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But a lot of contributors on these forums and on this thread are suggesting that it is not uncommon practice for PFS GMs to just rule the way they like as if their players were not paying customers who were obeying the rules.
Rather, people have different views of what the rules mean.
Because "table variation" should an anathema to Pathfinder Society.
So long as PFS is played by humans, that will remain impossible.
BTW: Potion Glutton appears to be erroneous. It says that normally, drinking a potion is a move action. Actually, the Core Rulebook chart of actions in the Combat section and the description of potions in the magic items section both list it as a standard action.
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Scott Wilhelm if you want to play PFS I suggest you don't go hunting for controversial feats designed for very specific situations in order to create a broken combination that is clearly much more powerful than other feats. Then you won't be so disappointed by Pathfinder's imperfections. Then you won't need to pay the couple of dollars for the book and won't feel ripped off.
I've seen the price argument made a few times and it boggles my mind. RPGs are one of the lowest spend per hour activities you can do. I mean I spend more money on the cinema than I do on Pathfinder - for a lot less time.
Just play APs without GMs, then. If the rules are that cut and dry as they don't need adjudication, then have at it bro.
Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...
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Just play APs without GMs, then. If the rules are that cut and dry as they don't need adjudication, then have at it bro.
Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...
Mr. Willhelm and I do not often see eye to eye, however I will say this.
Pathfinder Society is the only current venue that I have found that requires you to buy books. Now a days due to archives of nethys, the d20pfsrd, and the prd most rule content can be gotten free.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
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Just play APs without GMs, then. If the rules are that cut and dry as they don't need adjudication, then have at it bro.
Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...
Mr. Willhelm and I do not often see eye to eye, however I will say this.
Pathfinder Society is the only current venue that I have found that requires you to buy books. Now a days due to archives of nethys, the d20pfsrd, and the prd most rule content can be gotten free.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
Is that a bad thing though? Those books cost money to develop and publish, too. I don't think it's unreasonable that if you're going to use them, that you pay for that.
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BTW: Potion Glutton appears to be erroneous. It says that normally, drinking a potion is a move action. Actually, the Core Rulebook chart of actions in the Combat section and the description of potions in the magic items section both list it as a standard action.
Exactly. When I first clicked on that thread I thought the question of errata or FAQ was in regards to that bit. Lo and behold! it's because people wanted more out of an already awesome feat! ;)
PS: I'm not sure if everyone realizes that with Potion Glutton feat and Accelerated Drinker trait you can drink three potions per round (swift, move and regular standard... assuming you find a way to draw that third potion as a free action... 'one' glove of storing is a way... various prehensile tail racial traits is another... then there's monkey belt if your GM allows you to draw items with it). Three potions on the first round is some serious buffing power!
PS2: Alchemists have the Brew Potion feat btw (not in PFS I know, but for everyone else with that feat, Potion Glutton is just amazing).
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Scott Wilhelm if you want to play PFS I suggest you don't go hunting for controversial feats designed for very specific situations in order to create a broken combination that is clearly much more powerful than other feats. Then you won't be so disappointed by Pathfinder's imperfections. Then you won't need to pay the couple of dollars for the book and won't feel ripped off.
I've seen the price argument made a few times and it boggles my mind. RPGs are one of the lowest spend per hour activities you can do. I mean I spend more money on the cinema than I do on Pathfinder - for a lot less time.
Yep! LOL! couldn't agree more!
I also find the idea that someone would buy INNER SEA GODS just for the Potion Glutton feat amusing to say the least. That book is a freaggin' work of art if you're even the slightest, most detached Pathfinder fan.
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PFS is just to make money? Ok, I'll admit that I'm no longer a huge fan of PFS in terms of the organized play aspect of it (grr... driving to dark dank places to meet new people... gah!) and reporting, but just one look at the PFS modules online show amazing quality for something that's meant to last just 4 or 5 hours. I find them as good as regular modules from the Modules line-up (they have less maps and no fancy posters folded in the back cover, but they do the job just fine: well written AND they provide alternate stats for different play tiers... that's pretty awesome).
In short, I'm assuming Paizo is bearing the cost for these and paying people to write those. And the art. They have to pay for that too. Considering their small price, I'm not sure 'PFS is to make money'. If all they wanted was a scheme to have people buy books, they would have shut-down that whole PFS modules writing operation and just had people sanction their Pathfinder Modules and Adventure Path play experiences and have them log results of those online.
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The idea that there are pretty pictures in Inner Sea Gods does encourage me to buy it, and in principle I like the idea of being a...
Dude, I meant the whole book is awesome... as in "it's so amazing it's a work of art." You have a major description of the 20 core gods, their heralds, and three prestige classes detailing specific powers depending on each god. That book is a tour de force.
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Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...Mr. Willhelm and I do not often see eye to eye, however I will say this.
