Are we certain Rapid Shot actually applies to kinetic blasts?! I know there are some weapon feats that can be used with them, but remember that blasts are a standard action...period. One shot per round, AFAIK.
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Rapid Shot definitely does not work with kinetic blasts. Rapid Shot calls out taking a Full Attack with a ranged weapon. Kinetic blast is only a Standard Action, even when used in conjunction with Flurry of Blasts. Also kinetic blasts are not ranged weapons, they are ranged attacks which are very different things. I don't see anyone saying you could use Rapid Shot with Scorching Ray. Metakinesis is the only way to get additional ranged attacks with kinetic blasts and that's not until higher level.
Rapid Shot definitely does not work with kinetic blasts. Rapid Shot calls out taking a Full Attack with a ranged weapon. Kinetic blast is only a Standard Action, even when used in conjunction with Flurry of Blasts. Also kinetic blasts are not ranged weapons, they are ranged attacks which are very different things. I don't see anyone saying you could use Rapid Shot with Scorching Ray. Metakinesis is the only way to get additional ranged attacks with kinetic blasts and that's not until higher level.
That is because Rapid Shot only works with a "Weapon". Scorching Ray is a spell. Now, Reach Metamagic applied to Chill Touch should work with Rapid Shot because then it is a weapon usable at range 1/level.
Okay, so... any chance if Combat Stamina can be used to boost attack rolls for a kinetic blast?
Okay, so... any chance if Combat Stamina can be used to boost attack rolls for a kinetic blast?You should be able to. It's an attack roll after all.
I was checking the feat on the SRD and it mentioned natural or manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes... I remember seeing something that kinetic blast counts as a weapon for weapon focus, but I am not sure this applies or if Stamina was errata´d.
If it does work, it is a nice way to have little more accuracy and not waste your blasts, whatever other feats you can use it on. A pool based on constitution is pretty great for a kineticist.
Rapid Shot does work if you have the ability to make a ranged attack action with the blast as part of a full attack.
So it works with an Elemental Annihilator using Flurry of Devastation. That's it. It will not work on a normal kinetic blast.
Thank you, Imbicatus! I was just about to type that very same explanation. If it were not for the specific reference to Rapid Shot working with Flurry of Devastation, then the argument could potentially be made, but I still would not agree with it for my reasons stated above. Flurry of Devastation proves that regular kinetic blast does not work with Rapid Shot as you cannot make a full attack action with kinetic blast.
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Thank you, Imbicatus! I was just about to type that very same explanation. If it were not for the specific reference to Rapid Shot working with Flurry of Devastation, then the argument could potentially be made, but I still would not agree with it for my reasons stated above. Flurry of Devastation proves that regular kinetic blast does not work with Rapid Shot as you cannot make a full attack action with kinetic blast.Rapid Shot does work if you have the ability to make a ranged attack action with the blast as part of a full attack.
So it works with an Elemental Annihilator using Flurry of Devastation. That's it. It will not work on a normal kinetic blast.
This is how I figured it worked myself, as the standard action use of KB seemed to disallow rapid shot normally.
EDIT: Although seeing that people seem to think you get more attacks as your BAB increases means there's a good reason for my guide.
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Thank you, Imbicatus! I was just about to type that very same explanation. If it were not for the specific reference to Rapid Shot working with Flurry of Devastation, then the argument could potentially be made, but I still would not agree with it for my reasons stated above. Flurry of Devastation proves that regular kinetic blast does not work with Rapid Shot as you cannot make a full attack action with kinetic blast.
While you are correct by RAW, the kinny is such a weak class overall that I feel that GMs should be lenient about issues like this.
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Thank you, Imbicatus! I was just about to type that very same explanation. If it were not for the specific reference to Rapid Shot working with Flurry of Devastation, then the argument could potentially be made, but I still would not agree with it for my reasons stated above. Flurry of Devastation proves that regular kinetic blast does not work with Rapid Shot as you cannot make a full attack action with kinetic blast.While you are correct by RAW, the kinny is such a weak class overall that I feel that GMs should be lenient about issues like this.
