Character Caught stealing threatened to be killed / kicked from party [Help]


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Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I'm new here. First post.

This happened Sunday. New to the party Tiefling Gunslinger, previous character retired, killed the final boss in an evil gangs' hideout, gold and gems all over. Tiefling is new to the party but needed three of the gems for himself and is greedy. He tries to take those three gems but gets caught, he agrees to split the loot evenly with rest of party. Another character(druid), outside of the room, meta games(along with OOC threats to kill my character) and comes in having heard my character is trying to steal gems; even though at this point he agreed to split it all evenly.

Druid is still mad, we appraise all of the gems and we split it evenly. My tiefling still needs a certain gem and pays for it. Druid tells tiefling to not come back after trying to steal gems or he'll be killed, aka I'll have to reroll a new character, which I don't want to do AGAIN.

I got mad because some other OOC things the druids' player said to me and just left after my character left the scene.

So, what should I do as a player in this situation? Should I return to the session and still play my tiefling and hash out the details? Or should I reroll a character an be prepared to play that character? or just not return?(I don't like this option because I only play Pathfinder with this friend group.)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How about you have an open and honest discussion with the rest of the party about how things should be handled. Be prepared to retire the character, or change his attitude to be more supportive of the team.
Discuss with the druid player why you don't want to PVP.


so whats the rest of the party like if you have a paladin or other "goody goody" you might be able to go for the whole oh I have repented and see the error of my ways spiel and get him/her on your side in case of druid shenanigans if it dosent work you'll at least get the satisfaction of seeing the druid get gutted for his actions. other option off the top of my head are hiring other party member as a bodyguard and using previous goodwill to get other members of the party as backup
you might also want to defend your reasoning for needing the gem(need not be real reason for needing gem unless some form of truth magic/potion/good perception check is in play) really ham up the backstory ex need it to pay the ransom for your sister say the sister also runs a orphanage need it to feed your family make it your whole village is going to starve unless you buy grain and other essentials just don't make them to grandiose lies.

if you manage to make it through and are let back in forgo reward from the next adventures or so to show your really sorry. edit if all else fails hire some npc goons and go down swinging


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Do not steal from the party. It is not cool and always leads to bad feelings all over.


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This is a perfect description of a toxic group. And at least some of it is your own making.

You're rapidly heading into a situation where you and the other players are simply not going to be viable. You and the other players need to work out some form of covenant, and you'll have to STICK to your end of it.

Trust is not easily built once betrayed.


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Different groups handle this differently. Some get mad(OOC) and not just IC.

Killing your current character won't stop you from doing it again, so it's better to discuss the social norms for this group.

Personally stealing from a bunch of people whose special talents revolve around ending life is a bad idea. If you can't afford the gems then ask the party can you just owe them. That way next time they just take the cost out of your share of the loot.

PS: Kender-like activities don't go over well with many groups.


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This is why PvP stuff like attacking OR stealing from other PCs is strictly banned in our group. Instantly your character is now a NPC if you do it even once. There ARE groups that like PvP, but in my experience most fall apart once it starts happening.

From the sound of it you started a new PC and immediately started PvP against the group by trying to steal from them. Most groups would have killed you outright and kept your share. So they are being very lenient on you. I would keep this in mind and TALK to them. Do they like PvP or did you overstep a boundary? By the druid's reaction I am guessing they don't want PvP. Be prepared to make a new character or adjust your current one to better play with this team.


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Normally I would say dont steal from the party but this seems to go into grudge holding pvp- after all, once caught, you did pay for the gems. I dunno. This seems to be getting ugly.


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Before we begin, some terms for clarity:

- "OP" can mean either "Opening Post" or "Opening Poster" (depending on context)

- "PvP" means "Player versus Player" and is generally associated with in-character violence and killing

Hopefully, we're now all speaking the same language... :D

Man.

While I totally agree, by the way, that stealing from the group was a terrible idea (and the OP is currently experiencing the consequences), I wish to point out the fact that the OP likely didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

I've seen several players think, "Well, this is just a harmless idea; after all, it's what my character would do, and I'm not actually hurting anyone." and, in fact, it's true - cheating on the gems is literally not hurting anyone. This, then, comes from an RP-focused perspective. Heck, I've even had a table where no one minded the Halfling stealing their stuff (and thought it was funny)... so long as he kept it to pocket change and silly, mild humor*.

