Does an adamantine golem's slam bypass DR / Adamantine?


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Let's flip the question around.

What millesimal fineness of a special material is required to bypass the appropriate DR?

and

What is the millesimal fineness of adamantine for an adamantine golem's body part used in their slam?

with the followup questions of:

Are Adamantine Golems really Adamantine Golems?

and

Can you take actions when you're dead?

or

Can I stay standing when I magically fall asleep?


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Aelryinth wrote:
If I attack you with a weapon made of mithril, adamantine, gold, and steel, does it overcome your DR/Adamantine? Your DR/Silver?

Whichever is on the surface, just as with weapon blanches. Hint: if the surface wasn't adamantine the Adamantine golem woundn't be called an adamantine golem and wouldn't have more DR than the mithril golem.

Aelryinth wrote:
The answer is...no, it does not. YOu need a weapon made of adamantine to bypass DR/Adamantine.

No you don't.

CRB p.154 first paragraph wrote:
Weapons and armor can be crafted of materials that possess innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.
Aelryinth wrote:

For instance, another counter-example: A giant picks up the fighter in adamantine armor and starts clubbing you with your friend. Should HE get to bypass DR/Adamantine, as well? The armor is ALL adamantine, after all!!

The answer is no, he's hitting you with a fighter in armor, and fighters in adamantine armor are not adamantine weapons, and do not bypass DR/Adamantine (probably because their bones break).

Where do you get this idea? Of course an improvised weapon with striking surfaces of a special material counts as that special material. The flexibility of the body within the armor means nothing, or would you claim that adamantine flails do not penetrate DR/adamantine or ignore hardness? And what's your excuse for a gnome in mithril armor being used to bypass DR/silver?

Your "counter" example is nothing of the sort.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A weapon composed of 4 different materials is not a weapon of that material. It's not even a majority composed. It wouldn't fall under the rules for a special materials weapon, and doesn't even have a 'most prevelent' material over 50%. At the very most, you could call it a cheesy attempt to have all material DR at once, and failing in that aspect, cause rules.
The adamantine golem falls right into this category.
And before you point it out...I use majority because it's the only logical way to answer it. Otherwise a weapon 10% cold iron and 90% steel counts as cold iron. Which it patently would not. A weapon with 3% coating of silver would count as silver. Nope to that, too.

A fighter in adamantine armor pummeling you is not an adamantine weapon, nor is that weapon primarily composed of adamantine. Most of that weapon is meat and bone. 'Striking surface' is nowhere referenced in the rules - where are you digging that out of? The weapon has to be made of the special material. Your explanation with the flail I assume is trying to bring the 'shaft' of the weapon, which is usually wood, into play. This goes against you both ways...the handle of the weapon is not held to the standards of the weapon, and/or to actually be an adamantine weapon and get the benefits thereof for hardness and HP, you'd have to replace the handle, too (i.e. your axe is as easy to sunder as the wooden handle, not the axe-head).

Alchemy blanches are alchemy blanches, not weapons. They get their power from being temporary alchemical effects, i.e. minor magic. That you are somehow conflating their temporary effects as being shared as permanent effects of special materials just makes me goggle. Next you're going to be saying that dumping holy water on a blade makes it able to hit incorporeal undead, because holy water can.

Your arguments REALLY don't hold water there, Atar.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

A golem is not a weapon, it is a creature. So none of your arguments there apply, Atarlost.

Creatures don't bypass DR unless it is specifically called out in their stat block. There are PLENTY of evil creatures. Not all of them bypass DR/Evil, despite being evil.

As I said...thematically, it's fine, although it makes them a castle crusher (because if you let them bypass DR because they are 'made of' adamantine, they should also bypass hardness, right?).

But, BY THE RULES, the answer is no, they do not, because it is not in their stat block as a creature. If they were meant to count as adamantine, it would be listed as such.

Soooo...just put adamantine gauntlets on your golem and solve the problem.

==Aelryinth

Pedantic Reading > Common Sense, Context, or the English Language.

An item called out at being constructed from a specific material bypasses the DR for that material even if the item is not listed in the weapon table and lacks a specific notation that it bypasses DR.

