If you were to pick on side over the other, which one would you choose?
I am in particular interested in playing an Asmodean Advocate. I would like to try the full caster route but I am not sure how helpful I would be in the 1-12 lifespan of PFS
Having played a pregen Kyra over the weekend and not being overwhelmed (though admittedly in a scenario feeding to her particular niche) I'd say 'play what you would, but keep an option or three handy to help out if casting gets shut down for whatever reason.'
Asmodean Advocate get the trickery Domain so that's a good buff to your combat viability, add to that a nice Breastplate and a little bit of DEX and you should be okay.
14 STR and a Longspear paired with Divine Favor+fate's favored will make you a semi decent combatant for starters.
Also a few familiar archetypes will also improve your combat capacities at no cost (Protector, Mascot or valet with teamwork feats).
Most of the best cleric spells don't require saves
I completely disagree. I've turned the tide of, or even ended, entire encounters with a well-placed plane shift, dismissal, chains of light, hallucinogenic smoke, blindness, or even murderous command.
Clerics have a ton of offensive casting stuff they can do, and it's a lot of fun. Besides, usually, there's an abundance of beatsticks, while high-level magic is in short supply
|
I think if I went for the beatstick route it it would not be with a reach weapon. I already have a reach weapon cleric. Which is effective but I want to try something newish.
My two concepts so far a dwarf with high wisdom and constitution who wades in with heavy armor and a tower shield and soaks AoOs while casting high DC debuts on the enemy. He would start off with breadth of knowledge so he could support as the socialite and also do knowledge checks for everything.
Only issue I have is I don't know what good cleric spells I can cast to debug the enemies and turn the tide of battle.
The beatstick would be a human with 18 str, 14 con and wis, and 12 int and dex. Cha dumped because he doesn't need it and channel negative isn't useful as an Asmodeus advocate. Still has the high social aspect, uses a sage familiar for knowledge checks, and uses an earth breaker as his "gavel".
Only issue I have is I don't know what good cleric spells I can cast to debug the enemies and turn the tide of battle.
1 - Command, Murderous Command
2 - Sound Burst, Burst of Radiance
3 - Bestow Curse (good for spell-storing armor), Chain of Perdition, Blindness/Deafness
4 - Dismissal, Hallucinogenic Smoke
5 - Plane Shift, Wall of Stone
6 - Chains of Light
Those are some of my go-to spells for my debuff cleric, who is currently going through Eyes of the Ten. Grab a Bouncing Spell metamagic rod early on to double your chances of landing those single-target save-or-suck spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dwarf Caster
STR 14 DEX 10 CON 14 WIS 20 INT 10 CHA 5
Profession Barrister means you can screw Charisma and still have good social skills. Invest a little in sense motive and perception and Barrister. Get a shield and a Warhammer along with fate's favored at level 5 prepare 2 castings of magic vestment per day and maybe pick up heavy armor proficiency. The rest of the day cast spells with high DCs it's really quite simple.
Or build a melee Cleric and use Energy Channel to stay competive with full martials.
If you get a buckler, then you get the AC boost, but can also use that hand for metamagic rods.
It's actually not that difficult to be quite effective at both casting and melee, but it depends on how you go about it. As a start, Dual Talent Human can make stacking two sides of your ability scores much easier.
As an Evangelist Cleric with Heroism, you can add so much attack and damage with pre-buffed Heroism and one round of Divine Favor & Inspire Courage that lower strength doesn't matter all that much.
Clerics who gain access to Rage reasonably quickly through the Anger Inquisition (or 1 level of Barbarian) are also gaining enough of a boost to combat through +4STR and a Furious weapon that lower strength is compensated for.
And of course Guided Hand is obviously really useful (though damage remains strength-based, so it's not at all a dump-stat option).
If you do have an effective melee/caster type, then things like Wisdom-based melee-touch Domain Powers or the spells Aura of Doom or Instrument of Agony can be really nice. A high WIS/STR Cleric of Irori can pick up Domain Strike: Command quite easily, and then send a foe fleeing or dropping to the ground by punching them (and perhaps then switching to a two-handed weapon for the upcoming AoO). If they're maintaining high-DC Aura of Doom while they do it, so much the better.