Pathfinder Society is the only current venue that I have found that requires you to buy books. Now a days due to archives of nethys, the d20pfsrd, and the prd most rule content can be gotten free.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
First, the listed web sites are often inaccurate (prd included). Archives and d20pfsrd also tend to quote things out of context a lot. So while they are amazing references, it's not the same thing as having your own copy.
As for owning the books, while I don't think Paizo or PFS hates you buying books, I think the PFS stance is directed at streamlining the gameplay. If the group has a question, someone at the table should have an actual copy of rules we can look at. Seems entirely reasonable, and it really does speed up gameplay.
Just play APs without GMs, then. If the rules are that cut and dry as they don't need adjudication, then have at it bro.
Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...
Mr. Willhelm and I do not often see eye to eye, however I will say this.
Pathfinder Society is the only current venue that I have found that requires you to buy books. Now a days due to archives of nethys, the d20pfsrd, and the prd most rule content can be gotten free.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
Then play those?
You can drink 3 potions a turn isn't wahoo.
You can drink a potion AND do everything else you want to do on your turn IS strong. Being able to drink up to 3 potions if you've nothing else to do is indeed some major fast buffing if you're a mind to...just like getting off 3 buff spells in a round (normal, quickened, + contingent!)
The only reason 3 potions would be weak is they'd cost money instead of being 'free'.
Just imagine if every spell cast cost 10 gp/spell level in comps. heh!
==Aelryinth
Yes. It is what it is.
If you can find free games that do not have rules ambiguities ever, then perhaps that would be a better fit for your enjoyment.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The table variance will be strong indeed. Some tables might just say 'this feat is not allowed'.That is not at all cool in PFS. People are paying money to gain access to these feats.
You sure can use the feat. The meaning of the words in the feat is 100% in the GM hands. He is fully empowered to interpret the rules as he believes they are written. If he believes they pertain to potions and similar non-extract things, then he can implement the rules that way.
Someone who can demonstrate that their interpretation is valid to the GM
I added the bold, which makes your statement true. If you don't find words to convince your GM of your interpretation, then your interpretation is irrelevant.
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A God specific feat is there to simulate a behavior that the God encourages in her worshippers - in this case guzzling potions. A DM may well extend that to worshippers of other gods. Speak to your GM. As it stands now worshipping Urgathoa is a limitation.
I would find a worshipper of an evil god distasteful if I played a good character. It would have an in game effect on that character. As a GM I would have NPCs react similarly. Worshipping Demon lords would have an in game impact in our game.
two things
I thought good characters wouldnt be so judgementalHow do you tell what god someone worships by looking at them
since when does good mean uncritical? good people can think poorly of others for who they decide to venerate.
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Among other things, it fundamentally changes the relationship between player and GM, making it more like Customer and (unpaid!) Customer Service Representative. It means that Players have rights like Customers do, and it means the world that the GMs are running was not created by them and in principle, the PFSGMs should not have any personal agenda except to encourage everybody to buy the books and have a great time, never to look for excuses to re-interpret the rules to ruin player characters.
A customers rights are spelled out pretty clearly - to return goods for exchange or refund when they are not fit for purpose. That's it. Customer service is not a right in most countries. Considering you get to see the mechanical content of most paizo books before you buy I really have very little sympathy.
I also have no sympathy because a large proportion of the posters on this thread will remember a time when we couldn't conveniently reference the web and the ONLY way to learn the rules was to buy the books or borrow them from someone who had.
I also have no sympathy because 95% of abilities and feats you will use are found in three or four books. Nobody is forcing you to buy "Elf Gardening Techniques of Golarion" just so you can take racial heritage and make use of the Pruning Shear Mastery feat for your Half Topiary Half Stryx Alchemist Slayer Spiritualist. For a few dollars you can play pathfinder perfectly well for eternity.
Pathfinder society is free to take part - you just need to demonstrate you have access to rules you are using. You are owed no better service than any human being owes to another - that is goodwill and the golden rule. You certainly are not a customer of the DM who gains nothing from your participation. Maybe tone down the entitlement!
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So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
I would be interested to see these other games that don't require money to be spent. In my experience, it's like those mobile games. You can play for free, but you're going to be tempted to buy the premium content.
A God specific feat is there to simulate a behavior that the God encourages in her worshippers - in this case guzzling potions. A DM may well extend that to worshippers of other gods. Speak to your GM. As it stands now worshipping Urgathoa is a limitation.
I would find a worshipper of an evil god distasteful if I played a good character. It would have an in game effect on that character. As a GM I would have NPCs react similarly. Worshipping Demon lords would have an in game impact in our game.
two things
I thought good characters wouldnt be so judgementalHow do you tell what god someone worships by looking at them
So now you want to be a SECRET Urgathoa worshiper. It just keeps getting worse! Why would I want this untrustworthy evil-god worshipper covering my back?