The problem, and this is the thing the OP needs to understand, is that many don't - and can't - see it this way.

In Pathfinder, intentionally or not, people see their stuff as the equivalent of their life. And... this isn't that far off. A character's power (and thus survival-factor) is directly linked (through an elaborate means) to their wealth. Hence, even if you don't realize it, stealing from them is, in effect, harming them.

By taking something you "needed" for a reason - even if it's a "good" in-character reason - you are, intentionally or not, effectively attacking the other characters and engaging in PvP.

I would suggest that the players can and should have handled the situation better, but, on your end, you need to - out of character - apologize and explain that you simply didn't understand the character of the table; that your table-culture, for whatever reason**, differed from their own. Then ask what are some of the rules they have for playing, what kinds of things they consider PvP, and so on. Then explain that you'll have your character behave accordingly.

Explain, to the group, the problems that you're having with this and that you genuinely want to play and have fun with the people here, and are not looking for an antagonistic experience.

Be aware that some people may well still be angry and might say angry things. Don't get angry back... ignore it and let it slide. And if you've proven your (personal) integrity to the group, and the Druid-player kills your current character anyway? Ignore him. Either he'll be shamed by the rest of the players, or you'll likely want to find a new group.

Peace and good gaming, sir-or-madame. Hope that helps!

* To be clear, they were of a level where pocket change no longer mattered, and he was just confirming various stereotypes and jokes from within the game, as a Halfling. He was otherwise actively helpful, and had a mild, good nature about everything and the other PCs knew that I wouldn't punish them for this guy's deeds. Earlier, the same table nearly murdered another PC for doing similar because it wasn't a joke and was a serious amount.

** Whether inexperience, a table with a different local culture/social contract/ideas, you just read stories like that, or "I didn't think it would be unpleasant out-of-character" could all lead to different understandings.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Normally I would say dont steal from the party but this seems to go into grudge holding pvp- after all, once caught, you did pay for the gems. I dunno. This seems to be getting ugly.

"Once caught, you did pay for" the stuff you stole, isn't going to win you a lot of friends in any real situation.

It's certainly not how the law has ever treated theft.
After all, it doesn't introduce any incentive not to steal: Sometimes you'd get away with and get extra loot, the rest of time you'd just give it back and there'd be no foul.

Beyond that, I agree with much of the rest of the response here: Deal with this out of character. Decide with the other players what's acceptable behavior and how PvP should be handled. And make no mistake, stealing from the party is PvP - unless explicitly exempted by the group.

If you don't like the terms the rest of the group wants to play by, you'll need to find another group. Sad, but it happens.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I thought OP stood for original poster.


Also. Either way, really. :D


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captain yesterday wrote:
I thought OP stood for original poster.

Not to mention over powered. :P

Or Ocean Pacific... Maybe it's time for some new acronyms, these are getting crowded.

Dark Archive

Veylo V wrote:

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I'm new here. First post.

This happened Sunday. New to the party Tiefling Gunslinger, previous character retired, killed the final boss in an evil gangs' hideout, gold and gems all over. Tiefling is new to the party but needed three of the gems for himself and is greedy. He tries to take those three gems but gets caught, he agrees to split the loot evenly with rest of party. Another character(druid), outside of the room, meta games(along with OOC threats to kill my character) and comes in having heard my character is trying to steal gems; even though at this point he agreed to split it all evenly.

Druid is still mad, we appraise all of the gems and we split it evenly. My tiefling still needs a certain gem and pays for it. Druid tells tiefling to not come back after trying to steal gems or he'll be killed, aka I'll have to reroll a new character, which I don't want to do AGAIN.

I got mad because some other OOC things the druids' player said to me and just left after my character left the scene.

So, what should I do as a player in this situation? Should I return to the session and still play my tiefling and hash out the details? Or should I reroll a character an be prepared to play that character? or just not return?(I don't like this option because I only play Pathfinder with this friend group.)

<bad advice> You could always kill the party and take the loot yourself. After all, your character barely knows these guys and some tree hugger threatened to kill him. Bonus points if you wait until they are asleep first. For additional material, check out "Treasure of the Sierra Madre". </bad advice>


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

As a general rule, avoid playing characters that work against the party like this. A lot of people who play evil characters fall into this trap. Your character can have their own agenda but always make sure your character could conceivably play nice with others if they try to.