All these things are, of course, a lot more complicated and fine-tuned than just plowing all resources into a single role. Clerics that dip one level of something else can do the two-role thing much easier, but of course they're then using Oracle spell-level progression.
I don't think cleric melee+cast builds are that great. If you do go for one you do have to sacrifice WIS and so it becomes less and less worth going for DC based spells.
I don't think cleric melee+cast builds are that great. If you do go for one you do have to sacrifice WIS and so it becomes less and less worth going for DC based spells.
The entire point of such builds is to find ways to avoid sacrificing any WIS, or at most to sacrifice only a marginally small amount. Guided Hand is the most obvious solution, but not the only one. Starting with a high ability split like 17/17 or 16/18 and then maintaining WIS within a couple points of an optimized caster can also work fine.
|
|
I don't think cleric melee+cast builds are that great. If you do go for one you do have to sacrifice WIS and so it becomes less and less worth going for DC based spells.
Well, if you play it exactly like you would a "pure" casting build, then yeah, you're just worse.
That's why you play the hybrid version like it's a third type of build, rather than like it's two different characters at once.
But then you're a 9th level caster sacrificing their strongest asset to be a bit better in an aspect of play that you will very quickly become poor at relative to other martials.
By attempting to somehow have your cake and eat it, you end up losing out in both areas.
If you want to be a hybrid then there is an obvious answer that is set up from the start to achieve what youre looking for..... the Warpriest!!
|
|
...in an aspect of play that you will very quickly become poor at relative to other martials.
Not if you do it right.
By attempting to somehow have your cake and eat it, you end up losing out in both areas.
My experience was closer to "be very strong in both areas".
If you want to be a hybrid then there is an obvious answer that is set up from the start to achieve what youre looking for..... the Warpriest!!
Clerics are set up from the start to achieve it as well; you just have to be able to look at what the class truly has instead of just what the class is famous for.
Well we will just agree to disagree... all I know is 2 things:
1) They designed the Warpriest for a very good reason
2) I have never ever seen a cleric be simultaneously a "very strong martial" and a "very strong caster"... I have however seen many clerics who are simultaneously mediocre martials and mediocre casters - this becomes especially true past about 9th level.
It's easier to turn a beat-stick cleric into a caster than it is to turn a caster cleric into a beat-stick if your PFS composition isn't what you'd like.
Also consider the discussion was revolving around PFS which ends at level 11 so you're never gonna get to the point were 9th spells are actually relevant.
|
|
Well we will just agree to disagree... all I [s]know is 2 things:
1) They designed the Warpriest for a very good reason
2) I have never ever seen a cleric be simultaneously a "very strong martial" and a "very strong caster"... I have however seen many clerics who are simultaneously mediocre martials and mediocre casters - this becomes especially true past about 9th level.
It only takes one example to prove possibility, and I've played that example all the way up through the tail end of 11th level. Meanwhile, the warpriest is just a smaller cleric: same BAB, same HD, same saves, same spell list, and (in practice) nearly the same proficiencies.
That's reality. Believe as you choose.
Well we will just agree to disagree... all I [s]know is 2 things:
1) They designed the Warpriest for a very good reason
2) I have never ever seen a cleric be simultaneously a "very strong martial" and a "very strong caster"... I have however seen many clerics who are simultaneously mediocre martials and mediocre casters - this becomes especially true past about 9th level.
It only takes one example to prove possibility, and I've played that example all the way up through the tail end of 11th level. Meanwhile, the warpriest is just a smaller cleric: same BAB, same HD, same saves, same spell list, and (in practice) nearly the same proficiencies.
That's reality. Believe as you choose.
It's possible to be a strong martial cleric, and also have strong spellcasting, but that spellcasting is going to have to avoid save-granting offensive spells (except for the odd Plane Shift on a gargantuan ooze or such).
