Charging While Squeezing

[LaMar Fullmer]

I was told that I could not charge with my cavalier while my mount was squeezing

My Mount has Dragon Style: Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

Charging: Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Here is the rules for Squeezing:

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Please, I can't make a just claim either way sense squeezing does not explicitly say movement impeding effect.

[Nefreet]

Greetings, LaMar.

What you've encountered is one of the many cases of differing interpretations of the rules. Some people believe that counting one square as two is an impediment, but as you've pointed out obviously others do not.

I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved over to the Rules Questions Forum so it can best get the attention it deserves. Hopefully one of these days this sort of language will be visited in an FAQ, because it is certainly asked quite often. Perhaps your thread will be the one to do it!

Best of luck =)

[Sebastian Hirsch]

This isn't a PFS specific question, but without doing some more research on the topic, but since squeezing does require you to spend more movement for less squares you could make a convincing case that this counts as "hinder".

[Wraith235]

SRD wrote:

Tactical Movement

Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can't take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

You can't run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.

Sadly I can see both sides of the argument ... Dragon style specifically calls out Obstacles and Difficult Terrain ... not "Hampered Movement" ....

unfortunately the rule-set does itself no favors on this since squeezing is not a condition which makes this a real Muck storm

if it were me making the call I would agree that squeezing is not covered by dragon style ... but not without some serious reservations, including being open to correction later as well as an apology to any player I ruled that way against ...

Unfortunately Squeezing isn't even considered hampered movement so that argument isn't even valid and as such I would consider it not "a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement"

[Andrew Christian]

Since there is a whole archetype (narrow frame) and monster ability (compression) that would specifically mitigate squeezing, and Dragon Style does not consider squeezing, I would say that Dragon Style does not mitigate the squeezed condition.

Charge also doesn't mention squeezing directly, but if you draw lines for charging per the rules, then the path of the charge would be impeded by a narrow path in front of the large creature. It would make sense that while squeezed this would also apply.

Expect Table Variation. However I'd expect most variation to err on the side of not allowing a charge while squeezed.

[LaMar Fullmer]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Since there is a whole archetype (narrow frame) and monster ability (compression) that would specifically mitigate squeezing, and Dragon Style does not consider squeezing, I would say that Dragon Style does not mitigate the squeezed condition.

Charge also doesn't mention squeezing directly, but if you draw lines for charging per the rules, then the path of the charge would be impeded by a narrow path in front of the large creature. It would make sense that while squeezed this would also apply.

Expect Table Variation. However I'd expect most variation to err on the side of not allowing a charge while squeezed.

I'm sorry could you show/explain the archetype you mention. I looked into Narrow frame/Lithe Attacker Feat which does not change the the movement penalty, I also reviewed all Cavalier archetypes approved by Paizo. To my knowledge there isn't anything that specifically causes you to ignore the movement penalty due to squeezing.

Honestly to me IF I were to think of it reasonably I would see the creature squeezing until it got out of the corridor it was squeezing through and then at that point/area if there was sufficient distance for a charge (10 ft) and through all of the distance did not exceed 2 times the mount's speed the charge should legal. I view it really as *wiggle* *wiggle* *wiggle* I'm free, CHARGE!

[Andrew Christian]

Animal Archive has narrow frame archetype for your animal. It allows a large creature to move normally through a 5 foot passage.

[Otagian]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Animal Archive has narrow frame archetype for your animal. It allows a large creature to move normally through a 5 foot passage.

Only removes the static penalties. Doesn't effect your movement.

[Nefreet]

It's also a feat, not an archetype.

[Wraith235]

ya I almost quoted that feat then looked it up

[LaMar Fullmer]

Right now, it seems that there is no way to just ignore the squeezing affecting movement.... just not able to get past that fact so, the DM rule that a 2 to 1 ratio for movement is considered a movement impairing affect. What I need is a real Paizo ruling whether or not Squeezing would be deemed under movement impairing or not or if special rules would be placed like I said earlier it's easy for me to see the character wiggling until it's free and then charging.

[LaMar Fullmer]

After reviewing what I wrote Specifically I would have it written as such:

Charging: Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

IF you are squeezing at the start of your charge move your character at normal squeezing movement penalty. When the character is no longer under the affects of squeezing you must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) to complete the charge, failure to move 10 feet results in a double move action.

[Nefreet]

LaMar Fullmer wrote:

What I need is a real Paizo ruling whether or not Squeezing would be deemed under movement impairing or not

The best way to accomplish that would be to link to past discussions to show that this is a frequently asked question, and that the rules are ambiguous. If you do some legwork and can show that this is a regularly contentious issue, and you can get enough people asking for a similar ruling, then it will advance up the FAQ queue.

Hopefully this thread will get moved over to the appropriate Forum soon so that you have the best chance of getting your ruling. It's not a decision that can be made here.

[Andrew Christian]

LaMar Fullmer wrote:

Right now, it seems that there is no way to just ignore the squeezing affecting movement.... just not able to get past that fact so, the DM rule that a 2 to 1 ratio for movement is considered a movement impairing affect. What I need is a real Paizo ruling whether or not Squeezing would be deemed under movement impairing or not or if special rules would be placed like I said earlier it's easy for me to see the character wiggling until it's free and then charging.

I'm not sure how you could parse it differently to be honest.

If you are under an affect that makes you move more slowly, how is that not a movement impairing effect?

[BigNorseWolf]

I think your DM is right. "Such as" indicates that what follows isn't a complete list.

[kinevon]

A couple of fairly minor points:
Except in rare circumstances, you are unable to end your turn while squeezing, so you can't start your turn in an area where you are squeezing.

