A fighter simply sucks at all the roles of a martial except soldier. If you want to hold to a martial theme, you are better off with another class.
==Aelryinth
That's not really a provable claim. Some roles will certainly be better filled with other classes. Some roles will be filled equally by some classes. Some roles will be superior by other classes. With all of the options I've seen for fighters, especially once we look at 3rd party stuff (replacing bravery with the RGG stuff is great).
Using the skills stuff in Unchained opens up more options for using skills as well. Just by using background skills, consolidated or grouped skills, and/or adding skill unlocks (but restrict it so that non-rogues have to take the signature skill feat) easily handles many of the problems. There is even something in there on expanded skill uses that makes the background skills useful for adventurers. It would be easy to avoid overlap with them. Add in traits and the skills issue is almost a non-issue.
Adding in the stamina option (change the name if you don't like it) and the fighter has more options in combat and can do more than simply hit stuff. Everything has an additional use. I think it's just fine restricting it to fighters or making non-fighters need feat access.
The fighter doesn't really need as much as you think. What it needs is people to either play it or not. If you don't like it, then don't play it. If you do like it, then play it. If you want to change it, then change it.
I'm still sticking with a simple bump in skill points per level, class skills and skipping feats to use a weapon class would fix most of the fighter's problems.
Comparing it to classes outside the core is a little unfair. Many of the newer classes are designed to be complex, the fighter simply was not. Just because a Vigilante gets two IDs and tons of skills, does not make a better character if the Player can not play it right. A well roll played fighter would be more interesting than a poorly roll played vigilante...
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Comparing it to classes outside the core is a little unfair. Many of the newer classes are designed to be complex, the fighter simply was not. Just because a Vigilante gets two IDs and tons of skills, does not make a better character if the Player can not play it right. A well roll played fighter would be more interesting than a poorly roll played vigilante...
Uh...Bard is at least as complex as most of the new Classes, and Sorcerer is a pretty simple Class in many ways, but still appropriately powerful.
So...this justification sorta falls a bit flat.
A fighter simply sucks at all the roles of a martial except soldier. If you want to hold to a martial theme, you are better off with another class.
==Aelryinth
That's not really a provable claim. Some roles will certainly be better filled with other classes. Some roles will be filled equally by some classes. Some roles will be superior by other classes. With all of the options I've seen for fighters, especially once we look at 3rd party stuff (replacing bravery with the RGG stuff is great).
Using the skills stuff in Unchained opens up more options for using skills as well. Just by using background skills, consolidated or grouped skills, and/or adding skill unlocks (but restrict it so that non-rogues have to take the signature skill feat) easily handles many of the problems. There is even something in there on expanded skill uses that makes the background skills useful for adventurers. It would be easy to avoid overlap with them. Add in traits and the skills issue is almost a non-issue.
Adding in the stamina option (change the name if you don't like it) and the fighter has more options in combat and can do more than simply hit stuff. Everything has an additional use. I think it's just fine restricting it to fighters or making non-fighters need feat access.
The fighter doesn't really need as much as you think. What it needs is people to either play it or not. If you don't like it, then don't play it. If you do like it, then play it. If you want to change it, then change it.
Actually, Bob, it IS kind of provable.
You're trying to expand the argument to say that all martial classes are not better at all martial roles then the fighter. I agree. BUT, except for soldier, in pretty much any martial role you take, another class is better.
Unlocked Skills are dependent on HAVING those skills. The fighter has the LEAST amount of skills possible, and no Intelligence synergy for the class. If you want skills, pick a barb or ranger, and have more potential unlocks. Each unlock is a general feat, and all classes have the same amount of general feats. The fighter is never better off then another class for unlocks, AND they get all their class abilities that surpass his, too.
The stamina system is a combat buff. The fighter doesn't need much of a combat buff...some maneuverability options is nice. But the stamina system is simply part 1 of a Feat Fix: Attempting to make some 'fighter only' feats. Unfortunately, they still don't scale, they just add a little extra that doesn't change the fact that feats are underpowered and combat feat chains are overpriced. The biggest thing they grant is some movement options, and give the fighter a swift action to use in the round, as long as their stamina holds out.
Freaking pools, hiding the problem.
IN short, the stamina is a patch on a bleeding wound that still doesn't fix the problem with a fighter. Doesn't really even come close, really.
==Aelryinth
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I am working on a fighter rewrite right now for my current gaming group. The goal was to get more players to play a fighter over another martial class. Once I have it in a more presentable format, I'll post for you all.
"Brief" Summary of changes:
Saves: Good Fort and Will saves. Poor Reflex (can be changed to a good progression with an advanced training talent)
Skills: 4 + Int points/level. Add Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Perception to class list.
Proficiency: As normal. In addition, a fighter is always considered armed, even when unarmed. If 'fighter' is a character’s favored class, the fighter’s penalties on attack rolls for using a broken, improvised, non-proficient, or wrongly-sized weapon are halved.
Bonus Feats: Applies to combat and teamwork feats. For qualifying for those feats that require a minimum ability score, a fighter treats his relevant score as the sum of his actual score + his fighter level. Can retrain a bonus combat or teamwork feat once per day, after 8 hours of rest.
Gains Combat Stamina feat at 1st level. Stamina is used to fuel fighter abilities as well as feats.
Gains Fighting Style at 1st level: Similar to ranger's combat style, where it sometimes grants the fighter a bonus feat despite prerequisites, but ultimately sets the fighter up for a particular fighting style right off the bat (two weapon fighting despite Dex score, double Str bonus when 2-handed fighting, Precise Shot feat for ranged fighters, defense bonus for tanks, Bodyguard feat for protectors, unarmed combat on par with a brawler, combat maneuver mastery [like using standard action maneuvers as attack action, or gaining maneuver Strike feats], finesse fighters, etc.)
Replaced Bravery with Maneuver Training: Scaling bonus to CMB and CMD, and the fighter can perform any combat maneuver without provoking attack of opportunity. Only provokes if he fails the maneuver and does not have the Improved feat for that maneuver.