On a note more specific to your situation:
Greedy people aren't necessarily stupid. If they plan to stick around for long periods of time with a group of people who could easily overpower them, you can safely bet that they'll avoid pissing them off by stealing from them. You can still play a greedy character, just keep your embezzlement/larceny to targets outside of your immediate friends.


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What's more important to you....stealing the other character's wealth for the benefit of your character (playing in character) or you retaining friends and a place at the table (playing out of character)? Prioritize. If you answer that stealing is more important than you as a player having friends and a place at their gaming table...you don't deserve the chair your sitting in.


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EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
What's more important to you....stealing the other character's wealth for the benefit of your character (playing in character) or you retaining friends and a place at the table (playing out of character)? Prioritize. If you answer that stealing is more important than you as a player having friends and a place at their gaming table...you don't deserve the chair your sitting in.

This is accurate, but if the OP is read, he already has prioritized.

The problem is, now, that although he has prioritized the group and game, he is still having trouble (at least as of the OP) from people (or at least one) unable or unwilling to let go.

Dude made the wrong choice, and went, "Oh, oops, sorry. I get it now; no more of that stuff." and wants to game. At least that's how it comes off.


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I think you are reading things into it Tacticslion. I didn't hear the words of someone who was sorry at all as I read that. It sounds to me like he is frustrated at the animosity in the group toward HIM and not at all realizing HE is the cause of it.


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Tacticslion wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
What's more important to you....stealing the other character's wealth for the benefit of your character (playing in character) or you retaining friends and a place at the table (playing out of character)? Prioritize. If you answer that stealing is more important than you as a player having friends and a place at their gaming table...you don't deserve the chair your sitting in.

This is accurate, but if the OP is read, he already has prioritized.

The problem is, now, that although he has prioritized the group and game, he is still having trouble (at least as of the OP) from people (or at least one) unable or unwilling to let go.

Dude made the wrong choice, and went, "Oh, oops, sorry. I get it now; no more of that stuff." and wants to game. At least that's how it comes off.

Hmmm. That's not at all how it came off to me, though you could certainly be right.

My reading was more of an in character "Oops, I got caught. Of course I'll pay for these." With no out of character, "Oh, I didn't get how we're playing here. No more of that."

That he's focusing on the other character's reactions and how they're metagaming and OOC suggests he wants to handle this entirely in-character. Which rightly leads to the other characters threatening and not trusting the one they caught stealing from them, even if he gave the stuff back once caught.

If I'm wrong and he has agreed out of character to stop stealing from the group, that's a different story. Also, being an out of character agreement, they'd be perfectly justified in kicking him from the game if he keeps it up afterwards.


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You may not want to PVP, but stealing from the party counts as PVP.

While the druid player may be a jerk with his actions, you were also being a jerk.

You are deceiving in character and expecting the players not to be upset about it. This is a cooperative game, and you're not playing it as such.

I suggest you apologize for your actions, explain that you were also upset but now you've had time to think about the situation and taken time to understand the issue from their side, and that now you understand those types of action aren't acceptable in character. Promise you wont try this type of action again.

If you did that you might be allowed back to the group. And I mean you the player, nothing to do with your character.

Think about it this way, if you were watching a wild west movie and somebody did what your character did, what would happen?

They'd be incredibly lucky the group didn't kill them immediately. Assuming they didn't kill them, the group definitely wouldn't be traveling with the character anymore. And certainly wouldn't trust the character to protect or help them in combat.

You may think it's a cute little joke, but if I have a friend steal from me I'm not going to trust that person with my life. Or trust that they wont steal again. They certainly wont be my friend.

Alternatively, if your character had talked to the other characters about needing the gems for *insert reason* and offered to purchase them with your share of the loot or to pay them back at a later time it is reasonable the other characters would have shared with you. Instead you went behind their back, and when you got caught you "apologized". Well, no one accepts those sorts of apologies. We can't know if you're really sorry you did it, but from the outside it only looks like you're sorry you got caught.