Examples found in Pathfinder include the above listed silver tea service, mithral frying pans and admantine crowbars. All will bypass the appropriate DR even though they do not specifically notate DR is bypassed.

Dark Archive

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so i can take the individual pieces of adamantine full plate and use them as an improvised weapon to bypass DR but once i put a person in that full plate and start swinging that person around as an improvised weapon it no longer counts as adamantine for bypassing DR even though the striking surface and what you are actually getting hit with has not changed at all.


Shadowlords wrote:
so i can take the individual pieces of adamantine full plate and use them as an improvised weapon to bypass DR but once i put a person in that full plate and start swinging that person around as an improvised weapon it no longer counts as adamantine for bypassing DR even though the striking surface and what you are actually getting hit with has not changed at all.

(Apart from there being MORE weight and force behind the blows. , that is ...


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Quote:
A weapon composed of 4 different materials is not a weapon of that material. It's not even a majority composed. It wouldn't fall under the rules for a special materials weapon, and doesn't even have a 'most prevelent' material over 50%

An adamantine arrow consists of at least three materials (shaft, fleching, head) and is certainly not more than 50% of the material involved, yet manages to pierce DR just fine.

Moreover, where have we decided that the golem is less than 50% adamantine? The golem's description merely states that it's made up of a number of materials and never specifies composition at all.

I know someone did the math earlier, but said math was based on a lot of supposition rather than hard rules. Now, while it's fine to do that, it seems disingenuous to try to apply strict RAW to one thing and then handwave another.


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Personally, I thought of the other metals as being used mainly for decoration - for example, a bit of gold plating near some of the joints, or used to create an artistic 'face' on the golem's head.

...

I feel like some people have suggested that if an adamantine sword had gold decorations by the guard, it would no longer be an adamantine sword and thus could not cut through the appropriate DR, etc.

In which case... uh, you can interpret the rules that way if you want to, I guess, but I'm going to stick with a more common-sense interpretation. XD


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I see a lot of references to 3.x rules. I thought this was in "Pathfinder RPG"?
That being said:

Golem, Adamantine said wrote:
Made using one of the hardest and most precious substances... The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources...

So @Aelryinth, you are arguing that ALL OF THE ADAMANTINE OF A PLANET would not overcome DR/Adamantine?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Snowlilly wrote:

Pedantic Reading > Common Sense, Context, or the English Language.

An item called out at being constructed from a specific material bypasses the DR for that material even if the item is not listed in the weapon table and lacks a specific notation that it bypasses DR.

Examples found in Pathfinder include the above listed silver tea service, mithral frying pans and admantine crowbars. All will bypass the appropriate DR even though they do not specifically notate DR is bypassed.

...unless you animate them. Then the adamantine crowbar that was perfectly capable of bypassing DR/hardness a minute ago is now a creature, not an object, and therefore it's composition is irrelevant.

Because that makes perfect sense, amiright? :D


Slithery D wrote:

I wish to note that the DR/epic means that they can defeat DR/adamantine still doesn't resolve whether they can defeat hardness. They'd need an actual adamantine effect for that.

phantom1592 wrote:


However, even a thin coat of adamantine should still bypass DR/Adamantine the way that silver blanch on a sword does.
I don't agree with this. I see silver and cold iron (and most other material DRs) as an "allergy" type of DR where a coating makes sense, but adamantine seems pretty clearly a hardness issue that has to be overcome by something physically robust enough to break through.

Swoosh beat me to it... Ammunition can be Adamantine and get through DR. A single arrow head... Sling bolt... shurikan... Any of these can be made of Adamantine and get through DR.

Therefore I'm fairly confident in the interpretation that 1) you do not 'physically robustness' to break through things... and 2) Regardless of whatever materials the golem uses for filler... there is at LEAST an arrowhead's worth of Adamantine in the Adamantine golem's fist...


cannon golem wrote:
Alloyed (Ex) A cannon golem's slam and cannon attacks count as adamantine, cold iron, and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
dossenus wrote:

Devastating Maw (Ex) A dossenus' bite attack counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.

Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Your game, rule 0 applies.
Rules forum, rule 0 is meaningless.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

RDM42 wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:
so i can take the individual pieces of adamantine full plate and use them as an improvised weapon to bypass DR but once i put a person in that full plate and start swinging that person around as an improvised weapon it no longer counts as adamantine for bypassing DR even though the striking surface and what you are actually getting hit with has not changed at all.
(Apart from there being MORE weight and force behind the blows. , that is ...

exactly. Because a silver tea set, a mithril BP and an adamantine crowbar are all made of special materials and are objects that can be made into improvised weapons.

A human fighter in adamantine armor is a mostly flesh and bone weapon with some metal wrapped around him. He's not an adamantine weapon by ANY stretch of the imagination.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Gyromancer wrote:

I see a lot of references to 3.x rules. I thought this was in "Pathfinder RPG"?

That being said:
Golem, Adamantine said wrote:
Made using one of the hardest and most precious substances... The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources...
So @Aelryinth, you are arguing that ALL OF THE ADAMANTINE OF A PLANET would not overcome DR/Adamantine?

Yes. What does quantity of adamantine have to do with it being a weapon? I could make a CANNON out of a world's worth of adamantine, that doesn't mean it punches DR adamantine.

Not a thing. I believe the golem's adamantine is basically used for the skeleton, if any, and to provide it its natural armor. Adamantine armor isn't a weapon until you take it off and hit someone with it.

Which just leads me back to saying, equip your golem with adamantine guantlets, problem solved.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

swoosh wrote:
Quote:
A weapon composed of 4 different materials is not a weapon of that material. It's not even a majority composed. It wouldn't fall under the rules for a special materials weapon, and doesn't even have a 'most prevelent' material over 50%

An adamantine arrow consists of at least three materials (shaft, fleching, head) and is certainly not more than 50% of the material involved, yet manages to pierce DR just fine.

Moreover, where have we decided that the golem is less than 50% adamantine? The golem's description merely states that it's made up of a number of materials and never specifies composition at all.

I know someone did the math earlier, but said math was based on a lot of supposition rather than hard rules. Now, while it's fine to do that, it seems disingenuous to try to apply strict RAW to one thing and then handwave another.

Yet, by the rule invoked above, if you made the arrow out of blackwood and adamantine, it would be a blackwood arrow, because the blackwood part dominates and is a special material?

If you're getting upset about me ignoring 'striking surface', it's because that means you can 'coat' something with adamantine, and there's your striking 'surface'. The part of the weapon that has to be the special material has to be the special material, not just a coating on it. (Blanches have their own rules, and are short term).

Hitting someone with a person in adamantine armor is not hitting someone with a weapon. The armor is ONLY held together by the flesh and bone inside. It will bend and flex and distort because the flesh and bone inside will do so for the various parts...i.e. even if the armor doesn't bend or break, the flesh and bones will.
People as a part of weapons are NOT good weapons.
Now, if you bashed someone with the adamantine gauntlets, or headbutted them with the helm, you are using them properly as improvised weapons. But smashing someone's chest into them won't affect the adamantine bp, except cave it into the chest of the guy wearing it. Certainly not keep it hard and inflexible like an adamantine weapon has to be. Even smacking someone with the head of someone in an adamantine helm is very different from headbutting them...it's going to hit, and the man's neck is going to give way, not stay hard and rigid like a headbutt does.
People aren't weapons. And armor pieces may be rigid, but armor suits are not, and make lousy weapons thereby.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

Pedantic Reading > Common Sense, Context, or the English Language.

An item called out at being constructed from a specific material bypasses the DR for that material even if the item is not listed in the weapon table and lacks a specific notation that it bypasses DR.

Examples found in Pathfinder include the above listed silver tea service, mithral frying pans and admantine crowbars. All will bypass the appropriate DR even though they do not specifically notate DR is bypassed.

...unless you animate them. Then the adamantine crowbar that was perfectly capable of bypassing DR/hardness a minute ago is now a creature, not an object, and therefore it's composition is irrelevant.

Because that makes perfect sense, amiright? :D

An animated crowbar is still an object, uses the hardness rules, and can be targeted by effects that target objects. Are you trying to ignore other rules to not make a point, here?

