Guys,
Love the game. It's been one of my best go to solitaire experiences in some time
However as we discussed some months ago, the Army banes are crazily out of whack in difficulty for 6 player parties. So much so, that I would put forward the thought that you only playtest at the 2-4 level. (LOTR LCG suffered from a similar lapse at the 4 player count)
So I am somewhat chagrined to open City of Locusts and find that the Onslaught on Drezen contains an Abyssal Army at each location.
These armies have exactly 6 checks you can make; Combat, Combat, Arcane, Divine, Knowledge, and Acrobatics.
The first 5 are fine, but Acrobatics is somewhat rare. So in essence a 6 player party must make 7x 23 checks with a single d4. Even if everyone throws in a blessing you are getting 7-9 d4 max. Since no one has the skill, your mythic paths are of no help in bonus, nor can you spend charges to gain access to a d20.
This cannot have been looked at, as it is physically impossible to achieve 7 of these checks in a vacuum, much less a game in which @6 players you only refill your hands 4 times each before the end. (And where blessings are often used as explores due to the speed necessary to complete an 80 odd card challenge in 30 turns)
My accusation that this wasn't looked at is somewhat confirmed by the Troop card we have available. Here we have a mechanism that could have provided a get out of jail aspect to a party missing a critical skill. But this opportunity was spurned and the skills listed on the troop card are Melee, Ranged, Fortitude, Knowledge, Divine and Arcane.
Nice buffs assuredly. But no Acrobatics there either!
So as I did earlier in the Adventure Path I will rule that a 3rd combat 40 check is available, and stop gnashing my teeth and tearing my beard regarding this issue.
PS I do realize WotR Kyra provides an escape clause. But not every party will have her either!
Further Sidebar. Even houseruled it is still an incredibly hard bane to defeat.
I started the scenario and Alain as the very first action gallops to the Armory to stock up.
First card is the Abyssal Army. Things are going swimmingly until both Seelah and Balazar failed their checks via some abysmal rolls (pun intended)
So Balazar is hand-wiped before he gets his first turn. The Armory has all 9 boons replaced by random monsters and the party loses 19 mythic charges.
Should be a fun scenario....
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At that point I'd just restart the scenario, you got crapped on turn 1, no reason to keep going at that point. Just do nothing for the remaining 29 turns to burn down the blessings deck (as long as there aren't any start/end of turn effects at the locations you're at or due to a scenario power), and then reset everything back to stage 1.
Your criticism is valid, although I'm pretty positive that this was playtested with 6-player groups. That being said, playtests don't catch every issue. They do catch a lot of issues you don't know about though (because said issues are fixed before the main cards get printed/released).
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I'll throw out there that Balazar shouldn't have had a hand wipe unless you spent all of his cards helping others with their checks, since Abyssal Armies are barriers and don't deal any damage to my recollection.
We were lucky and scouted out two of them early on and spent the rest of the game getting our hands set to kill the two armies and heading over to the Sanctum with Leyrn with as many explores as possible. We got lucky and wrapped it up in one go. Only having to fight two armies and knowing where the villain was made that much easier, but armies are a bear and I won't miss them if they aren't there in the next set.
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The Quarterstaff of Vaulting, Kyra, and Enora (Librarian) could easily have made some of that army testing slip by, unfortunately. I'd suggest making appropriate changes to make it difficult but more dealable for your particular group makeup.
You mean WotR Enora (Occularium Scholar); there's also WotR Shardra (Visionary).
It is unfortunate that nobody who comes with the set has Acrobatics, though. :/
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I have to agree with this. I'm not sure there is a Base or Add-on character that has Acrobatics as a skill. Ekkie does, but not everyone has access to her. That puts an inordinate amount of card pressure on a large group with slim margins of success. In my 6 character solo game, I have both Enora and Kyra that can help cover a skill deficit, but even so, when I played that scenario I started heavily scouting locations after closing 2 so I could isolate the Villian. I did end up only having to face two of those armies.
There is a huge time sink for Armies in a 6 player game as it is. Spending 15-20 minutes trying to figure out optimal skill/card usages to meet the checks just makes it worse. If Armies or similar cards are presented in the future, they should have 7 possible checks, leaving a bit more wiggle room for large groups.
I'll throw out there that Balazar shouldn't have had a hand wipe unless you spent all of his cards helping others with their checks, since Abyssal Armies are barriers and don't deal any damage to my recollection.
Even if it's a combat check? I will have to reread the rules on that but you may be correct sir!
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Yep, even combat checks for barriers don't cause damage. It's a rare tool in the box, but it's been done a couple times.
Thanks Keith, I just came back to report his assertion was correct.
Thematically weird, but I'll take it :)
At that point I'd just restart the scenario, you got crapped on turn 1, no reason to keep going at that point. Just do nothing for the remaining 29 turns to burn down the blessings deck (as long as there aren't any start/end of turn effects at the locations you're at or due to a scenario power), and then reset everything back to stage 1.