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I think people are assuming too much with this poster. We don't know if other PCs have stolen stuff in the past. We don't know if PVP fighting has happened in the past. We don't know if the player that made the character spoke with the GM and explained that his character might steal, etc.

If the PC was able to attempt to steal, then there was at least passive acceptance of the tactic from the GM.

So rather than try to paint the poster as a bad person IRL, let's just say that in general PVP is a bad idea as many people are unable to separate IC from OOC.

Bottom line, have an OOC conversation with the group and figure out what is acceptable behavior at that table, and then abide by it.


thejeff wrote:

Hmmm. That's not at all how it came off to me, though you could certainly be right.

My reading was more of an in character "Oops, I got caught. Of course I'll pay for these." With no out of character, "Oh, I didn't get how we're playing here. No more of that."

That he's focusing on the other character's reactions and how they're metagaming and OOC suggests he wants to handle this entirely in-character. Which rightly leads to the other characters threatening and not trusting the one they caught stealing from them, even if he gave the stuff back once caught.

If I'm wrong and he has agreed out of character to stop stealing from the group, that's a different story. Also, being an out of character agreement, they'd be perfectly justified in kicking him from the game if he keeps it up afterwards.

I can see that, but let me point out:

Veylo V wrote:

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I'm new here. First post.

This happened Sunday. New to the party Tiefling Gunslinger, previous character retired, killed the final boss in an evil gangs' hideout, gold and gems all over. Tiefling is new to the party but needed three of the gems for himself and is greedy. He tries to take those three gems but gets caught, he agrees to split the loot evenly with rest of party. Another character(druid), outside of the room, meta games(along with OOC threats to kill my character) and comes in having heard my character is trying to steal gems; even though at this point he agreed to split it all evenly.

Druid is still mad, we appraise all of the gems and we split it evenly. My tiefling still needs a certain gem and pays for it. Druid tells tiefling to not come back after trying to steal gems or he'll be killed, aka I'll have to reroll a new character, which I don't want to do AGAIN.

I got mad because some other OOC things the druids' player said to me and just left after my character left the scene.

So, what should I do as a player in this situation? Should I return to the session and still play my tiefling and hash out the details? Or should I reroll a character an be prepared to play that character? or just not return?(I don't like this option because I only play Pathfinder with this friend group.)

Bold things seem to tell a different story - while he notes what his character did, he also agreed to do things the right way.

Again, I can understand a different impression, it was just mine that "split the loot" meant, you know, "split the loot" - a set of actions he continued to perform thereafter.

But I just want to point out the fact that people are taking an exceptionally harsh view of (and strong statements against) what amounts to a play-style difference.

There is, intentionally or not, a very aggressive tone from posters here, both in- and out-of character. This really doesn't seem conductive of, "Let's reason with, and help this person understand." and comes off more like, "I hate people who play like you; do what I want to you to."

While we all have personal preferences, and this does need to be handled ooc (as the druid's player took it ooc), the... strong wording of some of the arguments used to "persuade" the OP seems less persuasive and more shaming.

But that's my read, and, as noted, different people can mean very different things from how anyone reads stuff, so I suppose one could take me as a reminder to be welcoming (even in firmness of assertion) to a new poster rather than trying to tell him, "You're bad and should feel bad."

Make sense?

:)

Scarab Sages

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Tacticslion wrote:
Dude made the wrong choice, and went, "Oh, oops, sorry. I get it now; no more of that stuff." and wants to game. At least that's how it comes off.

You'll have to point me to where the OP said that. All I see is, "Oh, you caught me. Fine, I'll split it." Nowhere did the OP say they agreed not to do it again.

And this isn't all OOC. The Druid (IC) doesn't trust him and doesn't want him back. That's seems like a pretty reasonable position when someone joins your party and immediately starts stealing from you.

ETA:

Quote:
it was just mine that "split the loot" meant, you know, "split the loot" - a set of actions he continued to perform thereafter.

Fair enough. I don't read it that way; I read it as agreeing to split that pile of loot evenly. We'd need more info from the OP to understand what the actual OOC and IC agreements were.

Regarding Tormsskull's points, we'd need more info there. But that really only addresses the OOC issues. I don't see how it's unreasonable that the Druid won't trust the new guy who immediately proved himself untrustworthy..

(Although if they work this all out OOC, it could make for some fun redemption roleplay.)