As for owning the books, while I don't think Paizo or PFS hates you buying books, I think the PFS stance is directed at streamlining the gameplay. If the group has a question, someone at the table should have an actual copy of rules we can look at. Seems entirely reasonable, and it really does speed up gameplay.
Please tell me you don't actually believe that.
No - the entire purpose is so that Paizo has a revenue stream so that they can stay in business and continue to publish content. Their entire product line exists on the back of Wizards' Open Gaming License and they're legally required to give away ALL their rules content COMPLETELY FOR FREE so they need SOME way to require people to actually pay for it.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.I would be interested to see these other games that don't require money to be spent. In my experience, it's like those mobile games. You can play for free, but you're going to be tempted to buy the premium content.
In nearly every roleplaying game I've ever played we generally would only have one copy of the applicable books for the group. No need for all six of us to all buy the exact same book.
A God specific feat is there to simulate a behavior that the God encourages in her worshippers - in this case guzzling potions. A DM may well extend that to worshippers of other gods. Speak to your GM. As it stands now worshipping Urgathoa is a limitation.
I would find a worshipper of an evil god distasteful if I played a good character. It would have an in game effect on that character. As a GM I would have NPCs react similarly. Worshipping Demon lords would have an in game impact in our game.
two things
I thought good characters wouldnt be so judgementalHow do you tell what god someone worships by looking at them
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Just play APs without GMs, then. If the rules are that cut and dry as they don't need adjudication, then have at it bro.
Like nobody else buys books except PFS people...
Mr. Willhelm and I do not often see eye to eye, however I will say this.
Pathfinder Society is the only current venue that I have found that requires you to buy books. Now a days due to archives of nethys, the d20pfsrd, and the prd most rule content can be gotten free.
So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.
You know, MOST Pen and Paper RPGs dont have an official SRD. Most other Pen and Paper RPGs are "pay-To-Play". The level of entitlement you show toward the rules is absolutely rediculus. But lets buy your "I Paid For this Feat therefore it works like I say" argument. Does that mean when the rule is FAQed to not work like you say you are entitled to a refund?
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In nearly every roleplaying game I've ever played we generally would only have one copy of the applicable books for the group. No need for all six of us to all buy the exact same book.
That doesn't sound like freeware. My group only needs one copy of Eldritch Horror or the Adventure Card Game to play as well.
To be clear I'm only saying you don't NEED to spend a fortune on gaming. I'm sitting with upwards of $10,000 of preprinted miniatures in the cupboard - i don't complain if Paizo doesn't use those monsters in its adventure paths.
I guess collecting them is a byproduct of having an obsessive personality plus I spent too long playing Warhammer in my day, where a new army required taking out a mortgage. Bad habits.
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Honestly... who cares about that actual definition? haven't you all played this game for years now? do you really think that some feat called "Potion Glutton" is meant to quicken cast all extracts for alchemists and investigators?
For crying out loud, even if this would work on extracts, aren't you a bit worried that the equivalent, on the wiz/sor side, has the following little caveat to it?
--> "A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. "
You would have a point if it wasn't self consumption only.
You would also have a point if either of the two had 9th level extracts.
Using a limited resource pool, as opposed to permanently reducing the action economy cost across the board.Considering how easy it is at higher levels to reach more fervor than rounds of combat per day I disagree with this assessment. PG is slighly stronger early on (Level 1) Level 2 to about level 6 it's the same because with a 16 wisdom (Not exactly a hard ask for a freeking wisdom class) you can quicken every spell on yourself. At level 7 PG is slightly better but by the time level 10 or so rolls around and you have +4/+6 headbands and levels you tend toward 10+ fervor which is reaching rage levels of "Do I even need to count?".
I think it's hilarious that we're debating potion glutton vs warpriest while I have a warpriest with potion glutton.
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So yes in my eyes pathfinder society is a "Pay-to-Play" game where most other games are freeware.I would be interested to see these other games that don't require money to be spent. In my experience, it's like those mobile games. You can play for free, but you're going to be tempted to buy the premium content.
I apologize as I was unclear and looking at my statement I can see where I muddied the waters.
To be very clear.
Pathfinder society is in my opinion pay to play pathfinder in comparison to all other games of pathfinder where one does not have to pay for anything, due to the PRD, D20SRD, and Archives of Neyths.
I guess a case can be made that you are paying for the electronic device with which to access the internet, the electricity to power it, and some way to get a data channel.
However as most people who live in first world countries already have access to these three things, or can gain access via a library, and a very cheap electronic device, I considered these costs nominal.
Also games like Fate Core are available free online.
Now I do usually buy a book when I like the content such as Legendary Games's Mythic Mania books, or Dreamscarred Press's Ultimate Psionics. That however is a personal choice to support the companies I like so as to hopefully get more content from them. Having to shell out 10$ for a PDF just to be able to put one feat or ability on my character sheet, such as Armed Bravery, or Creed of Humility before I can even see it in play is to me the definition of pay-to-play.