Removed Armor Training and Weapon Training progression (see below).
Advanced Training: Essentially fighter talents. Mix of Advanced Weapon Training stuff from Weapon Master's Handbook and the abilities of all current fighter archetype features, plus weapon training and armor training. Gained at 3rd level and every odd level thereafter. Allows customization without the restriction and sacrifice of a single archetype.
Armor Training (talent): As normal, but does not scale. Can simply be taken multiple times.
Weapon Training: When the fighter learns a combat feat that normally applies to a specific weapon or weapon type, such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload, the feat instead applies to all weapons of the same weapon group that are legal choices for the feat, and the fighter is considered to have the feat with those weapons for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack.
- Furthermore, if the fighter has the Weapon Focus feat, and is applying it to an associated weapon group, the feat’s bonus also applies to any combat maneuver checks made with associated weapons, to his CMD when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against his associated weapons, and on saving throws he makes against spells and effects that target his associated weapons (e.g., grease, heat metal, shatter, warp wood, etc.).
- Lastly, if the fighter’s Weapon Focus bonus with a particular weapon group is at least +2, and he spends at least 72 hours using an exotic weapon from the same weapon group, he gains proficiency with that weapon.
Resolve: As samurai ability, but using stamina points as resource. Gained at 3rd level. Removes some conditions (shaken, sickened, fatigued, etc.); Can roll Fort and Will saves twice and take better result; Stabilize and keep conscious if dropped below 0 hp.
Martial Mobility: Gained at 6th level. By spending stamina points, the fighter can take a full-attack action as a standard action. Can take move before, after, or between attacks. Movement does not provoke AoO from creatures the fighter hits that turn.
- If using the Revised Action Economy from Pathfinder Unchained, this ability adds 1 additional act that turn. This act can only be used for attack or move acts, but the fighter can take no more than 3 combined attack or move acts this turn when using this ability (can take more if hasted).
Stalwart: As unbreakable fighter archetype ability. Gained at 8th level. Basically Evasion for Fort and Will saves.
Greater Resolve: As samurai ability, but uses stamina points. Gained at 9th level. Turn critical hits into normal hits.
True Resolve: As samurai ability, but uses stamina points. Gained at 17th level. Avoid death.
Removed Armor Mastery (rolled into an advanced training talent).
Weapon Mastery is now an advanced training talent with a late level requirement.
I might also add some abilities similar to uncanny/improved uncanny dodge, or that allow fighters to always act in the surprise round. I already have a couple of abilities like these as advanced training talents, but I might make them baseline.
I'm combining several feat chains and rewriting a couple of combat feats. This is a boost for everyone, but because fighter gets more feats, it allows for greater customization and flexibility. Couple of examples:
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +8, this bonus increases to +2. When your base attack bonus reaches +15, this bonus increases to +3.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Fighter: A fighter instead gains a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls he makes using the selected weapon. For every four levels a fighter possesses after 1st (5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th) this feat’s bonus increases by +1. A multiclassed fighter uses either his fighter level or his base attack bonus to determine this feat’s bonus, whichever is greater. Classes with effective fighter levels (such as the magus or samurai) gain this benefit of this feat, instead of the normal benefit.
Stamina: Once per round, you can spend 2 stamina points to gain your Weapon Focus bonus with a weapon with which you don't have Weapon Focus. This bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.
{Combined Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization}
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, you can use Cleave any number of times per round; as long as your extra Cleave attacks hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action.
In addition, when your base attack bonus reaches +4, you can use your full-attack action to give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent. When you use the Cleave feat in this way, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Fighter or Dwarf: When your base attack bonus reaches +11, if your initial attack hits, you may take a single 5-foot step as a free action before making your additional attacks. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional Cleave attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites.
Stamina: You can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class until your next turn. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, once per round when you miss a foe with an attack gained from Cleave, you can spend 5 stamina points to make another Cleave attack anyway. When your base attack bonus reaches +11, once per round when you hit a creature with a follow-up Cleave attack, you can spend 5 stamina points to take a second 5-foot step as a free action. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional Cleave attacks as long as it meets all the other prerequisites.
{Combined Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleave Through, Whirlwind Attack}
Combat Expertise (Combat)
<Descriptive Fluff>
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When making a deadly aim attack (now universal), a power attack (now universal), or when fighting defensively (now uses Combat Expertise's old mechanic), you do not suffer the penalty on attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn when using one or more of these combat actions. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you can now make attacks of opportunity when using total defense, but at a –4 penalty to your opportunity attack rolls.
Stamina: You can spend 2 stamina points, per combat option, to gain the benefits and the hindrances of that combat action until the end of your current turn, instead of until the start of your next turn. Alternatively, if you spend 5 stamina points, each successful attack you make against a target reduces your total attack penalties (the sum of using one or more combat actions simultaneously) against that target by 1 (to a minimum of 0) until the beginning of your next turn.
{Combined/Reworked Feats: Combat Expertise, Furious Focus}
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
When your base attack bonus reaches +11, you roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack three times and add the results together, instead of rolling them twice.
When your base attack bonus reaches +16, you roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together, instead of rolling them three times.
Stamina: After rolling the damage of a Vital Strike attack, you can spend 2 stamina points to reroll up to two of the weapon's damage dice. (For weapons with more than one damage die, count all the weapon's base damage dice together as one.) You must take the second result, even if it's lower. When your base attack bonus reaches +11, you can spend 3 stamina points instead of 2 to reroll three damage dice. When your base attack bonus reaches +16, you can spend 4 stamina points instead of 2 to reroll four damage dice.
{Combined Feats: Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike}
Right now, the fighter in my home game that is using these changes is level 7, and started at level 4. Dwarf. Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10. He focuses on a 2-handed fighting style with hammers (singular mighty blows with Vital Strike), favors resiliency, and focuses his skills on climb/swim, perception, intimidate, heal, ride, some knowledge skills, and survival (playing Kingmaker Adventure path). His feats are: Combat Stamina, Weapon Focus (great club; hammers with weapon training talent), Cleave, Pushing Assault, Vital Strike, Combat Expertise, Signature Skill (Perception), Toughness, and Endurance.