They have what the spell gives, and the lose what the spell takes away. No more, no less.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

phantom1592 wrote:
Slithery D wrote:

I wish to note that the DR/epic means that they can defeat DR/adamantine still doesn't resolve whether they can defeat hardness. They'd need an actual adamantine effect for that.

phantom1592 wrote:


However, even a thin coat of adamantine should still bypass DR/Adamantine the way that silver blanch on a sword does.
I don't agree with this. I see silver and cold iron (and most other material DRs) as an "allergy" type of DR where a coating makes sense, but adamantine seems pretty clearly a hardness issue that has to be overcome by something physically robust enough to break through.

Swoosh beat me to it... Ammunition can be Adamantine and get through DR. A single arrow head... Sling bolt... shurikan... Any of these can be made of Adamantine and get through DR.

Therefore I'm fairly confident in the interpretation that 1) you do not 'physically robustness' to break through things... and 2) Regardless of whatever materials the golem uses for filler... there is at LEAST an arrowhead's worth of Adamantine in the Adamantine golem's fist...

The fist would have to be made of adamantine, i.e. the entire weapon hitting you.

a tiny little shard of admatine in the fist isn't going to do squat, because damage comes from teh entire fist, not a tiny part of it, and from the mass behind the impact, not just the thing coating.

Shurikens and arrowheads do damage because they are hard enough to punch the DR, and for arrowheads, having the extra mass behind them to burrow in deeper...the entire effective weapon, in both cases, is adamantine, because what is BEHIND the arrowhead is irrelevant.

But neither of them just 'coats the striking surface.' Just, ugh. Who thought that stuff up?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

dragonhunterq wrote:
cannon golem wrote:
Alloyed (Ex) A cannon golem's slam and cannon attacks count as adamantine, cold iron, and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
dossenus wrote:

Devastating Maw (Ex) A dossenus' bite attack counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.

Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Your game, rule 0 applies.
Rules forum, rule 0 is meaningless.

Very good. Thank you.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Aelryinth wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
cannon golem wrote:
Alloyed (Ex) A cannon golem's slam and cannon attacks count as adamantine, cold iron, and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
dossenus wrote:

Devastating Maw (Ex) A dossenus' bite attack counts as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.

Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Your game, rule 0 applies.
Rules forum, rule 0 is meaningless.

Very good. Thank you.

It is also worth noting that silver and cold iron DR are not 'allergies'. A lycanthrope can handle silver and is not burned. a fey can handle cold iron. They are exactly as vulnerable to such as you or I are to steel...or to cold iron or silver. It NEUTRALIZES their DR, it doesn't do extra damage to them.

If it was an allergy, they'd have DR 10/-, and take extra damage from just touching silver or cold iron, instead of just taking 'normal damage'.

Not that I don't think an allergy is not appropriate...that's just not how it works in PF.

==Aelryinth


Also, remember, anything outside a creatures statblock is mutable fluff and has no intrinsic rules value. This includes a creatures name (Dragon Horses have nothing to do with Dragons) and other related fluff (you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'll make a simulacrum of an adamantine golem! It has all the abilities of the original...do I now get it to punch DR Adamantium, too, even though its made of ice?

:)

===Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Your game, rule 0 applies.
Rules forum, rule 0 is meaningless.

Very good. Thank you.

Meaningless self-congratulatory sophism.

No one is arguing that the rules should be ignored / house rules should be invoked.

Many just find your interpretation of what these rules 'say' less than convincing.


dragonhunterq wrote:


Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Not quite a good example. The cannon golem does not specify a material it's made out of anywhere in its entry, so even if you think adamantine golems are adamantine, the cannon golem would still need that special ability.

Contention over the functionality of adamantine golems is because the creature says it's made out of a material. So there's debate between "nothing in the stat block" vs "it says it's made out of adamantine". Which has very little to do with the cannon golem's abilities.

Aelryinth wrote:
Yet, by the rule invoked above, if you made the arrow out of blackwood and adamantine, it would be a blackwood arrow, because the blackwood part dominates and is a special material?

Items only partially made of wood gain no benefit from being crafted from darkwood. So no. That's spelled out pretty explicitly.

Quote:
you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements

The construction requirements that say you need 4000 pounds of adamantine and other materials?


Aelryinth wrote:

I'll make a simulacrum of an adamantine golem! It has all the abilities of the original...do I now get it to punch DR Adamantium, too, even though its made of ice?