A lot of people claim they're weak and point to some paper math and talk about that hypothetical 'optimal' build and 'optimal' combat where the best DPR build beats kineticists. Well no duh, its the best DPR build out there for a reason. But in actual practice, in an actual campaign where everything is far from 'optimal' the class holds its own quite well.
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A lot of people claim they're weak and point to some paper math and talk about that hypothetical 'optimal' build and 'optimal' combat where the best DPR build beats kineticists.
No; a lot of people (myself included) see actual kinny characters being played at actual tables, and note that almost all of these are either (1) ineffective, or (2) based on misunderstanding the rules.
Such as, you know, the advice right in this thread here to take Rapid Shot for kinblasts. I'm really not surprised that many people misinterpret something about the kinny, considering how convoluted the class's base mechanics are.
A lot of people claim they're weak and point to some paper math and talk about that hypothetical 'optimal' build and 'optimal' combat where the best DPR build beats kineticists.No; a lot of people (myself included) see actual kinny characters being played at actual tables, and note that almost all of these are either (1) ineffective, or (2) based on misunderstanding the rules.
Such as, you know, the advice right in this thread here to take Rapid Shot for kinblasts. I'm really not surprised that many people misinterpret something about the kinny, considering how convoluted the class's base mechanics are.
I've found the opposite in tables I've played at. Those that misinterpreted the rules found the kineticist too weak or too strong or not working right.
And I've seen Lv7 yoon in a scenario and the party be amazed at how much damage she did in a round. And this is coming from people that play APG summoners and slumber witches.
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My biggest issue is, why make a Con based blaster if the class ends up losing all their extra hit points when they use their powers? What a waste, should've just made it a Wis or Int based blaster class.
Burn is a horrible mechanic, instead of costing hp the Kineticist should have a "power pool" of some sort that they can dip into to use or modify their powers.
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Why make a one trick pony class,
It's not. There is a ton of utility in the class that varies based on element.
cannot keep up with monster AC
It can deal with AC just fine. 3/4 BAB + a good dex + elemental overflow is more than enough to hit with a physical blast, and you have the option of touch.
deal with dr?
Earth Blast can bypass all DR except alignment based, and even when you can't, Kinetic Blast is one big hit, it's like having clustered shots for free.
energy resistance?
You have the ability add a physical blast, or a second energy type, or if fire burn away fire resistance. You also have the ability to overcome most immunities.
What was the point of play testing this class?
The class is one of the best balanced classes in the game. It provides consistent damage at a median level, fantastic at will utility, and has a high floor and low ceiling.
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My biggest issue is, why make a Con based blaster if the class ends up losing all their extra hit points when they use their powers? What a waste, should've just made it a Wis or Int based blaster class.
Burn is a horrible mechanic, instead of costing hp the Kineticist should have a "power pool" of some sort that they can dip into to use or modify their powers.
The hit points are still there, they are a buffer between unconsciousness and dying. Also as you gain more burn, your con increases, offsetting the burn cost to get there.
While it looks bad on paper, in play it's not an issue.
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True, but that issue is minor compared to trying to hit a 40 ish ac with a +20 or so to hit or not being able to bypass dr 15/magic with your main damage dealing schtick.
To be fair here, DR/Energy Resistance generally affects kineticist less than other attacks (aside from ranged attack with clustered shots, which is not a feat that should exist), as their attacks only apply DR/ER once unless they're kinetic blading. It's the kind of thing where future products could help work around issues like this, so I don't have a huge problem. Kineticist does need more content to round it out, as the way it is now, it feels like an unfinished class.
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My biggest issue is, why make a Con based blaster if the class ends up losing all their extra hit points when they use their powers? What a waste, should've just made it a Wis or Int based blaster class.
Burn is a horrible mechanic, instead of costing hp the Kineticist should have a "power pool" of some sort that they can dip into to use or modify their powers.
