Drahliana Moonrunner |
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The fact that Scarlett Johanson is playing a character named Mokoto Kusangi in a movie where the bodies can be made to order with whatever enhancements and features you can afford or desire makes me a little more understanding of the whitewashing that's being done here. As long as it's something that tangentially addressed in the movie itself at some point. Especially when in the real world asians eschewing their natural facial features in favor of more European looking ones is a real thing that happens in OUR actual world.
Save that if you look real honestly into it, with the context of all the other whitewashing that's been going on, from the history of Bruce Lee's Kung Fu TV series, to the replacement of the Ancient One with a white woman, you'll see that such theorising had nothing to do with the actress selection for the film.
And to toss the concept right back at you... with all that possibility, why did the anime character not flip into various bodies of gender, race, and nationality? Most likely because her identity is so riddled with instability, her self image as a japanese female is that much more important. Just as gender identity is a big issue to most of us, whether cis or trans.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually Motoko has a history of swapping into other races, genders, and nationalities. Her preferred body is a Japanese female but she has been a male Hispanic terrorist from Central America, a Japanese male, and a blonde woman at other times either off camera or briefly.
But those are at best temporary disguises.. Her preferred body is preferred for a basic psychological reason. Her other bodies are no more significant to her identity than Batman occasionally disguising himself as a hobo, or Alfred Pennyworth's rare donning of the Bat costume.
I'm pretty sure that market research didn't even consider casting a male Mexican for the role.
p-sto |
Aranna wrote:Actually Motoko has a history of swapping into other races, genders, and nationalities. Her preferred body is a Japanese female but she has been a male Hispanic terrorist from Central America, a Japanese male, and a blonde woman at other times either off camera or briefly.But those are at best temporary disguises.. Her preferred body is preferred for a basic psychological reason. Her other bodies are no more significant to her identity than Batman occasionally disguising himself as a hobo, or Alfred Pennyworth's rare donning of the Bat costume.
I'm pretty sure that market research didn't even consider casting a male Mexican for the role.
Actually pretty much this. Almost every iteration of the series sees Motoko taking on another body either out of necessity because her primary body is destroyed or utility for infiltration purposes.
If I recall correctly there's a point in SAC where she's even asked why she didn't opt for a male body and she states a female body feels more appropriate for her and gives the same utility. In a character where appearance and identity are such central dialogues it's a fairly meaningful shift to alter her race. Unless the plot of the movie is planning to move the Individual Eleven story to America and have the team change appearance to fit in, it's hard to call the change trivial.
ShinHakkaider |
ShinHakkaider wrote:
The fact that Scarlett Johanson is playing a character named Mokoto Kusangi in a movie where the bodies can be made to order with whatever enhancements and features you can afford or desire makes me a little more understanding of the whitewashing that's being done here. As long as it's something that tangentially addressed in the movie itself at some point. Especially when in the real world asians eschewing their natural facial features in favor of more European looking ones is a real thing that happens in OUR actual world.
Save that if you look real honestly into it, with the context of all the other whitewashing that's been going on, from the history of Bruce Lee's Kung Fu TV series, to the replacement of the Ancient One with a white woman, you'll see that such theorising had nothing to do with the actress selection for the film.
And to toss the concept right back at you... with all that possibility, why did the anime character not flip into various bodies of gender, race, and nationality? Most likely because her identity is so riddled with instability, her self image as a japanese female is that much more important. Just as gender identity is a big issue to most of us, whether cis or trans.
Of course, I know why she was cast. She was cast because white people pretty much will go see other white people in movies and casting an asian actress as the lead of what's obviously going to be a big budget movie was a non-starter. They probably wasn't going to get this movie made at all WITHOUT the involvement of a white actress in the lead. That's obviously the reality.
Was I rationalizing because I thought that it was right? No. Maybe me saying "understanding of the white washing that's being done here" was not the best way to say it. It was more me seeing how they could play it to a less informed audience who may go see this movie and ask themselves "Why is Scarlett Johansen playing the part of a woman named Makoto Kusanagi?"
I know about the History of whitewashing in hollywood, pretty well. At this point it's 2016 and people are STILL doing it because the same attitudes remain. White actors are okay to play ANYTHING and for the most part other white people are okay with it (which is all that matters. Anything else is seen as SJW whining). Any other race CANT play anything either because it's unbelievable (See Idris Elba as James Bond) or white people start complaining about actors of color taking parts away from white actors (YES an actual complaint I've had someone say to me). At this point I'm kind of picky about what I support and what I don't and unless this movie looks and IS amazing? I'm going to just pass and re-watch my copies of GITS: SAC and GITS: SAC 2nd GIG instead.