It is incumbent on a company to make a paid experience more tempting than a free experience in my opinion if for no other reason than to maximize their customers and thus their revenue stream.
So yes I feel that PFS should offer a more concrete set of rules and less table variance than home games. In all honesty I believe they mostly do. I do not play or enjoy PFS even though my experiences with PFS GM's have been good but that is entirely due to me not liking to have to buy splatbooks I may use one thing from to play a character, and the fact that a major part of the RPG experience for me is the tactical and build game. I have been quoted as saying "If you are rolling dice in pathfinder you are already losing".
Having some players that have different enough play styles from mine so as to be almost completely disengaged from that side of pathfinder made it not fun for me. Since the players at a table vary every time I decided I would simply not participate so as to hopefully not hurt others fun via my playstyle difference from theirs and to maximize my fun via finding a home table that matched my desires.
Please be aware that I am not bashing anyone or anything it was simply not for me. I also find it self evident that, yes in PFS you must buy the books (Pay) to sit at a PFS table with anything in them on your sheet (Play).
P.S. Shout out to TOZ for being an awesome PFS GM. I enjoyed your game style very much, it is the other things I stated above that I do not like about PFS.
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For those who think the move+swift benefit breaks the action economy or think it makes the feat too strong (despite its obvious roleplaying downside) and who insist that Paizo couldn't have *possibly* intended it to work that way, I'm still curious what your thoughts are over the fact that you can replicate the benefits of this feat for only 500 gold with a spring-loaded wrist sheath and medlance; an option which - as I pointed out earlier - is actually better than this feat because it doesn't require worship of Urgothoa, and because with the infusion discovery, you can actually use the medlance to inject an adjacent ally or hand the medlance *to* an ally for *them* to use as they see fit. And again, medlances explicitly call out extracts as being allowed.
Everyone in our Iron Gods party has two wrist sheaths each loaded with a medlance each loaded with an extract.
As others have said, I encourage you to actually try it before screaming that it's broken or OP.
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For those who think the move+swift benefit breaks the action economy or think it makes the feat too strong (despite its obvious roleplaying downside) and who insist that Paizo couldn't have *possibly* intended it to work that way, I'm still curious what your thoughts are over the fact that you can replicate the benefits of this feat for only 500 gold with a spring-loaded wrist sheath and medlance; an option which - as I pointed out earlier - is actually better than this feat because it doesn't require worship of Urgothoa, and because with the infusion discovery, you can actually use the medlance to inject an adjacent ally or hand the medlance *to* an ally for *them* to use as they see fit. And again, medlances explicitly call out extracts as being allowed.
Everyone in our Iron Gods party has two wrist sheaths each loaded with a medlance each loaded with an extract.
As others have said, I encourage you to actually try it before screaming that it's broken or OP.
Lol, you pointed out exactly what my PFS warpriest did before I had the space to get Potion Glutton (lvl 7). Swift to pop out the medlance, Move to use potion (enlarge person) and still a standard action left to attack (and roll twice due to greater weapon of the chosen). Now it's just a move action to retrieve a potion from my handy haversack and a swift to drink to enlarge while still having a standard left over. Being a warpriest with this option, I have no swift actions left over ever, obviously.
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A God specific feat is there to simulate a behavior that the God encourages in her worshippers - in this case guzzling potions. A DM may well extend that to worshippers of other gods. Speak to your GM. As it stands now worshipping Urgathoa is a limitation.
I would find a worshipper of an evil god distasteful if I played a good character. It would have an in game effect on that character. As a GM I would have NPCs react similarly. Worshipping Demon lords would have an in game impact in our game.
two things
I thought good characters wouldnt be so judgementalHow do you tell what god someone worships by looking at them
The way you would tell is by making a Knowledge Religion check when you see their holy symbol. If they don't have one, you'd have to ask or wait for them to mention it. And if they never mention it, it doesn't really matter which deity they follow.
My fighters very often worship Zon-Kuthon, though they never worship the evil aspects of that deity. To them, Zon-Kuthon is a deity of endurance and of purposely putting yourself in harms way. Zon-Kuthon is also a deity of law, which works well with a fighters honor. A fighter that goes around adventuring, defending allies by enduring the pain that would be directed at his allies, that is a Lawful Neutral worshipper of Zon-Kuthon.
There's also a pretty nifty trait for Zon-Kuthon followers that allow using Heal to cure deadly wounds twice per character per day, instead of just once.
Just because the deity is evil, doesn't mean the worshipers need to be evil. And if the worshiper isn't evil, they're probably not worshiping all aspects of that deity. When you pick a religion, you still retain your individuality. So when you pick a god, make a note regarding which aspects of the deity you subscribe to.