You only ever go deep into your burn when you nova, which is only on those tough encounters like boss encounters. For the normal or average type encounter, gather power will negate any burn for you to deal with your foes. I'm level 8 now and I've only ever gone 1 burn from max burn (at level 5 or 6) once, and that was after a LONG day with many encounters where the caster was running dry on spells as well. The big difference is even when I'm at max burn, I can still be effective in combat and blast. In the morning, after I take my 3 burn for Elemental Overflow I still have more HP than our barb (while out of rage). At the 3 burn start of the day, I can take another 5 throughout the day plus the internal buffer. If you're taking burn in every encounter then you are doing something wrong. I don't and I'm still #1-2 in damage for my party.
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True, but that issue is minor compared to trying to hit a 40 ish ac with a +20 or so to hit or not being able to bypass dr 15/magic with your main damage dealing schtick.
EVERYsimple blast bypasses DR/Magic. Materials or alignment, fine, but this is misinformation.
I would also respectfully disagree that the kineticist has lots of utility. Maybe compared to a Fighter, but not many other classes. You're locked into taking certain powers at certain levels (Infusion at odd lvls, Utility at even) and there really aren't many choices. I would hazard a guess that nearly every kineticist of the same element looks pretty much the same.
Also, all the decent utility powers (like Earth Glide, or flight for every element besides air) become available so late in the game, most campaigns are over by that point.
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I would also respectfully disagree that the kineticist has lots of utility. Maybe compared to a Fighter, but not many other classes. You're locked into taking certain powers at certain levels (Infusion at odd lvls, Utility at even) and there really aren't many choices. I would hazard a guess that nearly every kineticist of the same element looks pretty much the same.
There aren't a huge array of choices, but they certainly add up to more utility than any non-spellcaster, and probably as much as most individual 6 or 4 level spontaneous casters. The fact that multiple characters of the same element get more or less the same utility is pretty much irrelevant in actual play, since basically no party will ever have two Kineticists focusing on the same element.
Also, all the decent utility powers (like Earth Glide, or flight for every element besides air) become available so late in the game, most campaigns are over by that point.
Most campaigns are over by 10th level now?
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I would also respectfully disagree that the kineticist has lots of utility. Maybe compared to a Fighter, but not many other classes. You're locked into taking certain powers at certain levels (Infusion at odd lvls, Utility at even) and there really aren't many choices. I would hazard a guess that nearly every kineticist of the same element looks pretty much the same.
Also, all the decent utility powers (like Earth Glide, or flight for every element besides air) become available so late in the game, most campaigns are over by that point.
Indeed. The kinny is not quite a one-trick pony but it comes close.
Note how most utility talents are the equivalent of spells of lower level? Basically what a kinny can do at level eight, a bard or inquisitor can do at level four. That's problematic. And, many elements don't have a lot of choices, and your second element is four levels behind. There's a pretty good chance that your favorite talents (whatever they are) cannot be combined on a single character.
The damage was never the problem with the kinny. It's not the best damage dealer, but it doesn't have to be. The kinny's many restrictions on everything else are the problem.
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I would also respectfully disagree that the kineticist has lots of utility. Maybe compared to a Fighter, but not many other classes. You're locked into taking certain powers at certain levels (Infusion at odd lvls, Utility at even) and there really aren't many choices. I would hazard a guess that nearly every kineticist of the same element looks pretty much the same.
Also, all the decent utility powers (like Earth Glide, or flight for every element besides air) become available so late in the game, most campaigns are over by that point.
I can partially agree here, as I do agree that it doesn't have 'lots' of utility. It has utility around where T4 would be, which is barb/ranger territory. Not a ton of options, but it does for the most part have all day utility which is nice.
We really need more content as I do agree that talent selection is razor thin in options. Most elements have 2 choices per level at the moment, and that doesn't really lead to a huge amount of creativity with the class. In the guide thread, there was some discussion about hopefully trying to integrate more spell into kinetic utility wild talents, so hopefully that would help give more options, but the base class is painfully limited in 1st party options.
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Indeed. The kinny is not quite a one-trick pony but it comes close.
No more than most characters. Way more than a prepared caster, sure, but those aren't super common.
Note how most utility talents are the equivalent of spells of lower level? Basically what a kinny can do at level eight, a bard or inquisitor can do at level four. That's problematic.