A charge occupies your entire turn, so, unlike 4E where you could move then charge as a standard action, you are moving at least 10', counting your entire distance moved during the turn, with an option, if the distance you charge is within a single move action's distance, that you can also draw a weapon during the charge.

Unfortunately, charging carries a lot of limitations, so it can be difficult to set up without a lot of cooperation.

[Wraith235]

Martin Weil wrote:

A couple of fairly minor points:

Except in rare circumstances, you are unable to end your turn while squeezing, so you can't start your turn in an area where you are squeezing.

I actually think this is incorrect ... the squeezing rules were quoted above in total ... and nowhere does it say you cant end your turn

Like I said before it would be easier if squeezing was considered a condition (which I think it really should be TBH)

[kinevon]

Wraith235 wrote:

Martin Weil wrote:

A couple of fairly minor points:

Except in rare circumstances, you are unable to end your turn while squeezing, so you can't start your turn in an area where you are squeezing.

I actually think this is incorrect ... the squeezing rules were quoted above in total ... and nowhere does it say you cant end your turn

Like I said before it would be easier if squeezing was considered a condition (which I think it really should be TBH)

I mis-remembered the can't end a move in the same space part of the squeezing rules.

[Andrew Christian]

Martin Weil wrote:

Wraith235 wrote:

Martin Weil wrote:

A couple of fairly minor points:

Except in rare circumstances, you are unable to end your turn while squeezing, so you can't start your turn in an area where you are squeezing.

I actually think this is incorrect ... the squeezing rules were quoted above in total ... and nowhere does it say you cant end your turn

Like I said before it would be easier if squeezing was considered a condition (which I think it really should be TBH)

I mis-remembered the can't end a move in the same space part of the squeezing rules.

Its not under the squeezing rules. Its under the movement in combat rules. You cannot end your turn occupying the same space as another creature.

[Wraith235]

ya that one I knew ... spent a ridiculous amount of time researching that rule for Bonekeep 2

[Jason Wu]

Belt of the Weasel.

Gives you Compression. Go ahead, charge through ridiculously miniscule spaces.

-j

[BigNorseWolf]

Jason Wu wrote:

Belt of the Weasel.

Gives you Compression. Go ahead, charge through ridiculously miniscule spaces.

-j

Good find, but you need to see if your critter takes the belt slot (not the belt, saddle slot) and then spend the feat on it. Well worth it if you can though...

[kinevon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Martin Weil wrote:

Wraith235 wrote:

Martin Weil wrote:

A couple of fairly minor points:

Except in rare circumstances, you are unable to end your turn while squeezing, so you can't start your turn in an area where you are squeezing.

I actually think this is incorrect ... the squeezing rules were quoted above in total ... and nowhere does it say you cant end your turn

Like I said before it would be easier if squeezing was considered a condition (which I think it really should be TBH)

I mis-remembered the can't end a move in the same space part of the squeezing rules.

Its not under the squeezing rules. Its under the movement in combat rules. You cannot end your turn occupying the same space as another creature.

The Squeezing rules reiterate it:

A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

[Avatar-1]

I don't think the intent of "You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw." considers squeezing through a narrow gap, especially with a mount without Compression (or Belt of the Weasel).

Difficult terrain is usually something on the floor to impede movement.

Does the cavalier have Dragon Style as well? In a mount-and-rider situation, I would think both of them would need it to benefit? There might be a rule that sidesteps that?

If both the rider and the mount had Dragon Style, and the mount had Compression, then I'd say go for it.

[Ascalaphus]

Deciding if something is difficult terrain is tricky. On the one hand we have a definition for difficult terrain:

CRB > Combat wrote:

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.

On the other hand, the Environment chapter is full of terrain types that meet this definition:

• "It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square with dense rubble."
  
• "A space covered with light undergrowth costs 2 squares of movement to move into"
  
• "Heavy undergrowth costs 4 squares of movement to move into"
  
• "It costs 2 squares of movement to move into a square with a shallow bog"
  
• " It costs Medium or larger creatures 4 squares of movement to move into a square with a deep bog"
  
• " It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square covered by an ice sheet"
  

Note that heavy undergrowth features in the definition of difficult terrain, but actually turns out to cost 4 squares to enter, so some difficult terrain is actually "very difficult".

---

With all that said, is squeezing "difficult terrain" that can be overcome with for example Feather Step Slippers? I don't think so - it's not really a property of the terrain that your mount is too fat. Then again, some difficult terrain is inconsequential to sufficiently big creatures, so difficult terrain is somewhat relative.

[Turkina_B]

Maybe I am miss interpreting this but if it costs 2 or more squares to move one is that not slowing you down?
If that is the case then the

PRD wrote:

If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

- emphasis is mine.

[James Risner]

Turkina_B wrote:

Maybe I am miss interpreting this but if it costs 2 or more squares to move one is that not slowing you down?

If that is the case then the

PRD wrote:

If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

- emphasis is mine.

+1

I don't think Dragon Style fixes slowed movement. I'm also unsure whether or not a mount can activate a style feat without Int 3+.

This is also the first time I've ever seen this line of logic, that squeezing isn't something that blocks charging. I think it is also blocked by the "If any line from your starting space to ending space passes through a square that blocks movement" if you squeeze through an area and as a result the line on either side goes through a wall with a passage you squeezed through.

[Ascalaphus]

I think Dragon Style does help with difficult terrain:

Dragon Style wrote:

You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw.

However, difficult terrain is one of a group of things that could slow movement. So all the other things that slow movement in a square could still hinder your charge.

I find it questionable (but not utterly unthinkable) that squeezing is a sort of "relative difficult terrain" which Dragon Style can overcome.

[Nefreet]

James Risner wrote:

I'm also unsure whether or not a mount can activate a style feat without Int 3+.

It would need Int 3+ to take the feat, so that's covered.