on random science-y websites to get an idea of this. What follows is a vague babble based on the notes I found, and if there are any inaccuracies, I do ask you forgive me.

Golems are, roughly, man-shaped[citation needed]. Though, naturally, they tend to be of sizes that far exceed that of ordinary men.

But let's tackle this one step at a time.

The average human male weighs, in the Pathfinder universe, 140 pounds. This man is roughly the same density of water. If this man were made of iron, we multiply by iron's density compared to water (searches tells me 7.87) to get the metal man's weight. This gets us a metal man of 1101.8 pounds.

There is no data for how much adamantine weighs, but as it does not actually increase how much armor or weapons weigh, we can for the sake of brevity assume it's about as heavy as iron.

Now, the adamantine golem isn't man-sized. It's Huge, rather than Medium. So we need to increase the metal man's size a little. Following the square-cube law, every time we double the golem's size in all dimensions, we multiply its weight by 8. So a Large-sized metal man weighs 8814.4 pounds.

But this still isn't Huge, so we increase it again, doubling his dimentions and multiplying his weight by 8 again. This gets us to 70,515.2 pounds.

This all assumes an adamantine golem that is the same proportion among Huge-sized creatures as our average man is among Medium-sized creatures. It might not be entirely human-shaped, but this seems to be a good ballpark estimate for how much an adamantine golem weighs.


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Except we know it weighs 4000 lbs. Because it's made of 4000 lbs of metal.


GM Rednal wrote:
On general principles, I assume that a [Material] creature is primarily made up of that material (enough to count as such for all relevant purposes). A Silver Golem is mainly silver. A Flesh Golem is mainly flesh. And yes, an Adamantine Golem is mainly Adamantine. XD

No, it's not.

Even if the other 100000gp of other material is common iron that is still vastly more in weight than the adamantine that is present.

100000gp=1000000sp

1sp=1pound of common iron.

More than likely steel(which has no listed priced) and is more per pound than iron is used, and that still vastly outstrips the amount of adamantine.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It states it is made of more than 4,000 lbs of metal. 70,000 is indeed more than 4,000.

The description only strictly tells us it is not lighter than 4,000 pounds. And, quite honestly, I do not see how a golem of that size possibly could be lighter than that, even if it were completely hollow inside.


Sundakan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?

It isn't a copout. I thought the think was %100 adamantine. So now I think it is just called an adamatine golem, but it not even 10% admantine.

[qoute]A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals

That 4000 pounds is the combination of all of those metals. It is not even 4000 pounds of only adamantine.

It probably weights over 10000 pounds.

That means the rest of it is just regular metal. I see no reason to give it a pass by the rules or even for flavor reasons.

The flavor text might say most worlds don't have enough adamantine to build one of them, but I am sure no actual math was done. Even, so with the adamantine taking up less than what might be 15% of its body there is no bypassing DR.

I'm not sure why what percentage of it is adamantine matters.

This thing requires a Cl 20 caster to create. It strains my incredulity that someone who has survived enough to reach that level would really be enough of a moron to go "My masterpiece is complete! An adamantine golem! WITH SOFT GOLDEN HANDS MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Considering it supposedly requires enough Adamantine that it takes an ENTIRE PLANET'S SUPPLY to build that seems like a hilariously stupid oversight when you've taken the time to beg, borrow, and steal every scrap of raw ore and item made of...

It matters because the argument was that the golem being mostly made of adamantine was the argument presented, and that argument is false.

It also matters because I seriously doubt that an entire planet has less than a few thousand(lets say 3000) pounds of adamantine. If that were true then adamantine would cost more than it does.

Basically the flavor text is not making sense so I can choose to believe there is really less than 3000 pounds of adamantine or I can choose to believe the market sells it at a very cheap price.

I will go with someone didn't do the math before writing that entry.

So by flavor and by rules it is not logical for it to bypass the DR.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Back on topic the adamantine golem does not pass adamantine based DR. I was about to houserule it for my own games, but then I saw that it was made out of a combination of metals, and not just adamantine.

Eh, that feels like a cop out. It's not a precious metals golem, it's an adamantine golem. It requires more than a single planet's worth of adamantine to build. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's predominantly adamantine :)

Back off topic, here's a question along similar lines:

Do a glass golem's attacks bypass a fext's DR/glass?

It isn't a copout. I thought the think was %100 adamantine. So now I think it is just called an adamatine golem, but it not even 10% admantine.

Quote:
A adamantine golem's body is made of more than 4,000 pounds of adamantine, mithral, gold, platinum, and other metals

That 4000 pounds is the combination of all of those metals. It is not even 4000 pounds of only adamantine.

It probably weights over 10000 pounds.

That means the rest of it is just regular metal. I see no reason to give it a pass by the rules or even for flavor reasons.