:)

===Aelryinth

A common mistake, one that people often use to try to make ridiculous plans workable

A simulacrum does not have "all the abilities of the original"
It has abilities appropriate for what it is, a half HD copy made of snow and ice. So it's not made of adamantium, doesn't grant wishes, etc


swoosh wrote:

Quote:
you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements
The construction requirements that say you need 4000 pounds of adamantine and other materials?

So, 4000 lbs of other materials. Done. Which is even allowing for the craft construct rules being kind of a mess as there is no intrinsic relationship between the materials listed above the actual construction requirements and the statblock.


Calth wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Quote:
you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements
The construction requirements that say you need 4000 pounds of adamantine and other materials?

So, 4000 lbs of other materials. Done. Which is even allowing for the craft construct rules being kind of a mess as there is no intrinsic relationship between the materials listed and the statblock.

I suppose you could craft it using only trace amounts of adamantine, if you don't mind paying the exact same price for a golem that can't bypass DR/adamantine


Renata Maclean wrote:
Calth wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Quote:
you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements
The construction requirements that say you need 4000 pounds of adamantine and other materials?

So, 4000 lbs of other materials. Done. Which is even allowing for the craft construct rules being kind of a mess as there is no intrinsic relationship between the materials listed and the statblock.

I suppose you could craft it using only trace amounts of adamantine, if you don't mind paying the exact same price for a golem that can't bypass DR/adamantine

Well, considering that no matter how much adamantine you put into it, it doesn't qualify as being made of adamantine, its pretty moot.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Aelryinth wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:

Pedantic Reading > Common Sense, Context, or the English Language.

An item called out at being constructed from a specific material bypasses the DR for that material even if the item is not listed in the weapon table and lacks a specific notation that it bypasses DR.

Examples found in Pathfinder include the above listed silver tea service, mithral frying pans and admantine crowbars. All will bypass the appropriate DR even though they do not specifically notate DR is bypassed.

...unless you animate them. Then the adamantine crowbar that was perfectly capable of bypassing DR/hardness a minute ago is now a creature, not an object, and therefore it's composition is irrelevant.

Because that makes perfect sense, amiright? :D

An animated crowbar is still an object, uses the hardness rules, and can be targeted by effects that target objects. Are you trying to ignore other rules to not make a point, here?

They have what the spell gives, and the lose what the spell takes away. No more, no less.

===Aelryinth

That's the beauty of it though--it doesn't matter! The crowbar might still technically be an object, but its attacking as a creature.

The crowbar is not using itself as an improvised weapon, it's making a slam attack, just like the golem. Neither the animate objects spell nor the animated object bestiary entry say that an animated object's natural attacks count as being made of whatever the animated object is made of for the purposes of beating DR. Therefore, they don't.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

Rules - do what they say they do, not what we want them to do.

Your game, rule 0 applies.
Rules forum, rule 0 is meaningless.

Very good. Thank you.

Meaningless self-congratulatory sophism.

No one is arguing that the rules should be ignored / house rules should be invoked.

Many just find your interpretation of what these rules 'say' less than convincing.

Actually I'm just highlighting what the rules don't say. which is a lot more telling than what they do say.

You can add effects based on what you consider to be common sense, that does not make it a rule.

Liberty's Edge

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dragonhunterq wrote:

Actually I'm just highlighting what the rules don't say. which is a lot more telling than what they do say.

You can add effects based on what you consider to be common sense, that does not make it a rule.

So THAT'S how to get rule interpretations that make no sense.

I always wondered.


Renata Maclean wrote:

...

I suppose you could craft it using only trace amounts of adamantine, if you don't mind paying the exact same price for a golem that can't bypass DR/adamantine

You couldn't afford to craft it out of primarily Adamantine in any case. The cost of materials (100,000gp) could only cover about 330 pounds of Adamantine. Even if the rest of the materials needed were acquired for free, the golem would only be 12% adamantine at most. Bear in mind that the golem is also made out of gold, mithril and platinum(among other things), so the 12% figure is very generous. Heck, both platinum and mithril are more expensive than adamantine. The actual percentage is probably closer to half of that.


Are there adamantine stores on the elemental plane of earth? I think that was what is implied here.

