| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
only if they are played that way
| 20 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are new, then I apologize for what is to come next.
Here is you can opener. Here is your can of worms. Bye.
only if they are played that wayThey are bound by alignment to strictly follow rules are they not?
A modern world example. Many youth today like to drink as minors. The young Paladin would want to drink, would choose not to because of the law, and because he's lawful and honest would tell his friends why he won't go drinking. It kind of makes him an outsider and open to ridicule.
For the record, I've never drank, and I'm well into my adult years.
If his friends are also Good then they accept his decision to not drink rather than ridicule him, which is a Neutral act at best. Compare with Cayden Cailean, who is literally the God of Drinking; he very explicitly believes that, since drinking should be fun, if it ever is not fun you should not drink, whether that be because you simply don't like it or because it has become an addiction.
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can't pigeon-hole paladins like that. They run the gamut of personalities and each can interpret the ideals of L and G differently, and which they prioritise. There are a number of ways to handle any given situation that fulfil the LG requirement. And the paladin code is more flexible than most people allow for.
Insufferable players and GMs are the real problem for paladins.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paladins are lawful GOOD, not LAWFUL good. They always put what's right ahead of the rules. Outside of cases where there's a Good/Law conflict though, they are very much by-the-books. Being a Paladin does imply that you care about the rules and things being done the proper way, but only as far as it protects people's rights, lives and dignity.
A Paladin, if they knew their friend was innocent, would indeed break him out to save him from a wrongful execution. There's even a LG god whose entire gimmick is just and righteous executions. He would be pissed at this situation and one of his Paladins would probably fall for not stopping it.
The thing with Neutral Goods, or even non-Paladin Lawful Goods, is that they're not held to the same standard. You can know, with absolute 100% certainty, that a Paladin is not lying to you. Even the most vile villain, while he's unlikely to get any information from a Paladin, can rely on the truth when he is spoken to. A Paladin will heal you because you're hurt and defend you because you're innocent. They can technically have ulterior motives, but those motives are always something related to the greater Good. Not "people need my kind of help, they just don't know it yet" lower-case greater good, but the greater Good.
The thing is though, not even Paladins can be recognized on sight. You could guess that they're probably a worshiper of Iomedae if they have her holy symbol, but they could also be a Cleric or an Inquisitor or a pious Fighter or a sociopathic Norgorber cultist lying to you. Any adventurer who rescues the farmer's daughter will be treated like a hero, because that action is what makes them a hero. Not their class or alignment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder has unique codes for many of the gods in Inner Sea Gods.
For funsies lets look at Torags Paladin Code
Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
Good doesn't always mean nice.
A paladin of Abadar will be very different, with different priorities.Even 2 paladins of Torag can legitimately disagree about when to mislead foes, or when it is strategic to spare someone - neither would be wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Remember that paladins are lawful good. They respect authority because they think that it's a good thing. Unless the opposite it's true. Then they can ignore laws and act following the good path. It's also written in their basic code of conduct:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
That paladin may think that speeding is illegal because it increase the risk of incidents, and incidents may kill innocents. But if he's alone, maybe he wouldn't care. Maybe the paladin might pirate music because he knows that piracy gives more money in the pockets of the artist (it's a long story but in short people spend more in concerts than in DVD/CD or whatever, you can google it), and also believes that "lawful" music distributor pay too little to the artists.
For the murderer friend, the paladin would totally be mad with his friend, but it's a law that allows murder (as is a sentence of death) a fair one? No. At least it isn't from the point of view of the standard paladin, which encourages, while still both, good over law.For the last question, it all depends from the people who receive the paladin. They might just not trust lawful good people.
What are some examples of rules that Paladins might break without losing their status of Paladin?
That depends on the Paladin, the deity, the situation. Too many variables.
A paladin is neither a fool nor stupid. He will not break rules frivolously. There must always be a damn good reason.
Iomedae for instance would probably permit you to break out your imprisoned friend if they were a companion, but not if they were an acquaintance. And you would have to not endanger a guards life while doing so.
Abadaran Paladin would probably appeal legitimately and plead for clemency if that failed.
Dammerich has already been mentioned.
I will never abandon a companion, though I will honour sacrifice freely given.
What are some examples of rules that Paladins might break without losing their status of Paladin?
becoming a hellknight
Also, be careful how you define "Lawful" in relation to what it means when describing a character's alignment.