Example? I'm not thinking of anything.
And, many elements don't have a lot of choices, and your second element is four levels behind. There's a pretty good chance that your favorite talents (whatever they are) cannot be combined on a single character.
I dunno. You can get two elements by level 7. That grants a pretty big cross-section of the good talents if that's what you're aiming for.
The damage was never the problem with the kinny. It's not the best damage dealer, but it doesn't have to be. The kinny's many restrictions on everything else are the problem.
Eh. They do fine. Not super amazing as compared to characters really focused on utility, but fine. Certainly better than any non-caster in many ways.
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There aren't a huge array of choices, but they certainly add up to more utility than any non-spellcaster,
I seriously doubt they can match an u-rogue or an investigator in utility. They're clearly far behind any 6-level caster, too. You can possibly compare them to a bloodrager or paladin, and yes they do beat the poor fighter in terms of utility. Then again, so does everything else.
Most campaigns are over by 10th level now?
Well, yes. The vast majority of campaigns are at low level, including but not limited to PFS, and this has always been the case in level-based RPGs. It's easy to forget that sometimes as forums tend to focus on level-20 builds a lot. And yes, that means that a trick that comes online at level 11 is a trick that's effectively unavailable in most campaigns.
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And, many elements don't have a lot of choices, and your second element is four levels behind. There's a pretty good chance that your favorite talents (whatever they are) cannot be combined on a single character.I dunno. You can get two elements by level 7. That grants a pretty big cross-section of the good talents if that's what you're aiming for.
That -4 effective level junk is a hard hit to take though, I don't think it was necessary at all for either the feat or the secondary element. The utility of the class would be so much higher (not T3 high, but higher) if it didn't have that -4 junk.
EDIT: Also I'd say Kineticist could match U-Rogue, but obviously not an investigator, which is clearly a T3 class. Kineticist should be judged against other T4 classes, where it has comparable utility.
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Note how most utility talents are the equivalent of spells of lower level? Basically what a kinny can do at level eight, a bard or inquisitor can do at level four. That's problematic.Example? I'm not thinking of anything.
Spray = Flurry of Snowballs, Toxic Infusion = Cloud of Seasickness, Shape Wood = Woodshape. Basically, pretty much every 4th level talent is the equivalent of a 2nd level spell.
I dunno. You can get two elements by level 7. That grants a pretty big cross-section of the good talents if that's what you're aiming for.
No, because your second element has a -4 level penalty. Oh, and you get one less talent for daring to pick a second element, which further reduces your versatility.
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Well, yes. The vast majority of campaigns are at low level, including but not limited to PFS, and this has always been the case in level-based RPGs. It's easy to forget that sometimes as forums tend to focus on level-20 builds a lot. And yes, that means that a trick that comes online at level 11 is a trick that's effectively unavailable in most campaigns.
I'm not at all sure that's true, APs tend to run to 15th or thereabouts, PFS runs to 11 and has the option to continue onward for a good few more levels. Given the lack of any real metrics that show average campaign final level it's incredibly hard to say and I think somewhat unfair to presume that <10 play is the 'norm'.
That said, obviously relying on an ability that comes at post 10 for a build to work is silly if you're starting at level 1, but that doesn't mean that abilities which come online at 11 are essentially unavailable, that's still a good third of your career if you're playing a Paizo AP, plenty of time to get good use out of it.
Honestly, I tend to see builds for 1-11 or 1-15 vastly more on these forums than 1-20, which tend to be reserved for those 'kill the Tarrasque' threads and such.
And, many elements don't have a lot of choices, and your second element is four levels behind. There's a pretty good chance that your favorite talents (whatever they are) cannot be combined on a single character.I dunno. You can get two elements by level 7. That grants a pretty big cross-section of the good talents if that's what you're aiming for.That -4 effective level junk is a hard hit to take though, I don't think it was necessary at all for either the feat or the secondary element. The utility of the class would be so much higher (not T3 high, but higher) if it didn't have that -4 junk.
EDIT: Also I'd say Kineticist could match U-Rogue, but obviously not an investigator, which is clearly a T3 class. Kineticist should be judged against other T4 classes, where it has comparable utility.