Other members of the party are an Unchained Rogue, Fire-bloodline Sorceress (uses Spheres of Power system), and Cleric of Erastil (crusader archetype; uses spheres of power system).
We also use the Revised Action Economy from Pathfinder Unchained.
The fighter is a powerhouse in combat, without a doubt, but has been able to keep up with (and sometimes surpasses) the rest of the party in terms of travel/exploration, survival, perception, and "negotiations".
Any day to day modularity/ability to customize?
A good set of changes.
==Aelryinth
Any day to day modularity/ability to customize?
My fighter is able to retrain one combat or teamwork bonus feat each day.
Something in particular you had in mind? Or something that I can clarify?
One feat a day is pretty slow, but better then nothing.
Gains Advanced training in addition to feats, in all the empty slots, I assume.
I like the idea of weapon training stacking with any saves a wielded weapon has to make. Very minor, but flavorful. I allow the various bonuses from Bravery, WT adn AT to stack with skill checks that involve stats relevant to those abilities, too.
No auto AT? And you made it very expensive, to boot.
No DR, which means no stacking with adamantine armor.
I had my fighters get Improved Grapple or IUS at first level, their choice of which. So, armed even when not.
Does the maneuver training stack with the feats, or supersede them? Getting all manuvers basically improved is a little high to me, but, again, just feat consolidation.
You have physical condition removal, but no healing.
No anti-magic.
No narrative ability...
No ability to give away buffs.
Hey, look, a weapon th/dmg bonus at level 1!
Combat Expertise: A little too much IMO, but I can see why you did it. Total Defense should double your Expertise bonus to AC, but inflict an ADDITIONAL -4 TH if you attack.
I note you didn't use the Reckless Attack anti-Defensive fighting (-4 to AC, +2 to hit). I use a variant called Precise Attack, which gives TH while removing dmg (anti-Power Attack, as it were).
Meh, picking nits...
You're more feat consolidation and minor combat buffs then anything else, here. Adding in Mettle (the fort/will 'evasion' is generally called Mettle in a nod to 3e). More feats that do more stuff is certainly not a bad build, and gives him more to do.
But if you're going to compete with spellcasting, you should probably broaden abilities and/or Talents even more, unless you're snatching up a bunch of the nice ones (Mutagen Warrior, Eldritch Guardian, etc).
==Aelryinth
it's another fact that the Fighter does not do the role of LG goody two shoes champion anywhere near as well as the paladin, i.e. the mechanics don't back up the role.
what do mechanics have to do with roleplaying someone that follows the edicts of lawful good?
Ditto if the fighter tries any role that competes with barb or ranger, except for MAYBE being a soldier.
Given that an int fighter will typically have more skills than a barbarian, I would argue that the opposite is true: the barbarian struggles to fill roles that a fighter can.
Actually, Bob, it IS kind of provable.
You're trying to expand the argument to say that all martial classes are not better at all martial roles then the fighter. I agree. BUT, except for soldier, in pretty much any martial role you take, another class is better.
That's still an opinion, not proof. If my anecdotes and builds to show that the fighter can fill many more roles than soldier are not proof, then your claim isn't either. Just because you, personally, don't think that the fighter can do it, doesn't mean that it can't be done in the thousands upon thousands of other groups.
Unlocked Skills are dependent on HAVING those skills. The fighter has the LEAST amount of skills possible, and no Intelligence synergy for the class. If you want skills, pick a barb or ranger, and have more potential unlocks. Each unlock is a general feat, and all classes have the same amount of general feats. The fighter is never better off then another class for unlocks, AND they get all their class abilities that surpass his, too.
The fighter doesn't need any Intelligence synergy for skills. His skills don't use it. Neither do many other classes. That's not a valid argument against the fighter. He is free to put points in whatever skills he wants, just like everyone else. The skill unlocks only care about the number of ranks. They give a boost.
The stamina system is a combat buff. The fighter doesn't need much of a combat buff...some maneuverability options is nice. But the stamina system is simply part 1 of a Feat Fix: Attempting to make some 'fighter only' feats. Unfortunately, they still don't scale, they just add a little extra that doesn't change the fact that feats are underpowered and combat feat chains are overpriced. The biggest thing they grant is some movement options, and give the fighter a swift action to use in the round, as long as their stamina holds out.
Freaking pools, hiding the problem.IN short, the stamina is a patch on a bleeding wound that still doesn't fix the problem with a fighter. Doesn't really even come close, really.
It give more options than "I hit things."
Do you want to know what I notice in 100% of these discussions? No matter what anyone says or does, no matter what options are made officially available, not matter what happens, there will be people who simply do not want the fighter to ever be acceptable and they will always, 100% of the time, criticize it.
I'm actually very sorry that I even started this thread. I will be bowing out. The point of the thread was to actually get some honest feedback on balance. I should have known better.
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That's still an opinion, not proof. If my anecdotes and builds to show that the fighter can fill many more roles than soldier are not proof, then your claim isn't either. Just because you, personally, don't think that the fighter can do it, doesn't mean that it can't be done in the thousands upon thousands of other groups.Actually, Bob, it IS kind of provable.
You're trying to expand the argument to say that all martial classes are not better at all martial roles then the fighter. I agree. BUT, except for soldier, in pretty much any martial role you take, another class is better.
I think the assertion is more that the other classes do it better, not that the fighter can't do it. Ie if trying to make some concept, and you come down to deciding between Barbarian & Fighter and both are equivalent flavor wise, why would you choose the fighter?
The fighter doesn't need any Intelligence synergy for skills. His skills don't use it. Neither do many other classes. That's not a valid argument against the fighter. He is free to put points in whatever skills he wants, just like everyone else.
Yes but the point is other classes have higher base skill points (ranger, barbarian, even the gunslinger & the cavalier), or have a reason to pump intelligence (magus, wizard, alchemist). A fighter has neither, leaving him with a low number of skill points by comparison.