Your criticism is valid, although I'm pretty positive that this was playtested with 6-player groups. That being said, playtests don't catch every issue. They do catch a lot of issues you don't know about though (because said issues are fixed before the main cards get printed/released).
I intend to play it out actually. I don't know if that's a fault in my character, but if I can still win with such a start it will be glorious.
Update
This run through is going from the sublime to the ridiculous :)
We are up to Turn 5, and so far we have encountered 3 Abyssal Armies.
The first was a spectacular fail as documented above, the second was passed by using almost every blessing the party possessed. This has completely depleted Kyra's hand. Seoni's turn was going to be risky and sure enough first card in her location deck was the only bane, another Abyssal Army.
Since Kyra was without cards, we failed it. The Party as a whole now has 6/36 Mythic charges (amusing as we gained 6 for defeating the one Abyssal Army)
Update Turn 7
Imrijka meets a 4th Abyssal Army at the Defender's Heart and fails her combat check.
The Party as a whole now has 1/36 Mythic charges and there are 3 locations overrun by Demons.
I need a beer.
Man; just a slightly different party and you might've have closed 4 locations already. I don't see much of a path from here, though. Those mythic charges are really important for succeeding at those checks!
I have a ready reckoner for the characters and their major skills. Typically the major combat checks are at +12 or so before you add the weapon or spell
Losing 6 from that is painful as you say ;)
I'm making some dinner for my son and I. I will continue the odyssey once that is done!
Update Turn 11
6 Abyssal Armies now met, the last being defeated. 2 locations are closed, but 3 others are overrun.
The Party as a whole now has 6/36 Mythic charges, but on the bright side, Aponavicius is revealed atop the Sanctum
Update Turn 15
Balazar encounters Black Flame Vrolikai at the Defender's Heart, of course rolls a 1 and his role card is buried. He defeats it anyway, and closes the location (that was last card)
3 closed now!
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The Party as a whole now has 6/36 Mythic charges (amusing as we gained 6 for defeating the one Abyssal Army)I think defeating a Mythic bane only gives the character who encountered it a charge (page 22).
I would put it to you Malcolm that they all encounter it. (Otherwise how can they be rolling checks to defeat)
If your interpretation is correct they might wish to change the wording to initially encounter.
There's no harm done either way for this outing, see below.
Update Turn 18
Kyra meets the Abyssal Army lurking at the Marketplace and Balazar fails his Knowledge check (even after a re-roll mind) to give us yet another defeat.
The Party as a whole now has 0/36 Mythic charges,3 Locations are closed and all except Sanctum are overrun.
All is not lost! I am positioning for a targeted strike on Aponavicius while the other characters fight a rear guard against the demonic hordes (Temp closes)
Aponavicius is dead!
Turn 21 sees Alain and Balazar corner her at the Sanctum and using every last ounce of courage and willpower they are able to bring about her downfall.
Kyra, Seelah, Seoni, and Imrijka successfully closed their locations to enable such a stirring and triumphant victory
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Congratulations!
Hard won fights are the best. Reminds me of the fight my group had back in the base set in Vengeance at Sundered Crag.
Yes taking on the Villian without charges and only two blessings to share amongst two 30+ checks was nail biting, but fun!
Get out of my head!! I was coming here to post a very similar rant on the army barriers.
I typically play 4 character solo games (5 for Wrath once Arueshalae becomes available). I've toyed with a few different house rule variants to make them bearable, but when I try to play them as written, I end up getting stressed out.
While I appreciate the thematic ideas behind the cards, they are a huge pain to play with in practice. They have the most difficult checks to defeat out of all of the deck 6 henchmen, they require more checks to defeat than any other bane in the set, they have incredibly severe penalties for failure, and the only upside seems to be that you get to close your location automatically (which is only marginally helpful if you've got characters exploring locations with favorable closing conditions).
I really love Wrath overall (I'm on my 4th trip through the game, and I have one more group that's through deck 4), but I can't for the life of me figure out why a bane this brutal shows up in such great numbers. Is there some sort of work around that I'm not seeing? Something other than throw in blessings and hope you don't roll poorly, I mean.
The Party as a whole now has 6/36 Mythic charges (amusing as we gained 6 for defeating the one Abyssal Army)I think defeating a Mythic bane only gives the character who encountered it a charge (page 22).I would put it to you Malcolm that they all encounter it. (Otherwise how can they be rolling checks to defeat)
If your interpretation is correct they might wish to change the wording to initially encounter.
There's no harm done either way for this outing, see below.
This is unfortunately not the case, but given your tenacity in continuing a scenario many others would just give up on and restart, I don't think anyone would begrudge you of doing it this way for this scenario (maybe it makes up for you mistakenly taking damage from losing Combat checks against barriers).
Only the character that flips the army is the one that encounters it. While everyone is pitching in a check, the army does not say every character encounters it, it says every character attempts a check to defeat -- there is a difference there. It is a single encounter with 1-6 checks to defeat being performed during it.
