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"Common sense" is not a Pathfinder rule.
Thinking like that is exactly why this thread has gone on past 1 post.
Y'know, reading through this the only thing that's truly impervious here is pretty much one person's "absolute authority" on what the rules say...because they say so.
I'd swear that someone was actually representing Paizo's editors' absolute ruling.....except that isn't the case.
As usual, it's up to you. It's a logic fail that a creature made of out of a particular material can't overcome a creature's damage resistance to all things but that material, but a lot of things in Pathfinder make little sense. Personally any creature is made out of or has extremities constructed of said material should be able to overcome DR, same thing with alignment typed creatures. That's how I would run it. Usually most creatures that can overcome a particular type of DR have that as part of their tag line, but not always.
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Silver fox = fox made of silver.
I see we are on the same page!
Golden Retriever = retriever made of gold!
Rosy complexion = complexion made of roses!
Bald eagle = eagle with a bald head!
Red Robin = a Robin that is Red!
...
Do I have to go on with other nonsensical examples?==Aelryinth
Strawman argument.
The fact that certain things are named figuratively in no way demonstrates that everything is named in such a manner.
In the case of the Admantine Golem, it is very simple to demonstrate a literal name:
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem’s body
By raw: a vast amount of admantine is used to construct the admantine golems body.
Silver fox = fox made of silver.
I see we are on the same page!
Golden Retriever = retriever made of gold!
Rosy complexion = complexion made of roses!
Bald eagle = eagle with a bald head!
Red Robin = a Robin that is Red!
...
Do I have to go on with other nonsensical examples?==Aelryinth
Strawman argument.
The fact that certain things are named figuratively in no way demonstrates that everything is named in such a manner.
In the case of the Admantine Golem, it is very simple to demonstrate a literal name:
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem’s bodyBy raw: a vast amount of admantine is used to construct the admantine golems body.
The argument you were nice enough NOT to quote is the strawman.
Just because something is named something does NOT MEAN they suddenly get a DR punching rule for them. I was taking the strawman provided and running with it to the absurd extreme to show the ridiculousness of it.
The creature gets what it gets in the text, regardless of what its name is. Else silver dragons get to punch DR/Silver, too!
And by the text, a 'vast amount' of adamantine works out to about 12% of the body mass. Which is about ten suits of adamantine full plate armor equivs. 'Vast amount', maaaaaybe. Made of adamantine? Not hardly.
===Aelryinth
...It's at times like this that I appreciate having The Most Important Rule.
Agreed. Just because Paizo never modified this to include adamantine is no reason not to throw it in with Rule 0.
==Aelryinth
And by the text, a 'vast amount' of adamantine works out to about 12% of the body mass.According to calculations that rely on a significant amount of speculation and a very specific reading of things.
Sure. As opposed to readings that rely on the name of the golem, and 'a vast amount of adamantine'.
:P
They gave us numbers, someone used them, and got results. When someone says 'a planet's worth of something rare' and the math says $10,000 worth, we have problems. Math tends to narrow things down nicely that way. It's why we invented whole professions that do nothing but math and make it real.
==Aelryinth
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Silver fox = fox made of silver.
I see we are on the same page!
Golden Retriever = retriever made of gold!
Rosy complexion = complexion made of roses!
Bald eagle = eagle with a bald head!
Red Robin = a Robin that is Red!
...
Do I have to go on with other nonsensical examples?==Aelryinth
Strawman argument.
The fact that certain things are named figuratively in no way demonstrates that everything is named in such a manner.
In the case of the Admantine Golem, it is very simple to demonstrate a literal name:
The vast amount of adamantine required to build even one of these destructive golems is so significant that most worlds do not have enough resources, forcing the creator to travel to the Plane of Earth or remote Outer Planes simply to gather the raw materials needed to build the golem’s bodyBy raw: a vast amount of admantine is used to construct the admantine golems body.The argument you were nice enough NOT to quote is the strawman.
Just because something is named something does NOT MEAN they suddenly get a DR punching rule for them. I was taking the strawman provided and running with it to the absurd extreme to show the ridiculousness of it.
The creature gets what it gets in the text, regardless of what its name is. Else silver dragons get to punch DR/Silver, too!