As for not wanting the fighter to be viable....I do want him to be viable. I also want Paizo to stop releasing feats with absurd prerequisites (one of the feats in the Armor Master's handbook has seven prerequisite feats....SEVEN. They all make sense, but still!). But this is why I'm intending to make a pile of changes to...just about everything, if only to just see what it looks like when the dust settles.
No one reasonable would say that Fighters can't do anything but be beat-sticks... But it's a fact that they need to invest more resources than any other class yo do it and will likely still yield lesser results.
I really think the fighter is an under-rated class. Granted its not that exciting but then I dont know what they can do to make it exciting. People should RP more!
Its only area of concern for me is to do with action economy. A half decently built fighter should be crit hitting every round (standard action) and probably twice per round (full atttack) by 10th level which I think is entirely right. The problem is the lack of a move action to go with a full attack.
Thats the big balance issue for me in terms of martial vs caster. A caster can move AND cast a big juicy spell whereas a martial can only move and standard attack.
Thematically for me a caster should only get a 1/2 move or maybe even no move if it wants to cast. Either that or concentration checks need to be made more integral to the process of casting. Or maybe a martial can always move 10 feet before a full attack?
This is the 2nd time I see this "Fighters should be critting every round" argument... Other than the 2-Handed Fighter archetype, how are Fighters better than anyone at getting critical hits before 20th level?
I suppose they can get Improved Critical slightly earlier... Is that it? It's a single feat... Sure, it only affects 1 type of weapon, but you very rarely need more than that.
I like the idea of fighters being master's of training, possibly having a special interaction with the retraining rules allowing them to retrain a large number of combat feats very quickly if need be.
Something like being able to retrain combat feats at no cost, without a mentor in 1/5th the time (1 per day), plus an additional combat feat per point of weapon training.
Perhaps reduce the time needed per day to only 4 hours - Weapon highest training bonus, minimum of 15 min.
The ability to retrain HP without a mentor / monastery / whatever other dumb restriction would be nice too. Maybe for each point of armor training he gains an additional Hit point per completed session, letting himself become more durable than a barbarian through discipline eventually (assuming you use average HP).
Also adding half his level to ability scores for the purposes of qualifying for combat feats.
That and like 4 Skill ranks per level. And maybe a good will save while were at it.
Not super sure on specifics just an idea, but it speaks to the Charles Atlas heroic fantasy. It doesn't do much to address narrative power though, it's really just an increase in WBL assuming you use retraining rules.
Gains Advanced training in addition to feats, in all the empty slots, I assume.
Correct.
No auto AT? And you made it very expensive, to boot.
My apologies, I was referencing an alternate version of armor training that I was experimenting with, and not my functional version further down the page. My player didn't take armor training, nor plans to in the immediate future, so I hadn't looked at either version in a while.
Here's my version:
Armor Training: Whenever the fighter is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, gains a +1 bonus to his CMD when defending against sunder attempts made against his armor, and a +1 bonus on saving throws he makes against spells and effects that target his armor (e.g., heat metal, shatter, warp wood, etc.). A fighter with this training can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th, and every four levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by 1 each time, and the fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Furthermore, a fighter using piecemeal armor is considered to be wearing a suit of armor as long as he wearing two or three armor pieces, gaining the +1 to armor bonus, but still taking the +5% chance of arcane spell failure if the pieces are mixed.
No DR, which means no stacking with adamantine armor.
As I said, Armor Mastery was rolled into a training talent, combined/superseded by the armored defense feature of the armor master archetype:
Armor Mastery: A fighter with this talent gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. At 11th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 2/— when wearing light armor, DR 4/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 6/— when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/— when wearing light armor, DR 8/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 12/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the fighter is stunned, unconscious, or helpless. A fighter must have armor training to select this advanced training.
Does the maneuver training stack with the feats, or supersede them? Getting all manuvers basically improved is a little high to me, but, again, just feat consolidation.
Yes, it stacks, but my consolidated maneuver feats only ever grant a +2 bonus. But still, the class feature makes fighters best at combat maneuvers, naturally.
You have physical condition removal, but no healing.
No anti-magic.
No narrative ability...
No ability to give away buffs.
With resolve, the fighter can gain temp hit points, but no, no new way to heal other than the Heal skill.
Resolve allows you to roll twice when making a saving throw, so that is sort of "anti-magic".
My fighter's new narrative power comes from an expanded skill list and a couple training talents. My fighter now has just as much narrative ability as a barbarian, cavalier, gunslinger, rogue, or samurai.
There are a couple advanced training talents that allow my fighter to buff his allies, look to the tactician fighter archetype for some specific examples.
But if you're going to compete with spellcasting, you should probably broaden abilities and/or Talents even more, unless you're snatching up a bunch of the nice ones (Mutagen Warrior, Eldritch Guardian, etc).
The goal of my rewrite was never to give the fighter the ability to compete with spellcasting, no true martial class (i.e. spell-less) can, but as I said above, it does put the fighter on par with the barbarian, cavalier, gunslinger, rogue, and samurai in terms of non-combat contribution.
Being that my summary was not holistic, there are several advanced training talents that broaden the fighter's role. Almost every fighter archetype ability is available as an advanced training talent, in one form or another, so look to those for examples.
All in all, thanks for feedback Aelryinth. I'll try to post something in the near future to paint a more complete picture.
There are a couple ways to compete with magic.
The first is basically to be able to have stuff that magic can't do, or does better then magic.
Like, when the fighter wears a Str belt, it's automatically +2 higher then normal, to a max of +8.
Or, maybe his arms and armor retain their bonuses in A-M shells.
The second way is Anti-Magic. As in, being impervious or highly resistant to magic. In short, making NOT using magic a strength, instead of a weakness.
The ways to do this are Spell Resistance, high saving throws, and the ability to nullify and neutralize magic by various means.
This means they can't DO the things magic does, but they can STOP the things magic does...which is just as or more valuable.