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TomParker wrote:
And this isn't all OOC. The Druid (IC) doesn't trust him and doesn't want him back.

To be fair, the druid's character wasn't in the room and couldn't have known IC that anything had been stolen.

This definitely seems like more of a inter-player issue to me. It seems like the druid's player was OOC spoiling for a fight.

OP and the druid's player need to hug it out.


Insapateh wrote:
TomParker wrote:
And this isn't all OOC. The Druid (IC) doesn't trust him and doesn't want him back.

To be fair, the druid's character wasn't in the room and couldn't have known IC that anything had been stolen.

This definitely seems like more of a inter-player issue to me. It seems like the druid's player was OOC spoiling for a fight.

OP and the druid's player need to hug it out.

Not clear to me. Someone caught him. Just because the druid wasn't present, doesn't mean they weren't informed.

If the druid's player was OOC spoiling for a fight, the OP was OOC starting one by stealing.

Once the OP and the druid's player "hug it out", what next? If the OP's character gives up stealing from the group, everything's cool. If not?

Frankly, I'd probably be trying to take it OOC. I've been in games where we tried to handle these things IC. The thief player had a great deal of fun sneaking around and making excuses when we got suspicious, since we could never catch him quite red-handed enough to satisfy the GM that it wasn't metagaming to just kill him. The rest of us just got more frustrated and irritated. He loved it. It wasn't the game we wanted to play.


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This is why PVP almost never works for a campaign. The OP is going to have to talk to the druid, the GM and the group OOC to resolve this situation. I do not know why the OP thought stealing would be acceptable but the fall out from that action is exactly why you just don't do it.

Shadow Lodge

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Why you guys talking about a guy who ain't here?

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Veylo V wrote:

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I'm new here. First post.

This happened Sunday. New to the party Tiefling Gunslinger, previous character retired, killed the final boss in an evil gangs' hideout, gold and gems all over. Tiefling is new to the party but needed three of the gems for himself and is greedy. He tries to take those three gems but gets caught, he agrees to split the loot evenly with rest of party. Another character(druid), outside of the room, meta games(along with OOC threats to kill my character) and comes in having heard my character is trying to steal gems; even though at this point he agreed to split it all evenly.

Druid is still mad, we appraise all of the gems and we split it evenly. My tiefling still needs a certain gem and pays for it. Druid tells tiefling to not come back after trying to steal gems or he'll be killed, aka I'll have to reroll a new character, which I don't want to do AGAIN.

I got mad because some other OOC things the druids' player said to me and just left after my character left the scene.

So, what should I do as a player in this situation? Should I return to the session and still play my tiefling and hash out the details? Or should I reroll a character an be prepared to play that character? or just not return?(I don't like this option because I only play Pathfinder with this friend group.)

Veylo, mind you, as a GM, I am going by what you shared only, not knowing the other player who played the druid or other party members. However, if your alignment and personality is set on theft, you should role play the character to your disposition. Now, mind you, as a player, you should also be aware of the other players and how they are toward this type of character.

1) I would sit down with the GM outside the session and discuss why you had the player do what they did. If the GM is aware of your character's personality, back story and greedy nature, and is okay with it, then there should be no problem there.
2) If the players are playing good alignment or are more controlling, they need to weigh out from the beginning whether your character is a good fit. Most should be open minded towards this. If it doesn't endanger the party, but is just annoying, that is no reason to kick your character out.
3) If you know your fellow players, also be aware of their hot buttons. You can't control these, but when you design a character to play with them, be aware of this and try not to design a player that will automatically cause party conflict.
4) However, players need to have some flexibility to let you play a character of your own design.

It's a tough one. All you can do is talk with them. If they are hostile towards your and your plea, then you need to decide if the group is right for you or no.


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thejeff wrote:
Not clear to me. Someone caught him. Just because the druid wasn't present, doesn't mean they weren't informed.

The OP says the druid player meta-gamed to come in and get involved. While not exactly open-and-shut, I interpreted that to mean that he was acting on OOC info.

Quote:
If the druid's player was OOC spoiling for a fight, the OP was OOC starting one by stealing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying anything OP did was right. I'm just saying he doesn't seem to be the only one in the wrong.