Martial clerics can do just as well with healing, condition removal, and a lot of problem-solving spells, but they just won't have the offensive magical punch of a dedicated debuff/SoS/SoD cleric.
|
|
Well we will just agree to disagree... all I [s]know is 2 things:
1) They designed the Warpriest for a very good reason
2) I have never ever seen a cleric be simultaneously a "very strong martial" and a "very strong caster"... I have however seen many clerics who are simultaneously mediocre martials and mediocre casters - this becomes especially true past about 9th level.
It only takes one example to prove possibility, and I've played that example all the way up through the tail end of 11th level. Meanwhile, the warpriest is just a smaller cleric: same BAB, same HD, same saves, same spell list, and (in practice) nearly the same proficiencies.
That's reality. Believe as you choose.
It's possible to be a strong martial cleric, and also have strong spellcasting, but that spellcasting is going to have to avoid save-granting offensive spells (except for the odd Plane Shift on a gargantuan ooze or such).
Martial clerics can do just as well with healing, condition removal, and a lot of problem-solving spells, but they just won't have the offensive magical punch of a dedicated debuff/SoS/SoD cleric.
I already pointed out that if you try to play them like a dedicated SoS cleric, then of course the hybrid won't perform as well. Never tried to claim otherwise. I only claimed a cleric could simultaneously be a strong (not mediocre) combatant and a strong spellcaster, not that he could play identically to both types of specialists at the same time.
I'm pretty sure you can pick subdomains as those still count as the trickery domain. But trickery is actually really strong...
Make it meaty. Most of the best cleric spells don't require saves, so a mediocre Wis investment is enough and you can concentrate on the physical stats.
I still wouldn't take Fate's Favored though. Too much cheese.
So my warpriest with fate's favored and divine favor, and jingasa, and lucky horse shoe must me Limburger in you opinion.
Everybody was asking for a generalized paladinoid and we got a half assed magus that doesn't do anything that couldn't already be done with a lesser quicken rod or the feat.
I have to say, this strikes me as incredibly aggressive and dismissive over-generalization. "...doesn't do anything that couldn't already be done with a lesser quicken rod or the feat..." ...Because having to not only have a metamagic rod but to have it equipped while casting is the same as being able to naturally swift-action a spell without needing any hands at all - when we're talking about a character trying to integrate said spell into melee combat? Or spending a feat and eating a +3/4 levels metamagic penalty and still needing a free hand is also just as good? The Warpriest has it's potential flaws, but it's plenty effective as a pseudo-martial when done well, and it opens up an enormous number of possible martial/divine builds. A lot of the frustrated dismissal reminds of the people who took one look at the Inquisitor way, way back and said "3/4 BAB and lacks full divine casting? Worthless crap Paizo, WTF?!?!"
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Everybody was asking for a generalized paladinoid and we got a half assed magus that doesn't do anything that couldn't already be done with a lesser quicken rod or the feat.I have to say, this strikes me as incredibly aggressive and dismissive over-generalization. "...doesn't do anything that couldn't already be done with a lesser quicken rod or the feat..." ...Because having to not only have a metamagic rod but to have it equipped while casting is the same as being able to naturally swift-action a spell without needing any hands at all - when we're talking about a character trying to integrate said spell into melee combat? Or spending a feat and eating a +3/4 levels metamagic penalty and still needing a free hand is also just as good? The Warpriest has it's potential flaws, but it's plenty effective as a pseudo-martial when done well, and it opens up an enormous number of possible martial/divine builds. A lot of the frustrated dismissal reminds of the people who took one look at the Inquisitor way, way back and said "3/4 BAB and lacks full divine casting? Worthless crap Paizo, WTF?!?!"
On the other hand, at least the inquisitor has some things of its own, like bonuses to certain skills, its own spell list, and unique abilities like Judgment and Bane. The warpriest, though, uses the same spell list as the cleric and doesn't really have anything special of his own. His best ability (quickening self-buffs with Fervor) is still trying to improve on what the cleric already had, but all it actually accomplishes is that he can make 1 more attack per combat than the cleric can.
So, the warpriest gets 1 more attack per combat, but is using all the same combat math and the same spell list as the cleric.
He has almost the same accuracy as the cleric (1 point better).
