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Anime and manga has a long history of characters being bland mixing of ethinicities into one thing. But that goes out the window when you make a live action movie and cast real people with real ethnicities.
No. Playing a different real world ethnicity than what you are is not what it means to be actor. And it also doesn't f*#~ing matter That the creators of the film doesn't care, that should have been obvious since they cast her in the first place. And having one news article saying they don't the problem with it does not mean a whole culture does not have a problem with it.
Having a white actor play a Japanese character is whitewashing.
Blackface is often known as the highest art in acting, you know.
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A white guy playing a white guy with differing capabilities is in no way the same as a white woman playing a Japanese woman.
It's f*#*ing whitewashing. You've supplied one article that says they don't care. It doesn't matter. Since this goes beyond Japanese perceptions. Whitewashing any ethnicity is bad.
This is f%*%ing whitewashing.
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QB, can we end the stupid whitewashing derail? I know you like popping into threads and ramping up emotions in your attempt to "win" until they get locked, but I think most of us are a bit tired of it by now.
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Noooo, the article you linked said they didn't care, that's different than saying this isn't whitewashing, which it is.
Again, whitewashing = bad. There's no arguing around it.
Still no links to the contrary, just more posturing on repeat, okay...
Maybe tomorrow.
Dood, Whitewashing = bad
This isn't some new development that everyone is still trying to decide on, it's bad.
That is, I'll start right after watching the Live-action Rurouni Kenshin movie that I just bought.I just remember he was involved. I just kept forgetting if he was the fall guy or the planner.Interesting question. I'll re-watch the series to find out over this weekend.
Excellent. I look forward to your analysis.
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Purple,
Well then you and I have different ideas about things that matter for different movies I guess.
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Scythia,
I hope you didn't mean me...Cause I'm not intractable. Usually.
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I'm hoping for a good movie, casting besides the point.
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The fact that Scarlett was the co-star of "Lost in Translation" (a movie profoundly steeped into the Japanese culture) seems lost on this thread. Oh the irony! :)
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Oh what about the race lift of the gunslinger in dark tower? Or is that ok because a white character is being played by a black actor?
First off, the issue isn't "changing race of the character is ALWAYS bad". That isn't how you judge something like this. You look at who is predominantly being represented in media, and look at how characters get changed. If the vast majority of roles go to white people, then changing black roles to white is obviously bad, because you're pushing a marginalized group further to the side (cause you're ONLY casting them in ethnically required roles). Changing a white role to black is inclusive, because it's increasing the availability of roles for the minority group.
If non-white groups were given good representation among leading actors/actresses, changing a role here or there to white wouldn't be a big deal.
Imagine we're in a roleplaying group and I'm the GM. You make a character and want to participate, but I keep shining the focus on another player. Then, when your character's specialty is about to come up in the story, I award that other player a magic item that lets him circumvent that story issue for the party. If you at least got some screen time/participation you might not be as mad about the magic item, but if I'm not letting you participate at all, how would that feel?
It's a crude analogy, don't nitpick it. If someone doesn't understand what I'm trying to say, please ask, but if you nitpick or add more stuff to it, I won't respond. I don't want to go onto a tangent about the analogy.
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Yup, that's part of it. In a perfect world, unless the race of the character is central to their identity, it shouldn't matter.
The other part is that because roles aren't handed out even proportionally by race (no one is arguing for precise measurements, but just that basic sense of being fair) that we should be extra aware of when we're taking ethnically/racially biased roles (race/ethnicity isn't central, but it's highly suggestive) and not giving them to the appropriate actors.
Non-white actors shouldn't just be cast for roles that require someone to be non-white, but if Hollywood isn't going to cast them in anything else, they should at least get all of those roles.
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Non-white actors shouldn't just be cast for roles that require someone to be non-white, but if Hollywood isn't going to cast them in anything else, they should at least get all of those roles.
A world of NO.
Granting roles based solely on race IS racism.I prefer the better actor or actress getting the role NOT the most PC person.