Quote:

Once the OP and the druid's player "hug it out", what next? If the OP's character gives up stealing from the group, everything's cool. If not?

Frankly, I'd probably be trying to take it OOC. I've been in games where we tried to handle these things IC. The thief player had a great deal of fun sneaking around and making excuses when we got suspicious, since we could never catch him quite red-handed enough to satisfy the GM that it wasn't metagaming to just kill him. The rest of us just got more frustrated and irritated. He loved it. It wasn't the game we wanted to play.

Absolutely agree!

By hug it out, I thought I was implying, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way that both players (hell, the whole group) needed to sit down and talk through their expectations around various levels of PVP, which the theft definitely qualifies as. I just think that there may be some other underlying issue which the OP and the druid's player need to hash out in more depth than the general group talk, and it may be best if that were done without the presence of the rest of the group. Although the DM may be in a situation where it might be better if he moderated the chat so some extent. And not all DMs would be happy to do that. It also shouldn't necessarily be a DMs job.

And your experience seems to be more of a regular occurrence. From the story in the OP, I can only assume that this was a one off thing, especially since it was anew character. I can see why your party were frustrated, but if it was one off, I think the druid's player seriously overreacted.


TOZ wrote:
Why you guys talking about a guy who ain't here?

There's no point in talking about someone if they're around to defend themselves.

Plus, it's not like he's the only guy that's ever had the experience.

Anyway, it's not like nobody in the world ever discussed the motivations and actions of a fictional character. Does that make it pointless because they can't add anything new on account of not existing? Sure, the creator can clarify certain things, but only to certain English Lit students who don't say the author might as well be dead for all their opinion matters.

The thread would be just as useful a discussion if it started with 'Once upon a time...'


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A point regarding alignment: A good character will not steal. A neutral or evil character will not steal from the party he's in, because doing so is not in his best interests. Unless he's planning on leaving the party immediately.

OTOH, a kleptomaniac can't help himself, whatever his alignment. :-)


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Insapateh wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Why you guys talking about a guy who ain't here?

There's no point in talking about someone if they're around to defend themselves.

Plus, it's not like he's the only guy that's ever had the experience.

Anyway, it's not like nobody in the world ever discussed the motivations and actions of a fictional character. Does that make it pointless because they can't add anything new on account of not existing? Sure, the creator can clarify certain things, but only to certain English Lit students who don't say the author might as well be dead for all their opinion matters.

The thread would be just as useful a discussion if it started with 'Once upon a time...'

Of course, now every thread I start will begin with "Once upon a time..." Or "it was a dark and stormy night...."


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I know: "It's what my character would do!"- but who designed that character, gave him his alignment and his motivations?

Dont design a jerk. Dont play a jerk. Dont play with jerks.

Sit down and talk this out like adults.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

When I was in the Army, we started stories with "this is no s**t..." :-)

Grand Lodge

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"No s#**, there I was..." :)


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Once upon a time, in construction we started every story with "you wouldn't believe what this one a#+#!@$ did..."

Silver Crusade

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In high school, we start every story with "You're never gonna guess..."

Sovereign Court

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Ed Reppert wrote:

A point regarding alignment: A good character will not steal. A neutral or evil character will not steal from the party he's in, because doing so is not in his best interests. Unless he's planning on leaving the party immediately.

OTOH, a kleptomaniac can't help himself, whatever his alignment. :-)

Chaotic good gets equated with Robin Hood ... I believe there was theft involved in the Robin Hood tales. ;)

Alignment really does not apply, nor should it. What does apply is what the players and GM are comfortable with re: play style. If players are fine with PCs having light fingers, that's fine, as long as it is understood OOC that it will be occurring and IC it is handled appropriately. Two of the groups I play with have no issue with it, but we also don't let it get out of hand. Two other groups prefer to avoid the potential issues. End result is all groups are a blast to play with due to clear communication of player expectations of what will be acceptable within the group.

Bottom line is any gaming group should make clear among all participants the expectations of player and PC behavior. Failure to do so will inevitably lead to conflict that will either be overcome or lead to one or more folks leaving the group.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
zylphryx wrote:
Chaotic good gets equated with Robin Hood ... I believe there was theft involved in the Robin Hood tales. ;)

Nah. That was straight up recovery of stolen goods. Taxation is theft. And Robin Hood was a Libertarian. :-)


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I feel like I'm sticking my head in a noose by saying this ... but I don't see this as being a problem that should have escalated to this level.