As for narrative power...rogues, cavaliers, samurai, barbs and gunslingers don't have narrative power, either, so saying fighters are equal to them means you basically haven't done anything. ;P
==Aelryinth
Actually, Bob, it IS kind of provable.
You're trying to expand the argument to say that all martial classes are not better at all martial roles then the fighter. I agree. BUT, except for soldier, in pretty much any martial role you take, another class is better.
That's still an opinion, not proof. If my anecdotes and builds to show that the fighter can fill many more roles than soldier are not proof, then your claim isn't either. Just because you, personally, don't think that the fighter can do it, doesn't mean that it can't be done in the thousands upon thousands of other groups.
Unlocked Skills are dependent on HAVING those skills. The fighter has the LEAST amount of skills possible, and no Intelligence synergy for the class. If you want skills, pick a barb or ranger, and have more potential unlocks. Each unlock is a general feat, and all classes have the same amount of general feats. The fighter is never better off then another class for unlocks, AND they get all their class abilities that surpass his, too.
The fighter doesn't need any Intelligence synergy for skills. His skills don't use it. Neither do many other classes. That's not a valid argument against the fighter. He is free to put points in whatever skills he wants, just like everyone else. The skill unlocks only care about the number of ranks. They give a boost.The stamina system is a combat buff. The fighter doesn't need much of a combat buff...some maneuverability options is nice. But the stamina system is simply part 1 of a Feat Fix: Attempting to make some 'fighter only' feats. Unfortunately, they still don't scale, they just add a little extra that doesn't change the fact that feats are underpowered and combat feat chains are overpriced. The biggest thing they grant is some movement options, and give the fighter a swift action to use in the round, as long as their stamina holds out.
Freaking pools, hiding the problem.IN short, the stamina is a patch on a bleeding wound that...
Bob, you just reiterated a position I already agree with, and then said you were in opposition to what I said without being in opposition.
You said fighters could fill a lot of roles. I AGREED with you. You made it seem like I didn't.
What I said was, there is no role that a fighter can do, except possibly soldier, that another martial class cannot do BETTER, with 'all other things being equal' as a given.
And that's truth.
Your 'skill unlock' argument completely went around the question. Yes, skills only matter about ranks.
yes, his class skills don't use Intelligence. Which means he has no incentive to raise intelligence, EXCEPT to grant more skills, which ANY OTHER CLASS would have the same incentive to do.
And he only has two skill points. I find it very, very disturbing that you seem to regard having 2 skill points as equal to having 4, and a small skill list to be as good as a larger one, since you are completely disregarding them in your argument. I.e. every other class can get the same skill unlocks as the fighter, only they have more skills to pick from, and more class skills, so why would I pick a fighter to get the exact same benefit?
Yes, the stamina system gives the fighter more to do in a fight. Yay, they can finally spend pool points in swift actions so they get some minor combat buffs.
It gives them no options or other things OUT of combat, which is, and always has been, the fighter's greatest problem. Ergo, it's quasi-feat consolidation and a bandaid over a bleeding wound, trying to fix a fraction of the problem that is there.
And then the fact is, if you accept the stamina system, you have to accept the fact that other martial classes can take it as well, which incredibly dilutes the wonderful equalizing power of this non-core ability.
You've always been a proponent of the fighter being ABLE to fill a role, and I respect that.
But you are continually failing to acknowledge the parallel point...that other classes then the fighter do almost all of those roles BETTER, simply because they are mechanically stronger.
==Aelryinth
I like the idea of fighters being master's of training, possibly having a special interaction with the retraining rules allowing them to retrain a large number of combat feats very quickly if need be.
Something like being able to retrain combat feats at no cost, without a mentor in 1/5th the time (1 per day), plus an additional combat feat per point of weapon training.
Perhaps reduce the time needed per day to only 4 hours - Weapon highest training bonus, minimum of 15 min.
The ability to retrain HP without a mentor / monastery / whatever other dumb restriction would be nice too. Maybe for each point of armor training he gains an additional Hit point per completed session, letting himself become more durable than a barbarian through discipline eventually (assuming you use average HP).
Also adding half his level to ability scores for the purposes of qualifying for combat feats.
That and like 4 Skill ranks per level. And maybe a good will save while were at it.
Not super sure on specifics just an idea, but it speaks to the Charles Atlas heroic fantasy. It doesn't do much to address narrative power though, it's really just an increase in WBL assuming you use retraining rules.
Basic combat feats are like cantrips to a fighter.
1) Fighters need Techniques, or Talents, or whatever, that are on a par with Rage Powers.2) basic combat feats should be something they are massively trained on, and can swap in and out at will.
I.e. the Martial Mastery system from the Brawler. Just tweak it so that the feats you 'go and get' STAY THERE until you go and get other ones.
If you want to add Intelligence synergy to the fighter, you could even 'restrict' Martial mastery to a 'feat pool' based around 3+Int per level, or something. So, more intelligent fighters have more feats they can go grab. Rewarding the intelligent fighter! (and at the same time adding complexity because they now need a 'feat book' of feats to track).
'Expertise' could have the side effect of adding, say, 2 feats/level to that 'feat book'.
In short, Techniques/Talents permanent, combat feats mutable.
HP training rules are already in the rules, just costs money.
I'd let them train at half price, i.e. two for one.
I tied the Toughness feat to 'training up' their hp/hd...such improves at every level of Armor Training past the first. So, Toughness adds more HP on top, where Armor Training would start moving the average hp up. At higher levels, they'd have more avg hp/hd then any other class, although a barb spending lots of money would still have the most MAX hp possible.
Just ignore ability score reqs is easier. It's what rangers do, and fighters should be better at feats then rangers.
The fighter is an Olympian of combat. He SHOULD have a good Reflex save, no question. He should have the OPTION of improving his Will save tremendously, and his overall saves likewise.
===Aelryinth
it's another fact that the Fighter does not do the role of LG goody two shoes champion anywhere near as well as the paladin, i.e. the mechanics don't back up the role.what do mechanics have to do with roleplaying someone that follows the edicts of lawful good?