Sorry for the miscommunication on my part.
Hitdice |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like this is going to be another Aeon Flux live action movie. Aeon Flux never made a whole lot of sense to begin with, but it had its own style. Like, style style. They eventually made a live action movie with Charlize Theron in the title role, and she could not rescue the movie, because it just didn't match the style of the source material.
I think Johansson is going to act her ass off as much as she can, but that won't help whatever scriptwriter they hire even beginning to comprehend Masamune Shirow's cyberpunk transcendental awareness zen koan graphic novel, if you see what I mean.
I guess I'm just saying I have mixed feelings about a live action version.
Hitdice |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?
John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.
Norman Osborne |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, the fact that Elba actually is from the UK would have given the Bond casting yet another wrinkle.
I don't care if he's black, white, yellow, red, or polka-dot...but the moment they cast an actor as Bond that isn't from the UK, they've made the series dead to me (and I suspect to a huge number of other people as well).
thejeff |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.
Hell you could have swapped Lando in the original or Mace in the prequels with little effect.
Other than removing some of the very few non-white humans in Star Wars. That's part of the problem with reversing it - too often white is the default and any non-white roles are only assigned when there's a specific reason. Makes white roles far more dominant than they need to be.
Another option - Jules in Pulp Fiction. I don't think anything would really change swapping him out for a white character. Mind you, swapping Samuel Jackson for anyone else in the role would be hard to face, but race isn't the issue there.
NenkotaMoon |
Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.
Second that.
NenkotaMoon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hitdice wrote:Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.Hell you could have swapped Lando in the original or Mace in the prequels with little effect.
Other than removing some of the very few non-white humans in Star Wars. That's part of the problem with reversing it - too often white is the default and any non-white roles are only assigned when there's a specific reason. Makes white roles far more dominant than they need to be.
Another option - Jules in Pulp Fiction. I don't think anything would really change swapping him out for a white character. Mind you, swapping Samuel Jackson for anyone else in the role would be hard to face, but race isn't the issue there.
I disagree with Lando being replaceable. He's the best mofo in the galaxy.
thejeff |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hitdice wrote:Of course, the fact that Elba actually is from the UK would have given the Bond casting yet another wrinkle.I don't care if he's black, white, yellow, red, or polka-dot...but the moment they cast an actor as Bond that isn't from the UK, they've made the series dead to me (and I suspect to a huge number of other people as well).
Not something I care about. As long as he can fake it.
There's this thing called acting, you see, where you pretend to be something you're not...Talonhawke |
Hitdice wrote:Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.Hell you could have swapped Lando in the original or Mace in the prequels with little effect.
Other than removing some of the very few non-white humans in Star Wars. That's part of the problem with reversing it - too often white is the default and any non-white roles are only assigned when there's a specific reason. Makes white roles far more dominant than they need to be.
Another option - Jules in Pulp Fiction. I don't think anything would really change swapping him out for a white character. Mind you, swapping Samuel Jackson for anyone else in the role would be hard to face, but race isn't the issue there.
Sorry let me rephrase i mean an existing character which is what we are talking about. Not a character that didn't exist prior to being cast and played.
ShinHakkaider |
So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?
How about you give us a list of prominent non-white characters and we'll go through it?
NenkotaMoon |
Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?How about you give us a list of prominent non-white characters and we'll go through it?
I like Tyler Perry
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
I couldn't care less about financial success...
Yes, but your livelihood doesn't depend on the ticket sales (as a bunch of people at Warner Bros. are finding out). The financial success or failure of a film does matter.
That said, Ming-Na Wen is not wrong. And, there are too few roles for non-white actors as it is. I'm sure we could found an Asian actress for the role, as someone above pointed out, sales in Asia are now a big part of Hollywood's income stream.
thejeff |
Sorry let me rephrase i mean an existing character which is what we are talking about. Not a character that didn't exist prior to being cast and played.
Yeah, that's the thing. See my above:
That's part of the problem with reversing it - too often white is the default and any non-white roles are only assigned when there's a specific reason. Makes white roles far more dominant than they need to be.
Especially if we're talking ones that have already been cast and played. The numbers are pretty scarce.