I would argue that an aether/x kineticist is low T3. At will invisibility, X00/X000 lbs mage hand, 'flight', and ranged sleight of hand and disable device are pretty huge.
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I didn't really like T3 personally. the second one was pretty cool, especially with the crazy melty terminator. Good stuff.
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I seriously doubt they can match an u-rogue or an investigator in utility. They're clearly far behind any 6-level caster, too. You can possibly compare them to a bloodrager or paladin, and yes they do beat the poor fighter in terms of utility. Then again, so does everything else.
I count the Investigator (and Alchemist) as a spellcaster when discussing utility. And most other times. Because, y'know, it is in every way except the most technical.
And I'd say that they actually compare fairly well with the Unchained Rogue in utility. One Skill Unlock isn't a huge utility increase, and by the time they have two they're 10th level and the Kineticist has all sorts of stuff.
Well, yes. The vast majority of campaigns are at low level, including but not limited to PFS, and this has always been the case in level-based RPGs. It's easy to forget that sometimes as forums tend to focus on level-20 builds a lot. And yes, that means that a trick that comes online at level 11 is a trick that's effectively unavailable in most campaigns.
Well, the other factor is that at relatively low levels, Kineticist damage is really good. So...damage being better at low levels and utility better at higher ones works.
And IME, 10th is not where games end. It's past the mid-point, but you got to 12th even in PFS, and higher upon occasion. And APs end at 17th or so as a rule.
That -4 effective level junk is a hard hit to take though, I don't think it was necessary at all for either the feat or the secondary element. The utility of the class would be so much higher (not T3 high, but higher) if it didn't have that -4 junk.
It would be more convenient, I'll not deny. You can make some stuff work, though. Especially since the two reductions don't actually stack.
EDIT: Also I'd say Kineticist could match U-Rogue, but obviously not an investigator, which is clearly a T3 class. Kineticist should be judged against other T4 classes, where it has comparable utility.
Yeah...Investigator is a 6-level prepared spellcaster with a solid list on top of winning at all the skills forever. Ihas better utility than anything short of 9-level casters.
And it works on incorporeal creatures too, though only for half damage because while it is magic, it's not ghost touched.
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I count the Investigator (and Alchemist) as a spellcaster when discussing utility. And most other times. Because, y'know, it is in every way except the most technical.
Ok, so when you say the kinny is more versatile than "non-casters", you mean he's better than only a handful of classes in the book. That's probably true but it isn't saying much.
Well, the other factor is that at relatively low levels, Kineticist damage is really good.
It's certainly decent, but "really good" is stretching it. It is well behind, for example, a standard TWF rogue or a raging barbarian.
So...damage being better at low levels and utility better at higher ones works.
Utility better than non-casters, yes. It still has nothing on a bard, hunter, or mesmerist.
But hey, at least it's very flavorful.
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Ok, so when you say the kinny is more versatile than "non-casters", you mean he's better than only a handful of classes in the book. That's probably true but it isn't saying much.
Utility better than non-casters, yes. It still has nothing on a bard, hunter, or mesmerist.
But hey, at least it's very flavorful.
Again, I say compare it to T4 classes (barbarian/range/paladin/etc). If you hold it up to a magus (T3), it's not going to fare as well, but holding a magus up to a wizard (T1) in terms of utility is going to make that magus look like a big pile of poop butts. I don't know why you keep comparing it to classes that are obviously more versatile since it's very obvious that the kineticist is a T4 class and you keep bringing up T3 classes. I also haven't seen many people comparing it to T3 classes in terms of versatility, so you're just kind of bashing it for being a T4, which seems odd.
Deals worse damage than a slayer sure, but I'd say for most elements it's more versatile (fire isn't great for that) than the slayer. Also I hope you meant TWF UC-rogue, as TWF C-Rogue has pretty trash damage due to accuracy.
If you want to complain about burn (which you're within your rights to do), the -4 effective level for expanded element/EWT feat (especially for expanded element, I have to start over with a new element?!), or things like that, I'll totally agree. But versatility wise, it's pretty solidly T4, and that's not really a bad thing.