It can mean pro-community. It can mean things are better when working as a team (as opposed as working on your own). It can mean legalistic. It can mean honorable. It can be a code. It can mean organized. It can mean a respect for authority. It can mean you keep your promises and your keep your word. It can mean you're honest. It can mean you're tactically proficient. It can mean you make--and follow through on--plans.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
May I present, The Powder Keg of Justice, the gold standard of what it means to be a Paladin for me. Hope this answers a few of your questions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're the first person I've ever heard say that the paladin should lose his powers by doing that.
Though that does make me realize that the most important question of what will make a paladin fall is ultimately up to the GM. Though it tends to be an indicator of GM quality if they seem overly eager to make the paladin fall for the slightest reasons.
In other words, if you're playing a paladin, ask your GM how exactly he interprets the code, and what he considers a gross violation. Since you've mentioned you're the one who'll be GMing, it's ultimately up to you, though you shouldn't be too stringent. Playing a paladin should not be like traversing a minefield, nervous that any action will be taken by the GM as a cause to fall.
"Oh, you didn't say thank you? BAM! Lose your paladin powers!"
Are Paladins allowed to take Intimidate? Yes. Therefore that speech is the best example ever, and no way would I cause a Paladin to fall for that when then alternative is entire towns being poisoned.
Well, maybe I should reconsider that. It probably depends on the deity. Either that was a quite unlawful act [at least by today's standards], or quite the lie. It still serves the greater good, and an appropriate atonement may be in order [you know, once the world gets saved].
|
It all depends how PC's play their paladins, as legal stupid or Lawful good or Lawful Good.
Last night i was playing with my friend who was playing paladin. when we were tasked with a rescue mission- and we had to infiltrate a compound were the baddies were masquerading as slavers, in a region where slavery and slave-trade was legal.
He refused to enter into the compound that we're sneaking into, nor did he help us while we freed some of the slaves.
He only entered the compound when we encountered a summoner and i shouted "demon".
The paladin then entered under the premise that demons are a threat to everyone- and that anyone who attacks were in league with the demons.
I normally don't like paladins because they're not always too unique. I do like half orc redeemers though, because I can appreciate the role play. I also like the oaths because they encourage creativity. It's easy to fall into stereotypes. However, pretty much most of the super heroes are lawful good. It's a good alignment but I like all of them the character should be unique.
Something else to consider, lawful good likes the law, but not when its evil. Then they would want to try and make the law fair. For example in les miserable Enjolras is the rebellion leader fighting for justice and a free people. Be is lawful good. In the other hand, Gavroche is a prankster. He cares about people and helps, but he's there to screw with the French government he hates. I feel is worth noting, at the back of the core rulebook they credit les miserables as inspiration. Alignment maybe?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Michael Carpenter in the Dresden series of novels.
Best example of a paladin I've ever seen in a novel. neither Lawful stupid nor Stupid Good. Smart, tactical, faithful and determined, unbending personally while being understanding that not all others are the same way.
Hero all the way through. The most rock hard and reliable supporting character in the entire series.
As a paladin should be.
==Aelryinth
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paladin threads..., It's good to see you again old friend
May I present, The Powder Keg of Justice, the gold standard of what it means to be a Paladin for me. Hope this answers a few of your questions.Personally I'd treat that threat as a breach of code. Someone who must live and follow a code shouldn't be allowed to threaten others by swearing to breach that code.
In my opinion anyway.
Considering it a breach of code is a bit much but yeah, I agree that using the code as a threat is kind of opposed to the spirit of the law (which the Paladin should be adamantly in support of).
Something else to consider, lawful good likes the law, but not when its evil. Then they would want to try and make the law fair. For example in les miserable Enjolras is the rebellion leader fighting for justice and a free people. Be is lawful good. In the other hand, Gavroche is a prankster. He cares about people and helps, but he's there to screw with the French government he hates. I feel is worth noting, at the back of the core rulebook they credit les miserables as inspiration. Alignment maybe?
The credits are in many places inspirations for the campaign setting. I can definitely see the events and themes of Les Mis feeding into the duality of Andoran and Galt.
I've had fun playing a paladin, but there are a couple of things I did to keep her fun not just for me but for the party, or your character woln't get shanked in her sleep by the rouge.
Rule number one Lawful Stupid is usualy only fun for the player and why I know a bunch of GMs ban the class or require special permission.