There's a bunch of black or other non-white comic characters, but most of the ones who've reached any prominence have their origins, concept and often names pretty well tied to their race - largely because the companies were basically trying fairly ineptly to diversify.
There are probably some anime characters that could be swapped without much problem - ones more fantasy or other non-earthly oriented rather than "We're set in Japan, but we're casting the protagonist as white".
thejeff |
I agree I can't think of of any, but I also can't think of too many in general who would work out as other ethnicity it tends to be a part of the character to me. I wouldn't want a white Falcon or Luke Cage anymore than an Asian Superman or Hispanic Punisher.
Note that ShinHakkaider's request wasn't for non-white characters you think could race swap, but just prominent non-white characters from existing works that have been made into movies who could even be candidates.
Leaving superheroes aside for the moment, how many black leading roles in fantasy/sf movies developed from books or other works can you name?
Grey Lensman |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Talonhawke wrote:I agree I can't think of of any, but I also can't think of too many in general who would work out as other ethnicity it tends to be a part of the character to me. I wouldn't want a white Falcon or Luke Cage anymore than an Asian Superman or Hispanic Punisher.Note that ShinHakkaider's request wasn't for non-white characters you think could race swap, but just prominent non-white characters from existing works that have been made into movies who could even be candidates.
Leaving superheroes aside for the moment, how many black leading roles in fantasy/sf movies developed from books or other works can you name?
IIRC, Briareos Hecatonchires from Appleseed is African. But since he is a full blown cyborg with no visible fleshy bits - he could easily be played by anyone if a film was ever made. Bonus relevance - Same author as Ghost in the Shell
Drahliana Moonrunner |
So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?
The question presupposes equivalent situations. The fact of the matter is, we simply don't have that many heroes who aren't white males. The lose of any of them due to racebending is therefore a significant issue.
And if we're talking about non-fiction, I certainly don't want to see any WASP portraying Malcom X, just as much as I'm sure you don't want to see Morgan Freeman playing George Washington.
ShinHakkaider |
thejeff wrote:IIRC, Briareos Hecatonchires from Appleseed is African. But since he is a full blown cyborg with no visible fleshy bits - he could easily be played by anyone if a film was ever made. Bonus relevance - Same author as Ghost in the ShellTalonhawke wrote:I agree I can't think of of any, but I also can't think of too many in general who would work out as other ethnicity it tends to be a part of the character to me. I wouldn't want a white Falcon or Luke Cage anymore than an Asian Superman or Hispanic Punisher.Note that ShinHakkaider's request wasn't for non-white characters you think could race swap, but just prominent non-white characters from existing works that have been made into movies who could even be candidates.
Leaving superheroes aside for the moment, how many black leading roles in fantasy/sf movies developed from books or other works can you name?
Yes but as you stated there's NOTHING visually that identifies him as such so he's a really bad example to use. Not to mention that the times we've seen him in flashbacks in movies or animation he STILL looks like a slightly tanned white d00d...
Alceste008 |
First a disclaimer, I am a huge Ghost in the Shell fan. The major is a cyborg so her appearances can vary and have. Still, her favorite appearance is that of a Japanese female. I am still very interested in the movie despite this. I just really want the movie to be good so that more Ghost in the Shell gets produced.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Talonhawke wrote:So just gonna ask then since its not an issue for certain characters to be race swapped, can anyone name a non-white character they think could be swapped without it affecting the characters identity?John Boyega in The Force Awakens; Finn's race had no effect on the narrative whatsoever.
Sure had a lot on certain highly vocal members of the fanbase.
Dover Pro |
Oh, well. I thought I'd weigh in on this one. I've been watching anime since 1965. While I was initially interested in Ghost in the Shell from Shirow's description of it in the back of one of the American Appleseed releases, when I saw the actual Ghost in the Shell movie, I was...displeased. Studio I.G. has been consistent in mucking up the material from Ghost in the Shell. They're one of the few anime studios whose work I refuse to patronize.
Then there was my actually reading the Ghost in the Shell manga. As far as I can tell, it's a bog-standard cyborg police procedural which ends in a train-wreck of noodling about identity.
The only person whose work I can tolerate on the movie is the scriptwriter. I've forgotten her name, but she has one good movie to her credit.
Yeah, pretty much, "You kids get off my lawn!" ;)
Pan |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just hope it's more akin to Stand Alone Complex (with a good mix of action and intrigue), and less like the Ghost in the Shell movie (that tended to feel like a freshman philosophy class being taught from Isaac Asimov novels).