And by the text, a 'vast amount' of adamantine works out to about 12% of the body mass. Which is about ten suits of adamantine full plate armor equivs. 'Vast amount', maaaaaybe. Made of adamantine? Not hardly.
===Aelryinth
The thing you're ignoring is that, unlike all the creatures you listed, there is a clear naming convention already in place for golems.
Wood golems are made of wood.
Clay golems are made of clay.
Flesh golems are made of flesh.
Stone golems are made of stone.
Iron golems are made of iron.
Fossil golems are made of fossils.
Blood golems are made of blood.
Cannon golems are made of cannons.
...and so on.
When people point to the name, "adamantine golem", and say that it indicates the golem is made of adamantine, what they're doing is appealing to the golem naming convention--not to monster names in general.
That's why pointing out that silver foxes aren't made of silver is a strawman.
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When the Glass Golem was introduced there were no creatures with DR/glass. Thus, there would have been no logical reason for its stat block to indicate that it bypassed an, at that time, non-existent form of damage reduction.
However, now that the Fext exists and has DR/glass, it would be absurd to say that Glass Golems cannot bypass this DR.
Do Blood Golems, Coral Golems, Clay Golems, and others need to specify that they bypass those various non-existent forms of damage reduction? Should most living creatures have a line in their stat blocks saying that their natural weapon attacks bypass DR/flesh? Et cetera.
The claim that DR bypass types need to be specifically called out is RIDICULOUS. In most cases it is not done for weapon types (i.e. slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing)... or alignments... or materials. There are general rules covering how damage reduction works and GMs are expected to apply these logically. The camp that insists otherwise is simply wrong about how the rules are written and intended to be used.
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Silver fox = fox made of silver.
I see we are on the same page!
Golden Retriever = retriever made of gold!
Rosy complexion = complexion made of roses!
Bald eagle = eagle with a bald head!
Red Robin = a Robin that is Red!
Since you seem to be stuck on this...
If the fox and Retriever where both constructs then yes i would say the fox is made of silver and the dog is made of gold (and that said dog would retrieve things) in this case they are named as such because they are that color.
If i did not know better and had no other information to go on, i would say a bald eagle was in fact and eagle that happens to be bald, after all there are birds without feathers on their heads, looking at you vultures, but we know they are not because we have other sources to give us more info and we can go an observe these things.
A red robin is actually red...
But within the context of the game, constructs, and golems are named after the materials they are made of so my argument on this matter holds more water then yours does at this point.
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Math is great, but when that math is based on assumptions and interpretations it really isn't any more or less valuable than anything else.They gave us numbers, someone used them, and got results. When someone says 'a planet's worth of something rare' and the math says $10,000 worth, we have problems. Math tends to narrow things down nicely that way. It's why we invented whole professions that do nothing but math and make it real.
==Aelryinth
Additionally, I rather doubt that whoever wrote up the original entry for the Adamantine Golem did all that number crunching. Most likely they just pulled out a number that they thought seemed semi-reasonable for the material costs.
Additionally, I rather doubt that whoever wrote up the original entry for the Adamantine Golem did all that number crunching. Most likely they just pulled out a number that they thought seemed semi-reasonable for the material costs.Math is great, but when that math is based on assumptions and interpretations it really isn't any more or less valuable than anything else.They gave us numbers, someone used them, and got results. When someone says 'a planet's worth of something rare' and the math says $10,000 worth, we have problems. Math tends to narrow things down nicely that way. It's why we invented whole professions that do nothing but math and make it real.
==Aelryinth
Oh, I'm not disputing that at all. But even the description of the thing says its built out of more then adamantine, and the numbers just support the fact the fact it isn't even a majority.
So, it's NOT made out of adamantine, it just includes adamantine in it for strength and durability, and since no other golem has the same, they foisted the name off on it. Epic stuff, y'know.
==Aelryinth
Silver fox = fox made of silver.
I see we are on the same page!
Golden Retriever = retriever made of gold!
Rosy complexion = complexion made of roses!
Bald eagle = eagle with a bald head!
Red Robin = a Robin that is Red!
