I have somewhat of a question regarding the VMC options - as I interpret it, the cavalier VMC does not preclude you from getting extra challenge as a feat. Would that make it better in the mid levels?
Ditto on the Sorcerer VMC. Eldritch heritage starts requiring a fair bit of charisma later on, and unless the character is a half-elf or a human the skill focus is a pain. The VMC is quite solid if you want the abilities of a certain bloodline.
I have somewhat of a question regarding the VMC options - as I interpret it, the cavalier VMC does not preclude you from getting extra challenge as a feat. Would that make it better in the mid levels?
If such a feat existed, sure.
There is a feat for extra challenges, yeah.
I was looking quite a bit for the variant familiars for the Eldritch Guardian. Mauler is of course the best combat option, but the emissary and the sage are both quite interesting - the emissary can give useful bonuses and boost bravery, while the sage is a pocket skill monkey. The figment strikes me as a bit too fragile, although the evolutions are interesting. The rest are probably better for other classes.
Might I just say, I really love the idea of the forum community pooling its knowledge together for this guide. I know community feedback is normally sought for a guide, but this feels like a forum brain drain to make making a fighter a lot less daunting, especially with the advent of all the martial goodies in the past few years.
That aside, I want to give a shout out to the Animal Ally feat. It's seems like a great investment for a Dragoon or Roughrider. You'd also want boon companion, and while that is 3 feats, it helps those archetypes get a mount that can actually survive combat. Besides, a fighter is hardly ever feat starved.
A note on Leaping Lance... yeah, that one's mainly for the Final Fantasy fans out there. It is really stupid, but also... really hype. XD
the emissary can give useful bonuses and boost bravery
Sadly Eldritch Guardians trade away Bravery
the emissary can give useful bonuses and boost braverySadly Eldritch Guardians trade away Bravery
Ah, I misquoted the buff. There is a master feat for the emissary that functions like bravery, but gives you a morale bonus to saves vs fear if the familiar is near you. It stacks with steel will. That is on top of the emissary having Guidance at will.
A couple of things I noticed:
Under Steel Will for the Eldritch Guardian: Isn't the Steel Will ability a straight up boost to Bravery? Bravery applies to fear saves, but Steel Will applies to fear AND mind-affecting saves. And therefore should be coloured the bluest of blue and the description re-written to reflect this.
Under Martial Flexibility for the Martial Master: The Martial Master loses all forms of Weapon Training and therefore cannot take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat. Your description here seems to imply they still can.
This is a great resource BTW. The good ol' Fighter has got lots of new goodies recently, but the old guides had not been updated for a while.
A couple of things I noticed:
Under Steel Will for the Eldritch Guardian: Isn't the Steel Will ability a straight up boost to Bravery? Bravery applies to fear saves, but Steel Will applies to fear AND mind-affecting saves. And therefore should be coloured the bluest of blue and the description re-written to reflect this.
Well, previously it would have been.
Now AWT applies bravery to all will saves, including annoying things like curses. So it is still very competitive, but there are options now.
@Mythraine: The advanced weapon training option "Armed Bravery" gives you your Bravery bonus to all will saves and doubles the bonus against fear. You can pick this up via the Advance Weapon Training feat (confusing, I know) at level 5. Because of this fact I've lowered the rating on most abilities that replace Bravery.
As for the Marial Flexibility section, you are correct. I was misreading the Martial Focus feat.
Ah cool. Great.
{. . .}
As for the Marial Flexibility section, you are correct. I was misreading the Martial Focus feat.
Which, by the way, doesn't seem to be online anywhere, except in a bug report on www.d20pfsrd.com (dated 2 days ago). (And Archives of Nethys appears to be still in stasis.)
An idea I've been toying with for Half Orcs using the Deathless XXX feat chain ...
Half Orcs can take the Orc FCB which increase the level at which you die by 2 HP each time it is taken. If taken every level, this amount stacks up quickly.
Now add in/work towards the Deathless XXX feat chain. You're effectively doubling the extra HP you get from FCB AND getting all the bonuses from the Deathless XXX feats.
E.g. Consider a half orc fighter with starting 16 CON @ level 10 with the Deathless Master feat and all prerequisites. She has gained 20 buffer HP and only dies at -36 HP. While in this buffer zone, she no longer takes any HP loss due to action, can take a full round attack and gets +2 to hit and +2 to damage.
I'm not saying this is an uber build (I really don't get the Ironhide feat prerequisite) and it IS feat intensive. BUT as the Deathless XXX feat chain is only for orcs and half orcs anyway, it CAN be made to work. So maybe an orange to green rating?
Now AWT applies bravery to all will saves, including annoying things like curses. So it is still very competitive, but there are options now.
I count it as pretty much saving you an AWT pick, unless the ruling states that bravery and armed bravery stack for a double bonus vs fear effects. If they do not, well, steel will is pretty much the same and you can just pick something else from AWT. I think there are quite a few good options :) .
@The Shaman: The Extra Challenges feat is third party and clearly outside of Paizo's normal design space (in terms of the kind of feats they want to add to the game). Yes, if your GM allows for that feat then the Cavalier VMC is much better but my guide assumes Paizo-only material.
Right, my bad for overlooking this part. Pity.
Now AWT applies bravery to all will saves, including annoying things like curses. So it is still very competitive, but there are options now.I count it as pretty much saving you an AWT pick, unless the ruling states that bravery and armed bravery stack for a double bonus vs fear effects. If they do not, well, steel will is pretty much the same and you can just pick something else from AWT. I think there are quite a few good options :) .