Know your group paladins are easy to screw over, if your party or GM is going to try to break your class you might want to have a come to Sarenrae meeting before the game starts.
Some campaigns are not thematically appropriate for a paladin even if you're playing a strict personal code paladin, see Sparhawk from David Eddings' Elenium. Also if the party is mainly chaotic alignments you might want to save it for another campaign or come up with a really compelling plot reason for you to be with the party.
Give your character a personality and motivations beyond "Evil! Must Smite!"
Know starting out what your paladin's deity expects of them. The paladin codes are kind of awesome for that. If it's a home brew god ask your GM to write one up for you. If your playing Code of Honor write it down and have the GM OK it.
Last if you're putting Law before Good nine times out of 10 you're playing it wrong.
"The law of the land" is one, but not the only, aspect of a lawful alignment. Many (or most) powerful leaders of lasting, society-wide change for good spent time in jail.
|
just trying to collect other's thoughts (...) I don't do well with subjective material
Good luck with that :P
Anyway, to get to your questions:
But how might Paladins really be treated? *All* Paladins are good, and keep their word, are virtuous, etc, so I would think they would be welcomed openly by strangers (provided the stranger knew they were a Paladin). But what would they be like to travel with, to be friends with? In a real world setting I imagine they'd be the type to never speed, not jay-walk, never pirate music or movies, adhere to any lawful curfew, etc. ugh, sickening to me!
Paladins want to do Good, and believe that Law is the best way to achieve it on a large scale. For a big society to work together to achieve the greatest good for the greatest many, it's important to implement just rules and stick by them, even if it's sometimes uncomfortable.
A paladin would not speed unless absolutely necessary, because it really does increase the chance of accidents. It also sets a bad example for others who are not so capable of judging when it would be safe/necessary to do so. They'd also be wary of the sliding scale where "acceptable risk" shifts just a little bit over time, until at some point you may be responsible for an accident that injures others.
Note that society does recognize instances where speeding is justified, and implements a legal framework for that: ambulances and fire trucks have sirens for that sort of thing.
Jaywalking is not really anything to be proud of. It's not the end of the world either; if a street is deserted, who cares. On a street with some traffic though, it's basically selfishness. Instead of a slight detour or waiting a little longer, you instead increase the risk of an accident happening or just annoying all the other people who have to stop for you.
If a legal curfew is instituted, presumably there was a good reason for it. Why are you so special that you get to choose which rules apply to you? How can you expect others to abide by rules made for the common good, if you won't?
Music piracy is a difficult subject, and rather hard to explain in terms of fantasy society. Let's just say that not everyone agrees whether current copyright laws constitute the "legitimate authority" paladins should uphold. Even so, the paladin might argue that the high road would be to change the copyright laws, rather than take the law into your own hands.
But worse, your Paladin knows a man is innocent of committing a murder, but the friend is lawfully found guilty and sentenced to death. As a Neutral Good person in a medieval setting I'd break my friend out. But can the Paladin do this? It would be breaking a fair law.
Here we bump into the big issue: the paladin respects legitimate authority. Presumably there is an appeal process; he should try that. If the state's machinery is so bureaucratic or corrupt that this doesn't work, then it may be time to start a revolution, because the state has forsaken its commitment to Justice, and therefore lost legitimacy. Our real-world history has quite a few documents where people carefully argue the legal right for people to rise up against their government (Dutch Act of Abjuration, American Declaration of Independence, current French constitution...) if it fails in its aims.
Then again, it might be that the trial was really fair, but an innocent ends up condemned all the same. Maybe an enemy framed him perfectly. Maybe the defendant just looked too guilty to the jury (Frankenstein's monster situation).
That situation is a real dilemma for the paladin. If he knows the defendant is innocent, but can't prove it, he may have to let it happen.
Then again, if he knows the defendant is innocent, why isn't he on the witness stand, cheerfully submitting to any truth-compulsions to be found? If a judge knows you're a paladin, knows you're speaking the truth and you claim the defendant is innocent, how can a guilty verdict be just? And then it's no longer legitimate authority, and the gloves come off.
Would a Neutral Good Fighter (or Wizard, etc) who does his best to protect and support others be just as well received as a Paladin?
Morally, he should be. But there's also the Charisma-class superstar factor vs. the wizards special effects budget. It's like Captain America vs. Tony Stark. (Who is probably more like chaotic good, at best.)