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Again, I say compare it to T4 classes (barbarian/range/paladin/etc). If you hold it up to a magus (T3), it's not going to fare as well,
Yes, that's basically my point: it's about as versatile as classes that aren't known for their versatility. That's certainly not a bad thing, but neither is it impressive or amazing (especially considering how many new T3 classes Paizo has made).
I also haven't seen many people comparing it to T3 classes in terms of versatility,
Just look in this thread right here, where people misestimate it at "fantastic at will utility" or "as much [utility] as most 6 level casters". The point is that at first glance the kinny seems to have a lot of versatility, but if you read through its rules (which to be fair are rather convoluted) then it turns out that there are way more restrictions there than there should be.
If you want to complain about burn (which you're within your rights to do), the -4 effective level for expanded element/EWT feat (especially for expanded element, I have to start over with a new element?!), or things like that, I'll totally agree.
Yep. Well, maybe we'll get an unchained kinny in a couple years.
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Ok, so when you say the kinny is more versatile than "non-casters", you mean he's better than only a handful of classes in the book. That's probably true but it isn't saying much.
Uh...what I said was better than non-casters and on par with 4 level casters.
They're not the highest utility class in the game by any means, but they're pretty decent. Which was my whole point.
It's certainly decent, but "really good" is stretching it. It is well behind, for example, a standard TWF rogue or a raging barbarian.
At 3rd-7th, they do pretty close for the most part. And can have rider effects on their attacks to boot.
Utility better than non-casters, yes. It still has nothing on a bard, hunter, or mesmerist.
But hey, at least it's very flavorful.
Sure. I don't disagree. But nobody was claiming they were better at utility than, say, a Bard. That'd be silly. And a bit odd. They were saying they had better utility than the classes people kept bringing up as having better DPR. Which they do. And was rather the point.
Kineticist isn't really a class for someone who'd otherwise be playing a caster. It's for someone who'd otherwise be playing a martial character (which, for the record, is more than 1/3 of the classes in the game counting 4-level casters other than the Medium). And them they have a bit less damage and a bit more utility than.
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Regarding Rapid Shot and the simple blasts by book rules I have seen nothing that says it can't be combined. The blasts are like any range attack requiring a standard action. Rapid Shot is a full attack action. Nothing says in the rules you can't make a full attack with the blasts. It seems people are ignoring the fact at higher levels a Kineticist gets multiple blasts for higher BAB. Rapid Shot is designed for lower level ranged specialists to get a second attack. By the rules I see nothing in the feat or class that says a Kineticist cannot use the feat with his blasts.
Kinetic Blasts can't be used to full attack because a kinetic blast is an ability that requires a standard action to use, rather than a weapon that can be used to take the attack action which can be used as either a standard or full round action. Rapid shot can't be used with a kinetic blast for this reason. Certain abilities like Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist can be used to take the attack action however.
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I'd like to know why you seem to feel in your opinion the Kineticist is a weak class. Have played one at mid level and have been studying it lately and don't see how you think this.
The issue of using Rapid Shot with the Simple Blast seems incorrect. Rapid Shot by every definition and description I have read should work together since nothing I have seen suggests otherwise.
The only issue I have had with the class is the skills being rather limited and rather odd. It stacks well with other classes as far as power and abilities.
Rapid shot requires a "full attack with a ranged weapon" to use. The standard kinetic blast is not an attack action but an activated SLA that has an attack roll. Just like a ray spell isn't an attack but a spell with an attack roll to hit. You can see the difference in the kinetic blade infusion where it says that it causes the kinetic blast to be used as part of an attack action.
The only way to get rapid shot to work is, as stated earlier, is to use it with flurry of devastation.
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The issue of using Rapid Shot with the Simple Blast seems incorrect. Rapid Shot by every definition and description I have read should work together since nothing I have seen suggests otherwise.
Using the kinetic blast is not an attack action. It's defined as a spell-like ability, and thus takes a standard action to use and then it grants a free attack roll, like casting a ranged touch spell.