I would rather a possibly good movie performed by a skilled actress rather than a doomed movie performed by a less skilled actress who is only there because the film makers wanted a quota system.
Look at Halle Berry. A skill at acting is what landed her in blockbuster movies NOT a quota system. Samuel L Jackson was the BEST person for the role of Nick Fury (a white role) NOT because of quotas but because he was the best actor.
ScarJo has a list of top movies requiring very similar roles to that of the Major, I can think of no one more qualified for the part.
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A world of NO.
Granting roles based solely on race IS racism.
No, no it is not. Having a Japanese actor play a Japanese character is not racism.
I prefer the better actor or actress getting the role NOT the most PC person.
And were any actors even auditioned? Or did they just go for a big name?
I would rather a possibly good movie performed by a skilled actress rather than a doomed movie performed by a less skilled actress who is only there because the film makers wanted a quota system.Not Whitewashing characters is not filling quota system.
Look at Halle Berry. A skill at acting is what landed her in blockbuster movies NOT a quota system. Samuel L Jackson was the BEST person for the role of Nick Fury (a white role) NOT because of quotas but because he was the best actor.Orrrrrr because they modeled Ultimate Nick Fury (who is black and looks exactly like Jackson) on him and was one of the conditions of them using his likeness.
ScarJo has a list of top movies requiring very similar roles to that of the Major, I can think of no one more qualified for the part.
How about an actual Japanese actress?
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All I know is my support or dislike of this movie will depend on the STORY not the actors.
Whitewashing or not, the real reason is, as always, money. A live action movie with the kind of special effects that this movie will require means they need a name, someone who the average movie-goer would know.
Sure, it would be great if they cast a Japanese actress. That said, she would not be known in a wide assortment of markets and that means a loss of money for the studios and probably a lot less theaters that it'd be shown in.
It isn't a matter of casting an authentic Japanese actress, or for other movies an LGBT actor, or handicapped or whatever. It's the studio wanting to make the most bang for their buck that they can. So they cast Scarlett as the Major, or Daniel Day Louis in My Left Foot, or Jared Leto in the Dallas Buyer's Club. It's the names that put butts in seats. ScarJo puts butts in seats, and a largely unknown but accurate Japanese actress won't.
Yes, it's whitewashing and yes, it largely sucks. But unless and until people separate the names from the movies AND want to shell out the Big Bucks for unknowns in major movies it isn't going to change.
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All I know is my support or dislike of this movie will depend on the STORY not the actors.
Good stories are often ruined by bad actors.
A million lols at the Halle Berry being a good actress comment while I'm here.
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Aranna has it about right.
The thing with issues like this is those in the entrenched positions cannot be swayed. Dare to use logic to support your position and you really get blasted.
We saw the same thing with the recent election - sure one was worse than the other but the fact that both sides couldn't see how dismal their own candidate was proved to be very instructive to me regarding human psychology.
As to casting for the live action GitS;
1) the Japanese fans are happy with it OR they don't care
2) the Japanese "holding company" supports the live action movie and casting in every way
3) the manga and anime creators are all happy with it
4) when Sam Yoshiba, at Kodansha's Tokyo headquarters, says ScarJo "...has the cyberpunk feel. And we never imagined it would be a Japanese actress in the first place."... at that point you kinda don't have much of an argument. But still some will.
That's not what I'm reading on Asian boards, even those from the East Asian folks.
They are actually rather outraged and upset, to the point of using terms that are absolutely banned here.
I suppose we'll see if it becomes a major breakout in China and Japan...if not...that is your answer right there on just "how happy" they are about this.
Everything I've read on reactions to this here is similar to their statements on whitewashing. One mention that I heard there was about a recent trailer where the main characters were white, but all the people who were dying in the trailer were Asian.
They probably read a LOT more into that then what was intended, but they found that absolutely offensive.