Bestiary 2 wrote:

The vast amount of adamantine required to build

even one of these destructive golems is so significant that
most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the
creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer
Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build
the golem’s body.

Some materials need to be paid for... but some have to be 'gathered' and since you need to be a 20th level caster anyway, that's not TOO much trouble to do.

Also kind of curious what that OTHER 250,000 gp are going if you only need 100,000 worth of metal and gems.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

That's the beauty of it though--it doesn't matter! The crowbar might still technically be an object, but its attacking as a creature.

The crowbar is not using itself as an improvised weapon, it's making a slam attack, just like the golem. Neither the animate objects spell nor the animated object bestiary entry say that an animated object's natural attacks count as being made of whatever the animated object is made of for the purposes of beating DR. Therefore, they don't.

The rules don't say that special materials lose their special qualities when they're animated. Therefore, they don't.


Calth wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Quote:
you can literally craft an "adamantine golem" without any adamantine as there is nowhere listed a required amount adamantine in the craft construct requirements
The construction requirements that say you need 4000 pounds of adamantine and other materials?

So, 4000 lbs of other materials. Done. Which is even allowing for the craft construct rules being kind of a mess as there is no intrinsic relationship between the materials listed above the actual construction requirements and the statblock.

Pedantic reading at its finest.

In this instance we take each individual word in the sentence out of context, omitting the words that are irrelevant/contrary to the position we support.

Both common sense and common usage of the English language would dictate that the dominate material is the one that was specifically named.


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In my home game I will have an adamantine golem bypass DR/adamantine.
When I GM PFS I wouldn't, because it is an inference/implication. it is not a rule.

Dark Archive

Aelryinth wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Shadowlords wrote:
so i can take the individual pieces of adamantine full plate and use them as an improvised weapon to bypass DR but once i put a person in that full plate and start swinging that person around as an improvised weapon it no longer counts as adamantine for bypassing DR even though the striking surface and what you are actually getting hit with has not changed at all.
(Apart from there being MORE weight and force behind the blows. , that is ...

exactly. Because a silver tea set, a mithril BP and an adamantine crowbar are all made of special materials and are objects that can be made into improvised weapons.

A human fighter in adamantine armor is a mostly flesh and bone weapon with some metal wrapped around him. He's not an adamantine weapon by ANY stretch of the imagination.

==Aelryinth

Im sorry, im stuck on this one point now, that does not make any sense what so ever and i have a hard time believing you genuinely think that. at this point you are using the person in full plate as an improvised weapon. the body is merely the thing holding the full plate together, I could tie it together with a rope and achieve the same thing. the metal is still what is being used as the weapon, the body is just there, now if after awhile the metal parts started flying off and all i was left with was a person not in armor you couldnt bypass DR anymore because there is no more metal.

The same thing can be said about an animated adamantine full plate, in one state it is an object and can bypass DR, in the other state it is a creature and acroding to you can not bypass DR because creatures are not objects and so their qualities do not apply.

An adamantine Golem is just a much bigger, alot stronger, and more powerful version of an animated suit of adamantine full plate. at face value they are both constructs made of adamantine.


Aelryinth wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Creatures with the evil subtype do bypass DR/evil, actually.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

That's a late addition to the universal monster rules, but still adds to further defining the nature of the rules. Without a rule explicitly stating they gain DR for their attacks, creatures don't get them.

And alignment subtypes DO have that rule. Heck, they even repeat it for the demon and devil subtypes, again!

There's probably some other creatures that have the fact they overcome DR spilled out (I think a couple digging creatures have their attacks count as adamantine or something), but I can't think of any names off the top of my head.

==Aelryinth

So, you first argued that the absence of such a rule for [good] or [evil] creatures supported your position, and you're now arguing that the presence of such a rule for such creatures supports your position?


dragonhunterq wrote:

In my home game I will have an adamantine golem bypass DR/adamantine.

When I GM PFS I wouldn't, because it is an inference/implication. it is not a rule.