If a legal curfew is instituted, presumably there was a good reason for it. Why are you so special that you get to choose
Well if this is a pathfinder campaign the paladin is about 1000 times more likely to be able to solve whatever problem caused the curfew than the authorities.
|
|
Well if this is a pathfinder campaign the paladin is about 1000 times more likely to be able to solve whatever problem caused the curfew than the authorities.
If a legal curfew is instituted, presumably there was a good reason for it. Why are you so special that you get to choose
If he really is more suited, then he could offer his assistance and get deputized to deal with it. Then he's not ignoring the curfew, he's working with the system to make things better. Pool resources. Perfect if your problem is undead or orcs.
But if the reason for the curfew is a nasty thieves' guild, or foreign seditionists, the paladin will probably get in the way of the police. Look at the amount of skill points paladins get, and how Wisdom tends to be a dump stat; it's clearly not their speciality. Send in the inquisitors instead.
May I present, The Powder Keg of Justice, the gold standard of what it means to be a Paladin for me. Hope this answers a few of your questions.Personally I'd treat that threat as a breach of code. Someone who must live and follow a code shouldn't be allowed to threaten others by swearing to breach that code.
In my opinion anyway.
Intimidate checks make Paladins fall now ha.
The flip side of your statement would be that if the code no longer allowed for the Paladin character to do what he believes is right then he should absolutely cast aside his code. In his heart, that would be the "right" thing.
I mean honestly that is some pure roleplaying gold right there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
#4567457089
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It never ceases to amaze me that the only class that people seem obsessed to alignment check is the paladin.
May I present, The Powder Keg of Justice, the gold standard of what it means to be a Paladin for me. Hope this answers a few of your questions.
Just read that, and he should have gotten a plus 20 on the roll for the awesomeness of it.
|
|
No, you can't always trust a Paladin. Why? Because Paladins are not infallible.
Someone attaining Paladin status is a big deal. This is obvious. Being a Paladin, however, is not something that's bestowed upon the recipient like Sorcerous blood or Oracular gifts; it's something that takes devotion and work.
What this means, however, is that Paladins can totally lie, steal, and commit all sorts of atrocities. Being a Paladin does not make you trustworthy; being trustworthy makes you a Paladin. You don't trust a Paladin any more than a good fighter with a reputation. A Paladin EARNS it, and proves it time and again.
Yiou should keep in mind that all Paladins do not value the same things. A paladin of Erastil would support an arranged marraige that made the community safer. A paladin of Shelyn would likely fight to prevent a marriage without love. If you look at the paladin codes in Inner Sea Gods and spend some time thinking on it, there are other situations where you could have two paladins fighting and they are both "in the right" as far as their codes and their gods are concerned.
Michael Carpenter in the Dresden series of novels.
Best example of a paladin I've ever seen in a novel. neither Lawful stupid nor Stupid Good. Smart, tactical, faithful and determined, unbending personally while being understanding that not all others are the same way.
Hero all the way through. The most rock hard and reliable supporting character in the entire series.
As a paladin should be.
==Aelryinth
I will second everything that is said here. Michael doesn't always get involved in a problem because of the shades of grey involved but once he knows that there is evil to fight whoever is looking at the business end of his sword is in for a world of hurt.
|
|
There is a whole book available which you can use to make not just Paladins but the Alignment rules as a whole a lot more interesting and useful for role-play.
Two paladins have discovered a child, who has been made a living portal to the eldritch beings who should not be gazed upon. In five minutes, the portal will open, and Armageddon will ensue. There is no way to contact the casters necessary to close the rift in time. Killing the host will disrupt the portal. One paladin refuses to slay an innocent, and actively protects the child. The other slays the first paladin, then the child. Who falls? Both? None? One? Unfortunately, the answer is probably the paladin who stopped armageddon, by the system. Alignment is a remnant of a far worse game, and should be carved off with a hack saw.
It would depend on the gods involved, but most likely the paladin that protected the innocent should atone for a chaotic act. He selfishly chose to protect one person to the detriment of many more innocents. For most paladins, the good of the many should outweigh the good of the few.
I do agree that the alignment system is and always has been poorly implemented. I haven't found one I really like. Part of the problem is historic and another part of it is the absolute nature of how it has been implemented. It would probably be better to do something like this as a divine relationship score -- how much do the gods approve of your actions.