However, I also acknowledge that not all groups function the same way.

PvP is an integral part of any game I run. That's not to say that it should necessarily happen, but if there is a reason for it, then it happens. I do not block the players from engaging in it. If they agree beforehand that they won't do it, I'll accept this as their wishes, but I will politely and vocally disagree.

PvP is a very useful tool, and it does not necessarily result in player death. Any action taken by one character to the detriment of another can be classified as PvP. Whether this is stealing, ratting someone you character doesn't like IC out to his arch enemy or the city guards in case he's done something wrong, turning around In Character and punching his toon in the face to start a bare-knuckle brawl because he did something that ticked your character off or yes ... having your character draw a weapon and trying to kill the offending git, are all viable actions in character because they are all things that could legitimately happen.

You play a greedy character, you say ... someone who would try to nick stuff from the other player characters.

Sure, then you play such a character. I've had that exact thing happen in several of my groups and yes, it can lead to hurt feelings when the other players can legitimately see that they are being scammed or stolen from, IC, but frankly, they are taking something that should remain In Character and letting it bleed over into Real Life, and that is never cool. Such players need to learn how to differentiate between IC and OOC, and not to equate the actions of a player character with the actions of a player. Because my character steals and murders, does not mean I would steal and murder.

So I would have no issue with a character being played that way.

However ...

If you play a character who actively acts to the detriment of the other party members, you have to be ready to face the music and you have to be ready to accept the direct consequences of your actions. If one of the other characters notices you stealing and decides that you're not worth having around, then tough ... deal with it. You made the choice to make a character who would do that sort of thing.

One of the, in my personal experience, most annoying tropes in RP is the idea that "everyone in the party loves each other like brothers and sisters". That we're all "best friends evah" and that consequently, you should accept everything the others do without protest.

Why don't you just make clones of each others' characters, then? Even best friends can argue. Even best friends can fall out and stop being friends. Marriages fall by the wayside, lovers leave one another, family disowns family. Why on EARTH (or on any fictional game-world of your choice) would this be different In Character?

Here's a counter-question for you:

You ask what you should do. Whether to make a new character or return with the tiefling and hash things out.

What I want to know is: why should the rest of the group accept the tiefling back after he basically starts his relationship with them by trying to steal from them? They don't even know him yet. For all they know, In Character, he just turned himself into an enemy.

In fact, why should ANY group EVER have to simply say "Oh, that's a player character. That means I can't tell him I don't want him around anymore"?

Of course your character can tell another player's character that. A character is perfectly free to act contrary to another character's best interests.

But doing so means you have to be prepared to deal with the fallout afterwards.

If you and your group can't figure out a way to separate IC from OOC, and that you therefore worry that this will lead to hurt feelings IRL, you have a serious problem right there. One which you need to work on before even considering playing with them again. Because THAT is a one way road to ToxiCity.

If you, as a group, feel that the only way to continue playing is to make an arrangement in which no character is ever allowed to do anything to hurt, upset or offend another character, then make such a deal and honour it, and see if you can continue to have fun that way. If you can, then more power to you.

But unless such an arrangement was already in place, the druid is acting like a spoiled brat by taking an IC issue OOC.

Roleplaying is a game. Nothing else. Nothing we do In Character should ever be allowed to bleed over into a Real Life context. It does not sound like your group is aware of this.


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I am reminded of a conversation I had with Mr Perfect after being invited to Munchkin GMs friend's 1st edition Challenge the gods game.

Mr Perfect: "You need to remake your character... she is full of drama and angst; and hasn't got enough raw power"
Aranna: "What?! She is interesting and full of depth... and she is one sickly powerful wizard!"
Mr Perfect: "This is a GM who will toss the world at us and gleefully try to TPK the party with every well crafted fight." he sighed "Yes in a normal game this spell selection would send a GM out of the room screaming "Power Gamer!" he smiled at me "And stuff like this may have gotten you the invitation in the first place. BUT we need to be crafted as a flawless team working together. If we show ANY weakness the adventure will kill us all without any remorse. So drop the drama and make a team player... and here let me show you some new tricks on how to REALLY abuse the rules and make the level of character we will need."