Yes. Yes it is. Even in PFS. ESPECIALLY in pfs.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Doesn't matter, Shadowlords. "Bypasses Adamantine DR and hardness" is not an ability a human fighter suddenly acquires when he's picked up and used to slam into his friends.
He's a human fighter wearing adamantine armor. Not an adamantine weapon. By ANY stretch of the imagination. You're trying to apply the properties of one to the other.
If you want to tie the armor into a ball and make a weapon out of it with no human inside, that's actually making a weapon. Whether its viable as an adamantine weapon instead of merely an improvised flail is another matter, and your DM's call, since strapping lots of armor together isn't exactly making an adamantine weapon. You do have to make and use a weapon appropriately to get the benefits, you know? Does tying a helm on a rope make it an adamantine flail, when it has none of the mass or design to actually be a flail?

As for the animated objects, it was noted above: If you animate a weapon, it's still a weapon even if it's animated. So it's still an object and retains its properties.

The DR examples that DRagonhunter posted are there to show that if a creature can punch DR, INCLUDING adamantine DR, it's posted in their stat block. IF it doesn't have the language, it can't do it.

Adamantine is almost twice the price of mithril. You only have to look at the prices of armor...adamantine heavy armor is 16k gp, vs 9k for mithril. In old 1e, mithril was 25 gp/coin, adamantine was 40 gp, waaaay more then platinum.

as for 'amounts of adamantine'...really not a problem on Golarion, which had a spaceship full of the stuff fall onto the planet. There's tons of it all over the place. For other worlds...if you've got drow and duergar around, there's probably enough adamantine for everyone.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Saldiven wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Creatures with the evil subtype do bypass DR/evil, actually.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

That's a late addition to the universal monster rules, but still adds to further defining the nature of the rules. Without a rule explicitly stating they gain DR for their attacks, creatures don't get them.

And alignment subtypes DO have that rule. Heck, they even repeat it for the demon and devil subtypes, again!

There's probably some other creatures that have the fact they overcome DR spilled out (I think a couple digging creatures have their attacks count as adamantine or something), but I can't think of any names off the top of my head.

==Aelryinth

So, you first argued that the absence of such a rule for [good] or [evil] creatures supported your position, and you're now arguing that the presence of such a rule for such creatures supports your position?

Uh, what?

I pointed out that first that the rule is in their stat block. THEN, that it was in the explanation for their racial subtype (demon, devil, etc). THEN it came up as part of the universal monster rules.

There is no such rule for adamatine, silver or cold iron.

So, my argument is and was: those creatures have rules that give them DR punch (in THREE interwoven locations relative to their stat blocks, no less), and the adamantine golem does not have ANY.

And DRagonhunter posted two monsters that have DR Adamantine punching right in their stat block, to show that is exactly what Paizo does. The Adamantine golem does NOT have that language.

Where exactly is your argument coming from?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

BigNorseWolf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

In my home game I will have an adamantine golem bypass DR/adamantine.

When I GM PFS I wouldn't, because it is an inference/implication. it is not a rule.
Yes. Yes it is. Even in PFS. ESPECIALLY in pfs.

Um, no. No, it's not. And PFS is especially sharp on trying to adhere to the rules, and not adding new ones in at the DM's whim.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Doesn't matter, Shadowlords. "Bypasses Adamantine DR and hardness" is not an ability a human fighter suddenly acquires when he's picked up and used to slam into his friends.

It's an ability he already has, if he's wearing adamantine gauntlets, which are automatically part of most suits of adamantine armour

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

phantom1592 wrote:

Are there adamantine stores on the elemental plane of earth? I think that was what is implied here.

Bestiary 2 wrote:

The vast amount of adamantine required to build

even one of these destructive golems is so significant that
most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the
creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer
Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build
the golem’s body.

Some materials need to be paid for... but some have to be 'gathered' and since you need to be a 20th level caster anyway, that's not TOO much trouble to do.

Also kind of curious what that OTHER 250,000 gp are going if you only need 100,000 worth of metal and gems.

Probably paying for the crafting of the thing? Raw materials are at best 1/3rd the cost. You need to pay the craftsmen to make it, and then you need the comps to power it up as a magic item, most likely.

Seriously, look at a stone golem. It costs a bunch of money, and its made out of rock. Technically speaking, it should be almost free with a few stone shape spells.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

In my home game I will have an adamantine golem bypass DR/adamantine.