He has the same damage potential as the cleric.
He has the same saves as the cleric.
He has almost the same AC potential as the cleric (1 point better).
He has the same spell list as the cleric.
He has fewer spell slots than the cleric.
He has slower spell level progression than the cleric.
He has (arguably) worse "domains" than the cleric.
Honestly, when you start to really look at it, the warpriest is mostly just a cleric with less spellcasting. It's just that a lot of people have trouble getting over their emotional prejudices of what it means to "play a cleric" versus what it means to "play a warpriest" and can't really digest what the similarities and differences truly are.
In any combat where the warpriest misses (or isn't able to attack yet) on round 1, he's basically just a bad cleric.
On the other hand, at least the inquisitor has some things of its own, like bonuses to certain skills, its own spell list, and unique abilities like Judgment and Bane. The warpriest, though, uses the same spell list as the cleric and doesn't really have anything special of his own. His best ability (quickening self-buffs with Fervor) is still trying to improve on what the cleric already had, but all it actually accomplishes is that he can make 1 more attack per combat than the cleric can.
He has almost the same accuracy as the cleric (1 point better).
He has the same damage potential as the cleric.
Just considering mundane Fighter feats and Sacred Weapon, I'm not sure that assessment really holds up. As a very basic example, a level 9 Warpriest of Sarenrae can easily be wielding a 1d8 scimitar with Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical, and adding +2 enhancement or +2d6 elemental or holy damage to it with Sacred Weapon. That's an awful lot of additional damage potential. Or to take a different tack with it, a Warpriest can be running Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Dirty Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp and Felling Smash by level 9, while adding another +2 enhancement to weapon; there's really no Cleric comparison to make here at all.
I'll fully admit that I'll generally play a melee Cleric or Oracle instead of a Warpriest for various reasons, unless a game is going to involve short set-piece battles with no pre-buffing allowed. If I do create a full-on Warpriest build, it's typically to use the huge sprawl of feats to do some kind of feat-intensive build that other Divine classes simply couldn't do, like maybe some kind of Destruction Blessing TWF-plus-other-feats thing that vaporizes targets with full attacks. Well, that or to flurry a deity's weapon two-handed to ridiculous effect with Sacred Fist, but Sacred Fist is practically another class.
So I'm not saying the Warpriest is absolutely amazing or a straight replacement for melee builds using full classes; just that it certainly has it's uses, and can do some pretty interesting things with a little system mastery. Having run the numbers on a bunch of different Warpriest builds, I find that blanket statements about how it "fails" at everything end up looking pretty odd.
Ok let's compare that feat intensive example of the warpriest to a battle mystery oracle since you do have a leg up on a cleric (in terms of feats). Weapon focus, improved crit, and greater weapon focus are given to you at the "price of a revelation selection" at level 4,8,and 12. Improved and greater trip feats are given to you and are the likely target to be improved by elven or similar FCB to go above Full BAB perks. If we want to go with war sighted oracle we can get even more feats at reduced cost. Reduced because even though revelations are reduced in that case, burning a feat for "extra revelation" is getting you 2 or 3 feats over time.
Battle/Warsighted Oracle is great, but in this particular case it doesn't work nearly as well as you're suggesting. Even assuming you use FCB (which is weak now at 1/6 levels and requires an un-ideal race), you don't get free Improved Trip until the Warpriest can take Greater Trip, and Greater Trip and Greater Weapon Focus don't cash in until 11 or 12. Even if you use Warsighted to (barely) manage to bring Felling Smash and Greater Trip together by 9, you're still down several feats by comparison. Add together Sacred Weapon plus Greater Weapon Focus plus a feat free for Fury's Fall, and the Warpriest at that point is up by maybe 4/5 points on trip CMB with feats to spare. Like with so many things, generalizing is one thing while the limits of actual builds is quite another.
As I said above, I'd usually not choose to play a Warpriest compared to a melee Cleric or Oracle. However, having constructed and run numbers on about a billion different divine melee character builds I can say it really does have it's uses and it's own niche. Especially if you start using archetypes and/or going after the very few truly good Blessings - like maybe a Champion of the Faith with the Destruction Blessing adding 1.5xlevel to damage with TWF.