As usual Mr Perfect was right. My munchkinized power wizard was no stronger than the rest of them. And in the opening fight I died twice. I quickly learned to fight as one with the rest of them. Covering any weakness they show and letting them shield mine. This WASN'T the game to be a drama queen in. I would have gotten us all killed.

When a group engages in PvP they ramp the adventure difficulty up geometrically. In a game like Pathfinder where combat balance is calculated all the way down to the value of your combat gear it isn't wise to make things easy for the group's enemies. So IF you are going to be doing PvP make absolutely sure the GM is on the same page and has lowered the difficulty to easy first or it may well be your last adventure.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I almost sided with the witch queen at the end of our Reign of Winter game. Almost.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost sided with the witch queen at the end of our Reign of Winter game. Almost.

Perhaps oddly, I'm far happier with dramatic plot related betrayals than with petty ones like theft.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My crazy half-orc oracle of winter thought a Golarion covered in snow was a laudable idea. Sadly, the people in charge of it were not pure of heart, so he had to stand with his allies in stopping it. Perhaps another time.


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thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost sided with the witch queen at the end of our Reign of Winter game. Almost.
Perhaps oddly, I'm far happier with dramatic plot related betrayals than with petty ones like theft.

My experience with such stuff it always seems to be the same players 'creating drama' in the same ways no matter the campaign and character.

The player who steals from the party

The guy who tries to have sex with every female NPC with a positive Cha modifier

The one who insults key NPCs when it can do the most damage to the plot

The player who wants payback for every tiny insult, real or (more often) imagined

The one who has secret goals in direct opposition to the rest of the group

And, somehow, these traits never seemed to rotate between players. The same players did the same thing with each and every character they played. Such things make it hard for me to believe (out of those players, at least) that any of it was character related.

More recently I've seen players who CAN do that stuff and not have it seem personal - the key is, IMO - to not do it all the time. And to not do those things the very first character you make in a group. First impressions can last a very long time.


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Grey Lensman wrote:
thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost sided with the witch queen at the end of our Reign of Winter game. Almost.
Perhaps oddly, I'm far happier with dramatic plot related betrayals than with petty ones like theft.

My experience with such stuff it always seems to be the same players 'creating drama' in the same ways no matter the campaign and character.

The player who steals from the party

The guy who tries to have sex with every female NPC with a positive Cha modifier

The one who insults key NPCs when it can do the most damage to the plot

The player who wants payback for every tiny insult, real or (more often) imagined

The one who has secret goals in direct opposition to the rest of the group

And, somehow, these traits never seemed to rotate between players. The same players did the same thing with each and every character they played. Such things make it hard for me to believe (out of those players, at least) that any of it was character related.

More recently I've seen players who CAN do that stuff and not have it seem personal - the key is, IMO - to not do it all the time. And to not do those things the very first character you make in a group. First impressions can last a very long time.

And that's my problem with the "keep it in character" approach to handling it. It rewards that player and doesn't give the others an out. If he's stealing stuff, he gets to have the fun of trying to get away with it. And then the fun of the big dramatic scene when he's inevitably caught. Or the fun of stirring up trouble with NPCs or of the secret goals.

Now, if the rest of the players have a similar style and they're having fun trying to catch him or smoothing over his trouble or have their own secret goals and plans, then it's cool.
But if they're not having fun with it and are just putting up with it until it escalates/becomes clear enough to deal with IC, then it makes a lousy game for them. But the problem player had a great time, even through the getting caught and killed or kicked out the group part, so he's likely to just do it again with his replacement character. Probably a different twist, but along the same problematic lines.

It's an OOC problem. Handling it out of character is the only way to deal with it. That might mean kicking someone out of the group, in extreme cases. It might just mean establishing the social expectations for the game more clearly.


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One game I was in involved the GM asking us what our characters personal goals were - they could cause complications for the group, but none of us made things that were diametrically opposed to the group as a whole. And most of the personal goal following was done out of game over email, so it didn't force the rest of the group to watch as one player did stuff. The payoff was sometimes an NPC or plot point from your emails might show up and no explanation was actually needed from the GM - the player involved would tell the rest of the group. I still miss that B5 game.

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