Ditto if the fighter tries any role that competes with barb or ranger, except for MAYBE being a soldier.Given that an int fighter will typically have more skills than a barbarian, I would argue that the opposite is true: the barbarian struggles to fill roles that a fighter can.
What does roleplaying a LG champion have to do with mechanics? You mechanically pick the best class for the role, and then play him. The fighter does NOT compare to a paladin in that role. Period.
If you are going to argue that 'class doesn't matter', then you're saying a warrior or commoner are equally viable in that role.As for your second argument...excuse me, where is the line in the rules that playing a fighter suddenly grants you +4 Int so you have the same amount of Intelligence points, All Other Things Being Equal presumed?
(waits)
(crickets)
Riiiight.
===Aelryinth
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The fighter can change out his feats as easily as a sorcerer can change out her spells. That's not the problem. Unless you think that all spontaneous casters except the arcanist are also unplayably bad.Any day to day modularity/ability to customize?
A good set of changes.
==Aelryinth
I actually agree with most of the rest of this post, but the above is a really ridiculous and inaccurate comparison that I felt the need to call out.
A Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, all of which must be Combat feats. Because these must be Combat feats, some or all of them are all going to feed towards the singular purpose "hit things better".
A sorcerer gets 34 spells known and 9 cantrips, all of which can potentially be selected to serve different purposes. Even if you presuppose that the Sorcerer spends 1 spell per level on a damage specific option, that still leaves 25 effective points of customization plus 9 potentially useful options that can be spent on whatever other purposes he chooses, and this doesn't even account for his nine bonus spells from bloodline, or his own three bonus feats.
Trying to compare the Fighter's ability to zwap out feats to a Sorcerer's ability to swap out spells is just ridiculous. There's simply no comparison.
The problem is that feats with BAB 16 prerequisites are not as good as 8th or even 6th level spells and the fighter gets less than a third as many bonus feats as a bard or inquisitor gets spells known and just over a quarter as many as a sorcerer.
Agreed, 100%. There simply aren't enough high level feats in the first place, and the ones that do exist are often fairly piddly or situational rider effects that you've had to dedicate some fair portion of your build to in order to acquire. Not even just comparing to spells, but compare combat feats to metamagic/caster feats; very few caster focused feats have prereqs, and virtually none have more than two prereqs. More than that, most of the prereqs casters have to meet are options you'd consider taking anyway, while many martial feat prereqs are simply taxes you absorb on your way to an option that you actually intend to use.
We don't need a vancian fighter. Paizo already did that in the form of the brawler. We just need a fighter that's a complete class. And feats with level 4+ prerequisites that are actually good.
Agreed again. I've noted in past threads that even if you ignore the fact that every resource the Fighter gains is overly focused towards a singular purpose, he simply gets less than other classes. He's got about 70% of the amount of resources avilable to (for example) a Ranger or Paladin, and even less flexibility in how he spends those resources. Fighter feats need to be of higher quality, more equivalent to what a Paladin or Ranger gets from their class features. He could also stand getting a second good save and 4 or even 6+Int skill points with a better skill list.
I did a long series of posts on Feat-equivalents, i.e. what a class is worth if you had to spend a feat for every single class ability.
Fighters were pretty much dead last among the melee classes, with 25ish feat equivs. 9 level spellcasters were in the 80-90+ range.
==Aelryinth
and yeah, comparing fighter feats to Sorc spells? The sorc has as many spells at level 5 as the fighter gets as class abilities over his entire career....with the FC option to get more, and to use wands of spells he doesn't have, and the ability to fill a spellbook if he wants to, and the ability to SEE a spell and turn it into a SpellKnown if he wants to.
I mean...sheesh!
And a human arcane sorc with FC benefit can have 62 Spells Known at level 20 (other bloodlines, 59. Non-humans, 42).
And that's without Pages of Spell Knowledge.
A fighter with 42 feats! wouldn't that be something. 2 every level. 3 if human.
==Aelryinth
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...
A fighter with 42 feats! wouldn't that be something. 2 every level. 3 if human....
You aren't nearly cynical enough.
If the fighter had 42 feats, the Improved Maneuver lines would be about 10 feats long, and Power Attack would just give +2/-1 (with Improved, Greater and Superb variants later in the feat chain to boost that, naturally).
The fighter is being worked against on several fronts here. It would be quite funny if tables weren't suffering for it.
well, we're talking fixes here, which means building up. If they gave him more feats and then instead of improving feats, nerfed them, that would not be a fix.
Seriously, 60 feats on a fighter. I wonder how rapidly I could fill them up. I could do all the archer, the full Shield Two-Weapon Fighting, and multiple greater specs! :)
Unfortunately, it wouldn't help with my saves at all.
New human Fighter FC bonus...one general saving throw, combat, or skill based feat. heh!
==Aelryinth
This is the 2nd time I see this "Fighters should be critting every round" argument... Other than the 2-Handed Fighter archetype, how are Fighters better than anyone at getting critical hits before 20th level?
I suppose they can get Improved Critical slightly earlier... Is that it? It's a single feat... Sure, it only affects 1 type of weapon, but you very rarely need more than that.
As i said, it comes too late for most people to see it but ...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-mastery-combat
This is the 2nd time I see this "Fighters should be critting every round" argument... Other than the 2-Handed Fighter archetype, how are Fighters better than anyone at getting critical hits before 20th level?
I suppose they can get Improved Critical slightly earlier... Is that it? It's a single feat... Sure, it only affects 1 type of weapon, but you very rarely need more than that.
As i said, it comes too late for most people to see it but ...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-mastery-combat
But that doesn't make them any more likely to get those critical hits. The issue with sayign they crit every other round is that they get crits no more frequently than anyone else. Their crits are just supremely devastating.
well, we're talking fixes here, which means building up. If they gave him more feats and then instead of improving feats, nerfed them, that would not be a fix.