Folks OP asked for advice on a Cleric take your Warpriest discussion someplace else.
Folks OP asked for advice on a Cleric take your Warpriest discussion someplace else.
I'll digress when and where I want to. What were we talking about now?
|
|
So I think I will go with the full casting cleric
Heres what I got so far:
Dwarven Asmodean Advocate Cleric 1 - Grand Lodge
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Infernal
STATS:
STR 11
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 20
CHA 5
Racial Abilities:
Slow and Steady, Darkvision 60ft, Stoic Negotiator, LoreKeeper, Unstoppable, Stability, Weapon Familiarity
BAB 0, INIT +3, 5 FORT, 1 REF, 7 WILL, HP 14
Traits:
Observant - +1 Perception and it becomes a class skill
Reactionary - +2 to Initiative
Feats:
Breadth of Experience - +2 to all professions and knowledge checks. Can make them untrained
Toughness - from Unstoppable
Effective Skills:
Perception - 1(Skill point) + 3(Class Skill) + 5(Wis) + 1(Trait) + 2(Alertness) = 12
Sense Motive - 1(Skill point) + 3(Class Skill) + 5(Wis) + 2(Alertness) = 11
Profession(Barrister) - 1(Skill point) + 3(Class Skill) + 5(Wis) + 1(Devil in the Details) + 2(Breadth of Experience) = 12
Diplomacy(from Profession Barrister) - 12(Devil in the Details) + 2(Stoic Negotiator) = 14
Bluff(from Profession Barrister - 12(Devil in the Details) + 3(From Viper Familiar) + 2(Stoic Negotiator) = 17
Profession(Merchant) 5(Wis) + 2(Breadth of Experience) + 2(Stoic Negotiator) = 9
All other professions 5(Wis) + 2(Breadth of Experience) = 7
All Knowledges 1(Int) + 2(Breadth of Experience) = 3(5 on history if they relate to dwarves or their enemies)
Domain - Trickery. Bluff, Disguise and Stealth are class skills.
Copycat- Move action 1 Mirror image for 1 round. 8 times per day
Spells-
Orisons - Virtue, Detect Magic, Guidance
1st level - Murderous Command, Command, Liberating Command, Disguise Self(Domain)
Tactics - Constantly have buffs on everyone, cast spells when needed. Try to melee things if I run out of spell or Aid Another. Has his familiar who can speak Infernal stealth and scout ahead of the party as needed. Very powerful in social situations, also has a strong perception for pointing out dangers before they happen. Also can support via the knowledge checks.
In later levels once he doesn't have to worry about meleeing things since he should have plenty of spells. He will probably pick up heavy armor and a tower shield and eat the attack bonus penalties. At level 8 he gets an Imp Consular with many special abilities including Telepathy and at will invisibility, making it the perfect scout.
Viper Familiar - HP 5 BAB 0 FORT 1 REF 5 WILL 3
Movement - 20ft land climb and swim
Languages - Infernal
Bite +5 1d2 -2 damage poison DC 9 1d2 con 6 rounds 1 save
Skills - Climb +11, Perception +9, Stealth +15, Swim +11, Sense Motive +2, Profession Barrister +2, Diplomacy +2, Bluff +2.
Abilities: Alertness for Master, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathic Link
Fluff - This dwarf is a proud lawyer of the society, using diplomacy to work deals in favor of the Society, or leading enemies astray with his powerful but subtle lies. Follows and worships Asmodeus because of his intense love of the law. If all lawyers go to Hell anyway, might as well be the best damn one possible.
So, what do you think? Would you change anything?
|
|
Hmmn. Possibly. I am guessing the closest parallel to that would be a Bard's versatile performance. I am not sure how that would translate over.
My argument is if that is the case, then the Familiar's bonus to bluff wouldn't help you at all. Since the archetype is basically based around lying and telling technical truths, then it is probably intended to be your little lying helper.
Then again, sometimes archetypes are written poorly in the realm of RAW