Furthermore, they have plenty of Japanese and Asian actors that were NEVER asked, there are MORE actors than what you find in Hollywood, CA, and in many instances, those of other races may feel their actors are actually just as talented (or in some instances) more talented than many of those that are chosen for some roles.
In this instance, when talking if they'd prefer an Asian actress even if they were not Japanese, the overwhelming consent on the other forums seem to be, even if it isn't ideal, it is FAR preferable to the whitewashing.
These could be a minority (it's always hard to tell just how representative people on forums are), and it could be a mega breakout in Asia, but if it's not, don't be surprised.
Whitewashing or not, the real reason is, as always, money. A live action movie with the kind of special effects that this movie will require means they need a name, someone who the average movie-goer would know.
Sure, it would be great if they cast a Japanese actress. That said, she would not be known in a wide assortment of markets and that means a loss of money for the studios and probably a lot less theaters that it'd be shown in.
It isn't a matter of casting an authentic Japanese actress, or for other movies an LGBT actor, or handicapped or whatever. It's the studio wanting to make the most bang for their buck that they can. So they cast Scarlett as the Major, or Daniel Day Louis in My Left Foot, or Jared Leto in the Dallas Buyer's Club. It's the names that put butts in seats. ScarJo puts butts in seats, and a largely unknown but accurate Japanese actress won't.
Yes, it's whitewashing and yes, it largely sucks. But unless and until people separate the names from the movies AND want to shell out the Big Bucks for unknowns in major movies it isn't going to change.
In the US, this might help the market. It may do well in the US, but I think it's going to flop here (could be wrong).
In Asia, whitewashing it like this, might not be advantageous. Considering how many films targeted towards the Asian market actually make up their budget in China and Asia in general (Pacific Rim, Warcraft), hedging one's bets purely on the Western markets these days, especially on something based off an Asian cartoon...I'm not sure that these Hollywood types always know what they are doing.
HOWEVER...it could be a mega hit worldwide...in Asia, in the US and in Europe.
I don't know. I think that the fans of GitS are not going to be able to make it a blockbuster by themselves, and though it has Scarlet in the role, I'm not sure if she, by herself, could make it that big in and of herself. Some will go see it, but I'd probably tailor my expectations to an Under the Skin size profit.
If they do something more like Lucy, which was around 126 mil in the US, it depends on the budget on whether it is profitable (I expect it wouldn't be, Scarlet is getting 10 mil just on her own from what I hear), though I expect they'd be harder pressed because a majority of the profits will need to be overseas (which is where Lucy made a majority of it's profits).
Scarlet just doesn't have the name draw in the US that people assume she has. There are those who will go to a movie just because of her, but to say a film will sink or swim because of her star power...She's not Mel Gibson in the 90s and early 2000s.
As one last thing...anyone see something ironic about it's whitewashing and the quote below...
in the Near Future - Corporate Networks reach out to the stars, electrons and light flow throughout the universe.The advance of computerisation, however, has not yet wiped out nations and ethnic groups.
As to casting for the live action GitS;
1) the Japanese fans are happy with it OR they don't care
2) the Japanese "holding company" supports the live action movie and casting in every way
3) the manga and anime creators are all happy with it
4) when Sam Yoshiba, at Kodansha's Tokyo headquarters, says ScarJo "...has the cyberpunk feel. And we never imagined it would be a Japanese actress in the first place."
In addition to what GreyWolfLord has posted and what I have seen after looking around a bit on the Web, points 2 - 4 really are invalid. The Japanese production company and the creators need the movie to succeed. Do you really think they would express any negative opinions, even if they weren't Japanese?
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How about an actual Japanese actress?
What not even a Chinese one?! Your mentality is showing here. It IS important to LOOK the part as much as possible but past that? NO. It is an absurd burden to expect studios to specifically hire specific foreigners to fill roles when they have 'nearly perfect' people right here willing to do the role. "nearly perfect?" you might mock, citing once again that she isn't Japanese. YES. Her body type is a near match, her skill set is perfect, she is a good actress, AND world famous. If they didn't expect an even greater backlash I suspect they might have even applied a cosmetic effect to her eyes to make them appear Asian. BUT also NO Japanese actress is as well known globally as ScarJo. NONE. This IS the best casting they could hope for.