Since you seem to be stuck on this...
If the fox and Retriever where both constructs then yes i would say the fox is made of silver and the dog is made of gold (and that said dog would retrieve things) in this case they are named as such because they are that color.
If i did not know better and had no other information to go on, i would say a bald eagle was in fact and eagle that happens to be bald, after all there are birds without feathers on their heads, looking at you vultures, but we know they are not because we have other sources to give us more info and we can go an observe these things.
A red robin is actually red...
But within the context of the game, constructs, and golems are named after the materials they are made of so my argument on this matter holds more water then yours does at this point.
Ohhhh, so now there's a trait for constructs that says they get DR Punch of the material they are made of!
Oh, wait, no, there isn't. I guess being a construct doesn't do what you say.
==Aelryinth
When the Glass Golem was introduced there were no creatures with DR/glass. Thus, there would have been no logical reason for its stat block to indicate that it bypassed an, at that time, non-existent form of damage reduction.
However, now that the Fext exists and has DR/glass, it would be absurd to say that Glass Golems cannot bypass this DR.
Do Blood Golems, Coral Golems, Clay Golems, and others need to specify that they bypass those various non-existent forms of damage reduction? Should most living creatures have a line in their stat blocks saying that their natural weapon attacks bypass DR/flesh? Et cetera.
The claim that DR bypass types need to be specifically called out is RIDICULOUS. In most cases it is not done for weapon types (i.e. slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing)... or alignments... or materials. There are general rules covering how damage reduction works and GMs are expected to apply these logically. The camp that insists otherwise is simply wrong about how the rules are written and intended to be used.
and yet, there is no glass in the game that has Dr 5/adamantine, or even hardness 5/adamantine or something.
Because whatever was done to the glass of the golem turned into a creature and not a special material. maybe its actually quartz crystal and just looks like glass?
Regardless, it's not a construct trait and its not a creature special ability. House Rule away.
==Aelryinth
The thing you're ignoring is that, unlike all the creatures you listed, there is a clear naming convention already in place for golems.
Wood golems are made of wood.
Clay golems are made of clay.
Flesh golems are made of flesh.
Stone golems are made of stone.
Iron golems are made of iron.
Fossil golems are made of fossils.
Blood golems are made of blood.
Cannon golems are made of cannons...
Um, your righteous redirect of the failing strawman you started might have worked right up until you jumped on my bandwagon.
'Cause Cannon Golems are not made of cannons, they are basically golems with cannons for arms...they WIELD cannons. So, it's a descriptive term, fluff, and you read the description, and lo, they are made of stuff and 'equipped' with cannons.
But you didn't read the description, did you?
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A cannon golem is built from 2,000 pounds of adamantine, brass, cold iron, and mithral.
CL 17th; Price 200,000 gp
---------
And you know what? It says right in the creature stats they punch DR adamantine, silver and cold iron. It doesn't let you assume anything just because those are the building materials.
Eesh.
==Aelryinth
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Yep, that's it folks. Every creature stat block ever published needs to be updated to specify the DR types which each attack can (or theoretically ever could) bypass. They don't do so currently, so they are all wrong / no DRs are bypassed. For example;
Balor
Melee +1 vorpal unholy longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+13), +1 vorpal flaming whip +30/+25/+20 (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire and entangle) or 2 slams +31 (1d10+12)
+1 vorpal unholy longsword should bypass magic, epic, slashing, evil, and vorpal damage resistance. Note that epic and vorpal damage resistance did not exist when the Balor was introduced. Thus, we should also list possible future DR types that this attack would bypass; metal, sword, large, pointy, et cetera.
+1 vorpal flaming whip should bypass magic, epic, slashing, evil, and vorpal damage resistance. Possible future DR types that this attack should bypass include; whip, flaming, bendy, large, leather, et cetera.
2 slams should bypass evil, chaotic, and bludgeoning DR. Possible future DR types that these attacks should bypass include; slam, demon, outsider, flesh, large, punchy, et cetera.
None of these DR bypasses are currently stated, so Balors cannot in fact bypass any DR. Don't blame me. Those are just 'the rules'. Or not.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Um, your righteous redirect of the failing strawman you started might have worked right up until you jumped on my bandwagon.