I said 'no harm no foul' as any charges that were mistakenly given were soon lost to continued army defeats
As a sidebar. I don't think that language is clear then. Typically if the game wants you to interact with a card and roll a check to defeat it speaks of encountering it.
It's definitely weird, but it's how we played it all the way through Wrath. If you think about it with Villains who have multiple checks, another character might be attempting a check, but they're not ~encountering~ the villain.
In English if you face something, you encounter it.
Furthermore some of the cards use exactly that language to mean that other players have to roll against the same card. Thus my interpretation.
If they want to make a distinction between the character that initially turns the card over and those that have to (and I almost used the word encounter as it seems best) ' interact ' with the card then I believe we should lock that language down
Encounter has always had a very specific meaning in the game. Only the first character to engage with a card encounters it.
Furthermore some of the cards use exactly that language to mean that other players have to roll against the same card. Thus my interpretation.
Can you give an example of this? I can't recall it.
I'm on iPad for the moment, but along the lines of another character at this location also encounters this monster. Meaning they too must roll against it, albeit in that case their roll may or may not not have any bearing on defeating the original. As I said, it needs tidying up
Yes, if it says "someone else summons and encounters this monster", then there are multiple encounters. If it doesn't say that, then there aren't. The language is perfectly fine, and it's already established that a single encounter can encompass multiple checks (villains with multiple "THEN" checks to defeat, for instance). Furthermore, the only time multiple encounters makes sense is when all additional encounters are summoned; otherwise things just horribly break. There is no summoning going on when fighting armies either.
*cough* Visionary Shardra has an ability that lets her use knowledge in place of any skill to defeat a barrier. In my group, I (playing Shardra) would typically make 3-4 of the checks on the abyssal army.
Аhem, I don't think you can use Shardra's skill for anyone else's check beside Shardra's ...
Shardra's skill CAN be used on other players with a skill feat, though I think the ruling was they had to use ~their~ Knowledge skill? (fortunately, Shardra has totems to share the Knowledge around)
Though I'm wondering if a different misinterpretation is at play here. The army barriers aren't like villains, where any character can do as many of the checks as they want as long as the encountering character does one, each character's required to do a check (and not all checks have to be done, if you have fewer than six characters).
Shardra's skill CAN be used on other players with a skill feat, though I think the ruling was they had to use ~their~ Knowledge skill?
Yes. This is clarified in the FAQ. With the power feat, Shardra can enable other players at her location to use their own Knowledge skill instead of any listed skill against a barrier.
With the power feat, Shardra can enable other players at her location to use their own Knowledge skill instead of any listed skill against a barrier.
Thankfully, her very next power feat is: "Characters may gain the skill Knowledge: Wisdom +2 while at your location." Most of the characters that feat would likely help in this sort of situation only have a d6 or d8 for Wisdom, but blessing d6s or d8s is way better than blessing d4s. At the very least, d6s and d8s are more fun to roll than d4s...
For me, the issue isn't so much that there aren't characters who are good against armies (there are). My issue is that if you don't build your characters to deal with armies, these scenarios can become nearly unbeatable. For example, Shardra's Visionary role is awesome, but if you are interested in taking her Spirit Guide role instead you are shooting yourself in the foot unless you have Kyra or Enora in your group. If Enora's in your group, but Kyra isn't, she has to take Occularium Scholar over Eldritch Savant.
While I don't necessarily have a problem with building optimal parties as a solo player building multi-character parties, I don't like the idea that choosing the wrong feat or card or role can totally derail a playthrough.
Sidebar. When I built my group, the whole concept of armies was unknown to us at that time
There was no way to 'plan' an optimal group
Nor should we have to. Honestly WOTR should be playable for any character currently released. You should just be more successful with WOTR focused characters
Exactly. No one knew aside from playtesters, I guess. That's one of the main problems with the design of these cards.
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With the power feat, Shardra can enable other players at her location to use their own Knowledge skill instead of any listed skill against a barrier.Thankfully, her very next power feat is: "Characters may gain the skill Knowledge: Wisdom +2 while at your location." Most of the characters that feat would likely help in this sort of situation only have a d6 or d8 for Wisdom, but blessing d6s or d8s is way better than blessing d4s. At the very least, d6s and d8s are more fun to roll than d4s...
Get yourself some of these d4s Much better to roll, and they don't kill your foot if they get stepped on. (Also, I don't know anything about that site, just the first one I found with a picture on a quick search)
Get yourself some of these d4s Much better to roll, and they don't kill your foot if they get stepped on. (Also, I don't know anything about that site, just the first one I found with a picture on a quick search)
Yeah, I've seen them before. Maybe I'll pick some up from the Chessex booth at PAX East this year. Although now that I'm done with S&S and won't be using them for Jirelle's rapier damage, they likely won't see as much play. Balthazar, quite mercifully, doesn't have any d4s skills, although I might sack the occasional monster for a d4. Perhaps I'll play a mage-type character in the RPG that casts a bunch of high-level Magic Missiles.
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Maybe I'll pick some up from the Chessex booth at PAX East this year.
45 Days until Pax East! I'm not excited or anything.