Flip that around for me!
Though i'm guessing you will be very pleased when this comes out. Along with the whitewashing i'm predicting a simplification of the writing for a general audience. I think the comparison to the Aeon flux film is about what i'm expecting here. Hope I'm wrong tho!
GreyWolfLord |
Well, it will be interesting to see if their whitewashing will turn out like Dragon Ball Z or not.
I'm voting it will turn out like the DBZ movie...but who knows.
Whtiewashing is NOT always the correct answer to doing things, and sometimes it just succeeds in upsetting the very people that could make or trash your film.
The biggest problem, is if you are willing to whitewash, you are willing to change all sorts of things rather than stay true to the source materials.
Pan |
The biggest problem, is if you are willing to whitewash, you are willing to change all sorts of things rather than stay true to the source materials.
Yeap. I think part of the problem is the industry is set up in a place thats too damn big to risk. Its damn near impossible to run a small time project with a modest budget anymore. They aim for super high blockbuster every single time. Look at Sup vs Bat it made a killing but they are crying about it not making a double killing. This whole bit just enables the whitewahsing because you need a blockbuster star like scarjo since some television star just wont cut it. Also, wirting will be bad because they have to make a film for the every man. Hell guess dems da breaks.
Grey Lensman |
GreyWolfLord wrote:Yeap. I think part of the problem is the industry is set up in a place thats too damn big to risk. Its damn near impossible to run a small time project with a modest budget anymore. They aim for super high blockbuster every single time. Look at Sup vs Bat it made a killing but they are crying about it not making a double killing. This whole bit just enables the whitewahsing because you need a blockbuster star like scarjo since some television star just wont cut it. Also, wirting will be bad because they have to make a film for the every man. Hell guess dems da breaks.
The biggest problem, is if you are willing to whitewash, you are willing to change all sorts of things rather than stay true to the source materials.
The hype machine of intended blockbusters practically guarantees the first killing, that's why not getting the second one feels like a failure to some. To not make the first one a film has to be abysmally bad AND nearly universally hated. And/or start gathering a lot of negative hype before it is released. Of course, getting a lot of negative hype pre-release, followed by a bad film is a pretty good way to be universally hated...
DSXMachina |
Hitdice wrote:Of course, the fact that Elba actually is from the UK would have given the Bond casting yet another wrinkle.I don't care if he's black, white, yellow, red, or polka-dot...but the moment they cast an actor as Bond that isn't from the UK, they've made the series dead to me (and I suspect to a huge number of other people as well).
*cough* George Lazenby *cough*
feytharn |
Norman Osborne wrote:*cough* George Lazenby *cough*Hitdice wrote:Of course, the fact that Elba actually is from the UK would have given the Bond casting yet another wrinkle.I don't care if he's black, white, yellow, red, or polka-dot...but the moment they cast an actor as Bond that isn't from the UK, they've made the series dead to me (and I suspect to a huge number of other people as well).
There are countries where you don't need to be native to be considered a citizen, you know ;-) aka. Mr. Lazenby has been a citizen of the UK for some time before he was cat as Bond.
Irontruth |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
h ends in a train-wreck of noodling about identity.
But it's the half-assedness of this noodling that I most desire. I want my GitS to sound like the screen writer learned everything about philosophy from grading high school papers on the subject.
I'm not kidding either, I actually want the half-formed philosophy lectures, they're my favorite part of GitS. Seriously.
Pan |
Dover Pro wrote:h ends in a train-wreck of noodling about identity.
But it's the half-assedness of this noodling that I most desire. I want my GitS to sound like the screen writer learned everything about philosophy from grading high school papers on the subject.
I'm not kidding either, I actually want the half-formed philosophy lectures, they're my favorite part of GitS. Seriously.
/fistbump
Ambrosia Slaad |
New trailer is out (Youtube, Apple)
I am a pretty hardcore fan of the anime, the original two movies, and both seasons of Standalone Complex. I think ScarJo and the other actors will do their best with what they were given, and I think the special effects will be passable. But from watching the trailer, I don't think the writers or director understand anything at all about what makes the Major work as a compelling character, nor why the source material so is fascinating. It looks like a designed-by-committee-of-Hollywood-beancounters' attempt to cash in on a franchise, the writers lightly skimming the cliff notes of the source material, and someone saying they should pack it full of tired Hollywood scifi cliches that are introduced but not explored.
Rating: D-/F+
Ambrosia Slaad |
Would it be whitewashing if it was a Korean as the lead?