Seriously, 60 feats on a fighter. I wonder how rapidly I could fill them up. I could do all the archer, the full Shield Two-Weapon Fighting, and multiple greater specs! :)
Unfortunately, it wouldn't help with my saves at all.
==Aelryinth
Except to pick up Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Improved of Each, Additional Traits (for Second Chance, and Kin Bond with the group's Monk), and Tribal Scars (Ice Chasm or Sloth Jaw), because you now REALLY have feats to spare.
4 Ranks/lvl.
Bravery becomes a Flexible "bonus" pool, applicable to your choice:
One Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st Level. Alternatively, just take Toughness instead.
Feats:
ah, ah. Fighters by default get combat feats. All the saving throw feats are GENERAL feats. So just increasing fighter's feats wouldn't solve anything in that area. :P Although I wouldn't have to spend general feats on combat feats anymore...
and the Improved Feats are so horrible I don't know how anyone can stomach taking them. :P It should at least have been one reroll for each save feat you have, instead of having to purchase 1 reroll/day for each save! Just, ugh.
==Aelryinth
ah, ah. Fighters by default get combat feats. All the saving throw feats are GENERAL feats. So just increasing fighter's feats wouldn't solve anything in that area. :P Although I wouldn't have to spend general feats on combat feats anymore...
and the Improved Feats are so horrible I don't know how anyone can stomach taking them. :P It should at least have been one reroll for each save feat you have, instead of having to purchase 1 reroll/day for each save! Just, ugh.
==Aelryinth
That's been a thought I've that I'm going to experiment with. Basically have feats that synergise with each other. One example would be like an improved combat expertise that would let you make a free combat maneuver on a hit if a) you have the "greater" version of that combat maneuver and b) the weapon you're using has an ability relevant to that combat maneuver. So for example if you have greater trip & this feat, and hit someone with a scythe, you can attempt a free trip maneuver (as a swift action so it doesn't become absurd) as part of that hit.
That's about the only idea I've had on the matter so far, but I've yet to comb through the lot of combat feats to come up with more.
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The fighter doesn't really need as much as you think. What it needs is people to either play it or not. If you don't like it, then don't play it. If you do like it, then play it. If you want to change it, then change it.A fighter simply sucks at all the roles of a martial except soldier. If you want to hold to a martial theme, you are better off with another class.
==Aelryinth
quoted your last statement because from what I've seen, popularity is mostly tied to how "Good" a class is. and by good I mean a mix of interesting and powerful mechanics. the majority of opinions I've seen place the fighter at the bottom of the list because it's both boring to play and not very powerful.
as many have said, if you want skillpoints go rogue, if you want brute damage go barbarian, if you want something in the middle there are plenty of options even in the base class. I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out what the fighter actually brings that's special, besides be decent at fighting enemies with a couple of weapon groups.
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ah, ah. Fighters by default get combat feats. All the saving throw feats are GENERAL feats. So just increasing fighter's feats wouldn't solve anything in that area. :P Although I wouldn't have to spend general feats on combat feats anymore...
and the Improved Feats are so horrible I don't know how anyone can stomach taking them. :P It should at least have been one reroll for each save feat you have, instead of having to purchase 1 reroll/day for each save! Just, ugh.
==Aelryinth
That's been a thought I've that I'm going to experiment with. Basically have feats that synergise with each other. One example would be like an improved combat expertise that would let you make a free combat maneuver on a hit if a) you have the "greater" version of that combat maneuver and b) the weapon you're using has an ability relevant to that combat maneuver. So for example if you have greater trip & this feat, and hit someone with a scythe, you can attempt a free trip maneuver (as a swift action so it doesn't become absurd) as part of that hit.
That's about the only idea I've had on the matter so far, but I've yet to comb through the lot of combat feats to come up with more.
Feat Synergy is a wonderful thing, and Expertise is THE feat to showcase it...since it is supposed to represent an Intelligent Fighter.
Here's how I wrote it out.
Expertise (Combat)
You may take a penalty to hit to increase your AC, starting at -1/+1, and increasing all the way up to -6/+6 by +1/-1 every 4 levels (4th,8th, etc). This bonus from Expertise is a Dodge bonus.
You may not use Expertise at the same time as Power Attack (they are the same effect in different directions) or its variants. Any condition that denies you use of Expertise (such as Rage) also denies you use of variant Expertise bonuses and synergy for other purposes.
Fighter: Expert Defendant: You may gain the AC bonus from Expertise, Full Defense, and/or Defensive Fighting at the beginning of your turn, even if you are not engaged in combat, but you must have a melee weapon drawn/prepared and be able to attack.
Defensive Master: You may choose the amount of -/+ you gain from using Expertise, from minimum to maximum, if you desire (with DM’s approval - note the reason it is fixed is to speed combat along by not having to recalculate numbers).
Offense or Defense: You may change your base melee fighting style to be more offensively minded and less mindful of defense. When using Reckless Offensive, you take a -4 penalty to AC and gain a +2 bonus to hit (this is the opposite of Defensive Fighting).
Expert Footwork: Your number of Skill Ranks in Acrobatics is considered to be at least your Fighter level for purposes of the AC benefits for Defensive Fighting and Total Defense. At 12 Ranks/Level, the AC benefits for the Defensive Fighting/Total Defense options increase by +1 and +2 AC respectively.
Go Easy On Them: You may choose to deal non-lethal damage instead of lethal damage when attacking someone without a TH penalty.
Expertise and its bonus modifies many other Techniques.
(Mundane) Constant Expertise: You add your Expertise bonus to your Combat Maneuvers and CMD if you are not actively using it defensively. This replaces the bonus from most Improved Combat Maneuver Feats. (A light armored fighter is not considered to be actively using Expertise for his automatic AC bonus).
Bonded Expertise: If you are wielding a Defender or Guardian Named Weapon, you may gain the AC/Save bonus swap as long as the weapon is openly held unsheathed and you are not flat-footed (like TWF).
(Mundane) means you have chosen your character to not have and never have magical ability. As a result, you gain additional benefits from feats due to your greater focus on them for your strength.