The flavor text might say most worlds don't have enough adamantine to build one of them, but I am sure no actual math was done. Even, so with the adamantine taking up less than what might be 15% of its body there is no bypassing DR.

10,000 lbs seems high. Clockwork leviathans are on the high end of Huge (25 ft long) and they only weigh 6,000 lbs. I can easily see a creature closer to humanoid proportions, and animated by magic rather than bulky gears an whatnot, coming in closer to two tons.

And even if its not entirely composed of adamantine, its the business end that counts, right? An adamantine tipped arrow is mostly wood after all.

Huge adamantine fullplate only weighs 250 lbs, which means there's enough adamantine in that 4000 pounds to cover the golem head to toe.

Having the the fist be made of adamantine would make it logical, but its not stated anywhere.

Here is what I think should have happened

"Even though the admantine golem is not entirely made of adamantine it's natural weapons still overcome DR and hardness as if they were a manufactured admantine weapon."

That nonsense about there only being enough for one golem on a planet(Golarion) should also have never been printed.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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wraithstrike wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
On general principles, I assume that a [Material] creature is primarily made up of that material (enough to count as such for all relevant purposes). A Silver Golem is mainly silver. A Flesh Golem is mainly flesh. And yes, an Adamantine Golem is mainly Adamantine. XD

No, it's not.

Even if the other 100000gp of other material is common iron that is still vastly more in weight than the adamantine that is present.

100000gp=1000000sp

1sp=1pound of common iron.

More than likely steel(which has no listed priced) and is more per pound than iron is used, and that still vastly outstrips the amount of adamantine.

But it's not 4000 lbs of metals plus 100,000 gp of other stuff. It's 4000 lbs of metals worth 100,000. Any iron or steel used in the construction is already included in that 4,000 pounds.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
That nonsense about there only being enough for one golem on a planet(Golarion) should also have never been printed.

That's fine, though, I'm sure you can probably mine some from the elemental plane of earth. It has all sorts of mineral deposits.

I mean, if you're of the level where you honestly have the other resources to create such a golem, a few planar jaunts should be easy, right?


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
But it's not 4000 lbs of metals plus 100,000 gp of other stuff. It's 4000 lbs of metals worth 100,000. Any iron or steel used in the construction is already included in that 4,000 pounds.

This causes some interesting thoughts, especially with my original weighing in on the thread.

Raw Adamantine is priced at 300gp a pound. To get 4,000 pounds that is its minimum weight would cost 1,200,000gp. Much much over our budget, so obviously the golem can't be anywhere close to pure adamantine.

How much adamantine does 100,000gp get you? 333. Let's say it's just 300, so we have 10,000gp left to spend on other materials.

To get some arbitrary values, our hypothetical adamantine golem has:
-300 pounds of adamantine (90,000gp)
-9 pounds of mithral (4,500gp)
-9 pounds of platinum (4,500gp)
-10 pounds of gold (500gp)
-3670 pounds of iron (367gp)
-2 pounds of "other metals" to make up that last 133gp.

Our mighty adamantine golem is, at most, only 7.5% adamantine! I'm not sure how it can possibly be called that, when you have to fill in nearly 90% of it with mundane iron. Maybe just its outer shell?

This is an even more bizarre proposition if we consider my previous 70,000lb ballpark. 300 pounds of adamantine to a 70,000lb frame would make up a mere 0.4% of its body. That's more of a metal impurity than anything else.

Long story short... I'm pretty sure Rule of Cool is in full swing here and the folks at Paizo didn't want to inject our fun little fantasy game with tricky scientific data, so they just gave players vague numbers.

I'm not complaining about Paizo, mind, I think it's perfectly reasonable of them to focus on being a fantasy game developer rather than trying to inject too much realism. I mean, it's a universe where you can conjure lightning bolts and massive fireballs out of thin air, so scientific realism left Golarion ages ago.


wraithstrike wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
On general principles, I assume that a [Material] creature is primarily made up of that material (enough to count as such for all relevant purposes). A Silver Golem is mainly silver. A Flesh Golem is mainly flesh. And yes, an Adamantine Golem is mainly Adamantine. XD

No, it's not.

Even if the other 100000gp of other material is common iron that is still vastly more in weight than the adamantine that is present.

100000gp=1000000sp

1sp=1pound of common iron.

More than likely steel(which has no listed priced) and is more per pound than iron is used, and that still vastly outstrips the amount of adamantine.

If there is only a small portion of the golem actually made of Adamantine... do you let attacks aim for the steel/Iron/Gem portions?

Cause seriously...if even the hands aren't adamantine... I'm certainly not going to AIM for part with the heaviest DR... I'll aim for the weak jointy parts.

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