When I GM PFS I wouldn't, because it is an inference/implication. it is not a rule.
Yes. Yes it is. Even in PFS. ESPECIALLY in pfs.

Um, no. No, it's not. And PFS is especially sharp on trying to adhere to the rules, and not adding new ones in at the DM's whim.

==Aelryinth

Why don't you try actually playing PFS before telling the people who do play it what it's like.

The absurd rules lawyering inanity of an iron golem not getting through dr/adamantine would be a very rare call in pfs. And probably get some wry looks from the players

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Renata Maclean wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Doesn't matter, Shadowlords. "Bypasses Adamantine DR and hardness" is not an ability a human fighter suddenly acquires when he's picked up and used to slam into his friends.

It's an ability he already has, if he's wearing adamantine gauntlets, which are automatically part of most suits of adamantine armour

and if he's using the gauntlets as weapons, he's good to go. that's an ability the gauntlets have.

If the fighter is the weapon, that's not the same thing, and you're trying to say it is. It's akin to saying IUS punches DR because the fighter is wearing an adamantine chain shirt.

Furthermore, when does it stop? Let's say the fighter has an adamantine chain shirt. There's nothing 'rigid' about it. You're using the fighter as a weapon. The shirt is useless as a weapon...it's a bunch of chain links.

The ability to punch adamantium DR is not an intrinsic power of a fighter wearing adamantine armor and being used as an improvised weapon. You're trying to read new rules into the game that don't apply.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

My fist by itself does not beat DR adamantine, but as soon as i put on a adamantine gauntlet it does beat DR adamantine.

The human fighter by itself does not beat DR adamantine when he is being used as an improvised weapon, but as soon as you put on adamantine armor (to cover the body parts that you are striking the target with) it does beat DR adamantine.

these 2 situations are identical, the only difference is the scale at which it is being applied to.

The materials do not magically lose their properties because of these odd situations.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The absurd rules lawyering inanity of an adamantine golem not getting through dr/adamantine would be a very rare call in pfs. And probably get some wry looks from the players

It certainly wouldn't fly at my table.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The absurd rules lawyering inanity of an adamantine golem not getting through dr/adamantine would be a very rare call in pfs. And probably get some wry looks from the players
It certainly wouldn't fly at my table.

You would do it just to make your players give themselves the concussion. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Shadowlords wrote:

My fist by itself does not beat DR adamantine, but as soon as i put on a adamantine gauntlet it does beat DR adamantine.

The human fighter by itself does not beat DR adamantine when he is being used as an improvised weapon, but as soon as you put on adamantine armor (to cover the body parts that you are striking the target with) it does beat DR adamantine.

these 2 situations are identical, the only difference is the scale at which it is being applied to.

The materials do not magically lose their properties because of these odd situations.

So you smack the fighter with the adamantine chain shirt into the stone golem, and it suddenly ignores the Golem's DR.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because the fighter, who is the one wearing the armor, is not using it as a weapon, whereas the giant is using the fighter as a weapon, not his armor.

You're making leaps of inferences that aren't in the rules. So, no, it won't fly. "Punches Hardness and DR" is not an ability a fighter gains when used as a weapon just because he has armor on.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

In my home game I will have an adamantine golem bypass DR/adamantine.

When I GM PFS I wouldn't, because it is an inference/implication. it is not a rule.
Yes. Yes it is. Even in PFS. ESPECIALLY in pfs.

Um, no. No, it's not. And PFS is especially sharp on trying to adhere to the rules, and not adding new ones in at the DM's whim.

==Aelryinth

Why don't you try actually playing PFS before telling the people who do play it what it's like.

The absurd rules lawyering inanity of an iron golem not getting through dr/adamantine would be a very rare call in pfs. And probably get some wry looks from the players

Iron Golems don't punch adamantine DR, either?

And I've repeatedly said, it's a good house rule, AND it can be overcome just by sticking adamantine guantlets on the golem.

It's just not in the core rules. And trying to rules lawyer that it IS by inferring things that are not stated is really bad form.

The fact is, I agree with you, I think it is dumb, and it should be errata'd, but that's not what the rules are. And at my table, that's how I'd rule it. At a PFS table, I'd follow the rules.

==Aelryinth

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