And having Expertise gives minor bonuses to other techniques. For instance, Imp Initiative is increased by your Expertise bonus. Quickdraw lets you slam potions down as part of another move action, and subsumes both Rapid Reload (xbows) and Ammo Drop (slings). At level 9, a fighter with Expertise adds his Expertise to relevant skill checks dealing with matters of combat and war. Etc etc. FOr Combat Reflexes, you can use your Dex mod OR your Expertise mod for figuring # of AoO's you get.
Instead of Dex to damage, Finesse fighters can add their Expertise modifier to their damage instead. It does effectively the same thing, but keeps the focus on Str as the core damage, and the fact that the Finesse style takes an expert to really work well.
Expertise is a VERY good Technique to have IMC, and is designed to help other feats scale nicely.
==Aelryinth
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I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out what the fighter actually brings that's special, besides be decent at fighting enemies with a couple of weapon groups.
I've always envisioned the fighter approaching combat like an art, like a monk without the mystical inner perfection/awakened wisdom angle. Therefore they should be encouraged/rewarded for attempting to use combat maneuvers, and be experts at performing them, instead of being punished for doing other than whacking it for damage.
I've also always envisioned fighters as those courageous dudes that are extraordinarily resilient, with abundant stamina to fight long battles without becoming winded from wearing heavy armor and wielding heavy weapons for hours a day. Therefore they should have the ability to remove conditions, resist effects, stave of fatigue, exhaustion, and even death, laugh in the face of fear, and should be able to do cool things in combat without having to "switch on/rev up" like a barbarian that has to rage for his bonuses and cool abilities, or a ranger/paladin that has to buff himself with spells or face a certain foe in order to do his cool stuff. They should be the best at persistent, extraordinary resilience, and not be really tough JUST when they're buffed with spells or their limited abilities.
Fighters should be masters of a fighting style, which should include, and not be limited to, the mastery of specific weapons and/or armor.
Fighters should get a feat/ability whereby if they hit with a critical, the target takes additional bleed damage or penalties for the next round... etc
They have those, they are level 11+ feats
Crit-based builds are also forced into a handful of weapons with high threat ranges so they can generate crits...rapier, scimitar, kukri, katana, curve blade. Extremely annoying.
==Aelryinth
Crit-based builds are also forced into a handful of weapons with high threat ranges so they can generate crits...rapier, scimitar, kukri, katana, curve blade. Extremely annoying.
==Aelryinth
Focused weapon makes that basically an irrelevance
Focused weapon just raises the feat cost for doing it, so it's still forcing the issue.
==Aelryinth
Focused weapon just raises the feat cost for doing it, so it's still forcing the issue.
==Aelryinth
yes but if there's one thing fighters have its feats to spare. so "raising the feat cost" is kind of a non issue. By the time you're taking critical feats you've more than enough to throw around.
Pretty much. Combat feat's are designed around the fighters access to double the normal number of feats for some reason, instead of around normal classes access. Which doubly screws the fighter as he actually has to take all the feats in the chain and cant just skip to the one good one at the end, meaning he has a much higher opportunity cost to do his classes main stick which is to have a bunch of feats except 2/3rds - 1/2 of his feats are absolute trash
I think a better progression would be to have more powerful feats, but more mutual exclusion through them. For example, if combat maneuver chains were shorter (1-2 feats for the greater equivalent instead of 2-3), I expect outcries of "but then the fighter could finish a bunch of them!" But that doesn't actually increase his direct power. All having access to the multiple abilities does is grant the fighter options, more options than other classes in combat, which would be a good thing and a reason to pick the class. More so, if that were the case, the fighter could have comparable effectiveness to other classes by taking the same set of feats, and then use the actual extra feats he has to take non-combat related ones to round out the class (skill bonuses, etc).
The Fighter doesn't have feats to spare. At all.
There are HUNDREDS of feats out there. The fighter gets 11. Wahoo. Those feats somehow have to compete against class abilities that scale with level for other classes.
Generally speaking, they don't.
Anything that increases the feat cost of a weapon is a notch against picking it for the benefit.
Anything that requires a use of a General feat is forcing the Fighter to compromise his defenses and utility.
A feat should be as powerful as a class feature and scale by level, at least for the fighter. IF it doesn't, then it is that awful design where blowing feats is somehow supposed to make up for the lack of scaling, like the Weapon Focus and Improved Manuver chains.
I gave my fighters scaling and level appropriate feats, and gave them TWO per level.
It still wasn't enough. Crazy, no? There were always more things the fighter wanted to do.
==Aelryinth
what is 'it'? Because this feat is very, very much as strong as any class option out there.
'Spend a combat feat. You get a scaling shield bonus to AC, you just have to pay money for it.'
That's every bit as good as the rage power that lets you get a scaling Nat AC bonus.
As for feats NOT being as powerful as class features, I will direct you to the fighter...where 11 combat feats ARE his class features. If you're saying they shouldn't be as strong as class features...you're saying he has a ton of underpowered, unworthy class features.
==Aelryinth
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I don't think that it should be "as powerful" as a class option. The whole idea is that you have the freedom to choose what you want from a list you just pointed out is massive. That freedom is part of the classes appeal, and as such is balanced.
To counter this, take the fighter class as is. Remove Bravery as a feature, and the auto-crit capstone. Replace it with proficiency with every weapon (exotic or otherwise). Have you made a stronger or weaker class? You've certainly added options (and removed flavor from exotic weapons), but would you honestly play that, even over the regular fighter?
The problem with options in character creation is such freedom is effectively worthless in game. It allows you to make a larger variety of characters on the same chassis, but it's a false choice if most of those options give you worse effect. It comes down to this: If I want to chose to play a Paladin-like character, I would choose the Paladin as my class, rather than try to build it off of the fighter. "Build your own class" as a feature doesn't make sense in a game full of a variety of classes, especially when all other classes still have build choices (slayer talents, standard feat progression, favored enemies / terrain / companion, spells known, favored weapon, etc).