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How about an actual Japanese actress?What not even a Chinese one?! Your mentality is showing here. It IS important to LOOK the part as much as possible but past that? NO. It is an absurd burden to expect studios to specifically hire specific foreigners to fill roles when they have 'nearly perfect' people right here willing to do the role. "nearly perfect?" you might mock, citing once again that she isn't Japanese. YES. Her body type is a near match, her skill set is perfect, she is a good actress, AND world famous. If they didn't expect an even greater backlash I suspect they might have even applied a cosmetic effect to her eyes to make them appear Asian. BUT also NO Japanese actress is as well known globally as ScarJo. NONE. This IS the best casting they could hope for.
Saying any Asian ethnicity could play a specifically Japanese character is a rather racist statement.
Yellowface is definitely racist.
You are blatantly ignoring Whitewashing.
Casting a big name means absolutely nothing. People are no names before they are big names. And did you ever stop to think why there aren't any (at least in the States) more well known Japanese actresses? Hint, "there aren't any" and "all of them are bad actresses" is false.
This conversation is over.
Edited some phrasing of mine.
Casting no names is a HUGE gamble. One a studio typically takes to avoid the big price tag famous people have. Clearly they had enough budget for casting a star in the lead role. Bravo to the studio.
Non-white actors shouldn't just be cast for roles that require someone to be non-white, but if Hollywood isn't going to cast them in anything else, they should at least get all of those roles.A world of NO.
Granting roles based solely on race IS racism.
I prefer the better actor or actress getting the role NOT the most PC person.I would rather a possibly good movie performed by a skilled actress rather than a doomed movie performed by a less skilled actress who is only there because the film makers wanted a quota system.
Look at Halle Berry. A skill at acting is what landed her in blockbuster movies NOT a quota system. Samuel L Jackson was the BEST person for the role of Nick Fury (a white role) NOT because of quotas but because he was the best actor.
ScarJo has a list of top movies requiring very similar roles to that of the Major, I can think of no one more qualified for the part.
Where did I advocate a quota system? You mention quota's several times and responded to my post, so please point out there I said there should be a quota system.
If you can't, please acknowledge it and admit that I'm not advocating a quota system and that you railing against one (at least to me) is b$@%~+*$ and inventing an argument that I wasn't making.
Non-white actors shouldn't just be cast for roles that require someone to be non-white, but if Hollywood isn't going to cast them in anything else, they should at least get all of those roles.
Is this comment NOT advocating that to be fair whites should be barred from all non-white roles but non-whites should also be given white roles. That IS the quota system.
Am I reading too much into what you said? It sure looks like you want a quota system.
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All I know is my support or dislike of this movie will depend on the STORY not the actors.Good stories are often ruined by bad actors.
A million lols at the Halle Berry being a good actress comment while I'm here.
Make it two million lols for Halle Berry....
and a couple for not understanding what racism means.
Non-white actors shouldn't just be cast for roles that require someone to be non-white, but if Hollywood isn't going to cast them in anything else, they should at least get all of those roles.Is this comment NOT advocating that to be fair whites should be barred from all non-white roles but non-whites should also be given white roles. That IS the quota system.
Am I reading too much into what you said? It sure looks like you want a quota system.
Okay, I get it. You think black-face is okay. Or am I reading too much into your position?
I'll defend the quota system if you defend black-face. If you aren't comfortable with that, then lets not read things into the other person's position.
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Black face?! Samuel Jackson and Halle Berry = black face?! How?
Black face is a comical and insulting portrayal. I can't think of a single instance where it would be appropriate.
So you are withdrawing your comment? Good. Then there isn't any conflict. Because I fail to see how barring someone from a role because of RACE is good.