'Cause Cannon Golems are not made of cannons, they are basically golems with cannons for arms...they WIELD cannons. So, it's a descriptive term, fluff, and you read the description, and lo, they are made of stuff and 'equipped' with cannons.
But you didn't read the description, did you?
------
A cannon golem is built from 2,000 pounds of adamantine, brass, cold iron, and mithral.CL 17th; Price 200,000 gp
---------
And you know what? It says right in the creature stats they punch DR adamantine, silver and cold iron. It doesn't let you assume anything just because those are the building materials.Eesh.
==Aelryinth
Ooh, now I'm good aligned (righteous!) :D
You, however are dodging the point.
Are you disputing that there's a naming convention for golems, in which they are named after the thing they're made of?
You mean like Cannons?
And dragons are named after metals. Does this mean they get to punch the DR of that metal?
No?
Then the naming convention is immaterial to the abilities. They have the abilities they have. I don't see any rule where the name of a construct gives them extra abilities. Could you point that out for me in the universal monster rules? Construct traits?
==Aelryinth
Yep, that's it folks. Every creature stat block ever published needs to be updated to specify the DR types which each attack can (or theoretically ever could) bypass. They don't do so currently, so they are all wrong / no DRs are bypassed. For example;
Balor
Melee +1 vorpal unholy longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+13), +1 vorpal flaming whip +30/+25/+20 (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire and entangle) or 2 slams +31 (1d10+12)+1 vorpal unholy longsword should bypass magic, epic, slashing, evil, and vorpal damage resistance. Note that epic and vorpal damage resistance did not exist when the Balor was introduced. Thus, we should also list possible future DR types that this attack would bypass; metal, sword, large, pointy, et cetera.
+1 vorpal flaming whip should bypass magic, epic, slashing, evil, and vorpal damage resistance. Possible future DR types that this attack should bypass include; whip, flaming, bendy, large, leather, et cetera.
2 slams should bypass evil, chaotic, and bludgeoning DR. Possible future DR types that these attacks should bypass include; slam, demon, outsider, flesh, large, punchy, et cetera.
None of these DR bypasses are currently stated, so Balors cannot in fact bypass any DR. Don't blame me. Those are just 'the rules'. Or not.
Wow, this post is filled with so much ignorance of the rules, I'm not even going to TRY to correct it.
Someone else try it. I'm heading to bed.
==Aelryinth
Q: Does Adamantine bypass DR/Adamantine?
A: According to RAW, no.
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And dragons are named after metals. Does this mean they get to punch the DR of that metal?
Huh, I never thought of it that way.
If (as you seem to believe) metallic dragons are literally made of their namesake metal, would that mean a Red Dragon is made of Red Dye #5? Can my Chromatic Dragon bypass DR/Food Coloring?
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(It actually gets DR/epic, which implies it's made of something harder than regular materials which only grant DR/adamantine, but if you're deliberately trying to not add to the conversation, it probably doesn't matter anyway)
It gets DR/adamantine. It is just obscured by DR/epic because they are just such bad dudes.
"Immunity to Magic (Ex)An adamantine golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance, except as noted below.
• Transmute metal to wood slows an adamantine golem for 1d4 rounds, during which time its damage reduction is reduced to 15/adamantine (no save)."
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And dragons are named after metals. Does this mean they get to punch the DR of that metal?Huh, I never thought of it that way.
If (as you seem to believe) metallic dragons are literally made of their namesake metal, would that mean a Red Dragon is made of Red Dye #5? Can my Chromatic Dragon bypass DR/Food Coloring?
Yes, you are correct. That is why they are the natural enemy of the Easter Bunny. They are always sundering his eggs.
A couple random thoughts on pricing:
What's the other 250,000 GP of raw materials? Note that for a few other golem types the priced and weighted elements are separate, so you can make an argument the 100k is for the 'other metals' rather than the adamantine.
Also remember that for whatever reason, processed adamantine can be significantly cheaper than raw adamantine. You get nearly double the adamantine if you melt down dwarven longhammers.
Though even with both of those played at their most lenient you still cap out around 40% adamantine.