The movie looks so bad storywise (like someone wanted to remake the last crappy Robocop movie and bolted GitS flair onto it), that I probably won't even pay to rent this at Redbox.
The whitewashing in the trailer looks particularly glaring when all but one of the team characters is played by European/American actors, while the Asian actors are merely set dressing. I think Korean or other ethnicity actors could play the Major, Aramaki, Batou, etc. but it wouldn't be GitS... because one of the foundation elements of the story is how the Japanese characters are all reacting, adapting/not adapting, and coping/not coping with fundamental changes to their already tech-savvy Japanese society by huge advancements in technology.
But at least a Korean/Chinese/Thai/etc. lead would be an improvement over this. This movie just looks like another damn "white Americans gonna save the day" cowboying bullsh!t.
Freehold DM |
Star Platinum wrote:Would it be whitewashing if it was a Korean as the lead?The movie looks so bad storywise (like someone wanted to remake the last crappy Robocop movie and bolted GitS flair onto it), that I probably won't even pay to rent this at Redbox.
The whitewashing in the trailer looks particularly glaring when all but one of the team characters is played by European/American actors, while the Asian actors are merely set dressing. I think Korean or other ethnicity actors could play the Major, Aramaki, Batou, etc. but it wouldn't be GitS... because one of the foundation elements of the story is how the Japanese characters are all reacting, adapting/not adapting, and coping/not coping with fundamental changes to their already tech-savvy Japanese society by huge advancements in technology.
But at least a Korean/Chinese/Thai/etc. lead would be an improvement over this. This movie just looks like another damn "white Americans gonna save the day" cowboying bullsh!t.
hey!
I liked the last robocop movie! It was far and away better than robocop 3!!!
Aranna |
So they changed it up ...
it sounds like this will be yet another version of the major. It wouldn't be the first time they have altered the major or her backstory so I shouldn't be surprised but I was hoping they would run with the most popular version used in the SAC series. Still I was excited to see their use of iconic imagery. And it looks like they won't shy away from action. Looking forward to it still.
Irontruth |
Star Platinum wrote:Would it be whitewashing if it was a Korean as the lead?The movie looks so bad storywise (like someone wanted to remake the last crappy Robocop movie and bolted GitS flair onto it), that I probably won't even pay to rent this at Redbox.
The whitewashing in the trailer looks particularly glaring when all but one of the team characters is played by European/American actors, while the Asian actors are merely set dressing. I think Korean or other ethnicity actors could play the Major, Aramaki, Batou, etc. but it wouldn't be GitS... because one of the foundation elements of the story is how the Japanese characters are all reacting, adapting/not adapting, and coping/not coping with fundamental changes to their already tech-savvy Japanese society by huge advancements in technology.
But at least a Korean/Chinese/Thai/etc. lead would be an improvement over this. This movie just looks like another damn "white Americans gonna save the day" cowboying bullsh!t.
The big thing that immediately struck me from the VO dialogue is that the Major is unclear about who/what they are. Maybe it's been a while, but I never got the sense that they were uncertain, questioning, yes, but never uncertain. Motoko is decisive and active, even if they're just absorbing information, they do it proactively. Certainly events should conspire that forces Motoko to ask questions and dig for answers, but always as a strong and confident character.
The villains of the GitS always asked pointed questions of Major Kusanagi that suggest to the audience a deeper truth, and the Major always surprises the antagonist with an answer they didn't think was possible, but doesn't necessarily conform to the audiences expectations either.
If Kusanagi is just led by the nose by the Puppetmaster and kills him to stop the questions... I'll be severely disappointed (and agree that the writers don't have a clue what GitS is about).
Irontruth |
As for whitewashing, it's an awful trend and needs to go away.
It could actually be more interesting to set the movie in a similar perversion of NYC and base it off of American culture if they really feel the need to "Americanize" it. Don't give me The Seven Samurai with one white actor (or replacing just the seven with white actors), just go ahead and make The Magnificent Seven.
knightnday |
Ill give it a chance. I cant knock it until I rock it. The trailer looks like it will at least be a fun ride even if the source material was flushed.
I agree, and I'll treat it as I do other "remakes" or re-imaginings, like the new Ghostbusters or any of the varied super hero movies, movies based on books, comics, and so forth.
They are their own thing and often deviate in some or many ways, and can quite often be good in their own rights. Plus, the original medium is always around in case you don't like it or don't want it. :)