While mind-effecting affects are the most common of will saves, they aren't the only thing. You also have things like Bestow Curse and Bestow Curse greater
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is just a random aside for a sort of niche build that I cannot get out of my head. So, Spear Dancing Style is a pretty fun feat. The weapon I talk about it most with is a Nodachi, but it can work with, obviously, a spear, Trident, Ranseur, Naginata, Baradiche, Guisarme, a whole host a cool weapons with a great variety of damage dice and crit profiles, that is paired with the 1d6 of a light mace. A lot of choices get 2d4, 1d8, 1d10 or even 1d12 damage dice with that 1d6, and often the more sensible TWF builds suffer from smaller damage dice (I know AWT can help fix this, but that's one more AWT that can be used for say Armed Bravery instead).
Spear Dancing Spiral is where things get fun. You can use dex to hit with your favored weapon, even when two-handing it for the odd move+attack or (Since there are a lot of reach weapons for this style) AoOs. More accuracy and less MAD (This feat and the inevitable Trained Grace make Str less of a huge requirement) are always good. But the kicker is that your chosen weapon counts as a quarterstaff for related feats. This means nothing for most quarterstaff feats since Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) is still needed, but it does allow the use of Perfect Strike, which is why I like the Nodachi as much as I do. Lvl8 you get Imp. Crit. and Lvl9 You get Perfect Strike (Level 9 Feat) and Abundant Tactics (Weapon Training 2 > AWT). You can now roll twice on several 15-20 crit threat range (For a Nodachi) attacks a day. Makes your standard actions very deadly.
Lastly, Spear Dancing Reach. Ooh, such a sweet feat. It takes a swift action, but once in your style, and while full-round attacking, that doesn't matter too much for a fighter (Perhaps save for Arcane Strike, but this build is already pretty feat heavy, but an argument can be made for using it when on the move or adjacent to a BBEG). This can effectively give you 10ft reach with TWF. If you grab lunge, that 15ft. If you 5 foot step, that's 20 feet within which you can go nuts. Or you can get creative. Say there's a mook adjacent and something substantial just out of reach. Bash the mook and hit the Big Bad Boss with the big bad business end of your weapon. Maybe not super effective, but it still offers some level of versatility, and a whole lotta cool.
Also, shoutouts to Spear Dancer. Is it good? Eh, probably not, but it's a free debuff you will be getting a lot if you go for super reach full-rounds and your chosen weapon has (good) reach. It's mostly for flavor lol.
Also, combat reflexes is, well, obvious. Dex-focused+reach=Good, sustained damage. However, Dex-focused+reach+Spear Dancer=Maximum Dazzle!!
stuff
Wow. That's pretty much Oberyn Martel and I love it.
While mind-effecting affects are the most common of will saves, they aren't the only thing. You also have things like Bestow Curse and Bestow Curse greater
Sure, but these are by far the minority, so for me the eldritch guardian essentially gets the equivalent of an AWT for free.
By the way, was it ever confirmed if the totem spear from CoCT falls in the spears category for weapon training? I would think so, but I cannot find it in the list.
|
Whoa, haven't commented on the paizo thread.
Gotta say, your guide is looking pretty solid, I know I like reading over good guides to put me back in the mood to update mine, which I'll probably get on later. A few notes here:
-I personally think you could do to add the purple rating to your guide since I'm seeing a pretty large amount of blue, and I think there's some options that need to stand out slightly more than the rest of them.
-I'd probably try to add a few 'combos' to the archetype section (it's something I should be doing too, ugh), since there's quite a few combinations that are pretty solid.
-Also maybe consider putting an asterisk * next to the archetypes that lose weapon training, just so people know that going into them. It's not really to change the rating, more just so people who want to take advantage of the new advanced weapon training can be aware that these archetypes don't exactly jive with it.
-Two things on unbreakable; the first is that the ability to pick up both endurance and diehard is actually really nice if you're trying to take advantage of that style (with things like deathless zealot and such), as well as a very nice dip for that reason. Second is I wonder why you put it as red when no class features in it are red.
With quick recovery, you can actually combine the stalwart/improved stalwart feats with bolstered resistance (which fatigues you upon use) to more easily refresh yourself, which is nice for going with a more tanky build.
-I'd probably consider Barbarian VMC green myself, as it doesn't lock you into viking and the rage powers are generally better than most things you'll get through the feats you're losing. The rage actually comes online VERY quickly too, and even with the reduced rounds, it'll work well enough in most combats.
-As a general suggestion, I think for the feats section, it'd be nice to list feats near the prerequisites for them to make it easier for reference.
-An intimidate build can live off of cornugon smash, why only green here? Combos beautifully with hurtful.
-While risky, I think deathless initiate is at least orange. It's a gamble here as if you're standing, you're going to stay a target. But if you're standing, you can also still full round whatever was trying to kill you, and being unconscious and bleeding out generally isn't the best way to contribute in a fight.
-----------------------------
Honestly you've got a lot ahead of you, as with this guide you're almost reviewing every conceivable weapon style. It's an impressive amount you've done already and it's looking very nice, I'm looking forward to seeing more of this guide get finished. Feel free to hit me up if you need anything, I'm going to slowly get back to getting on my warpriest guide as soon as I finish up with some stuff.
|
-Two things on unbreakable; the first is that the ability to pick up both endurance and diehard is actually really nice if you're trying to take advantage of that style (with things like deathless zealot and such), as well as a very nice dip for that reason. Second is I wonder why you put it as red when no class features in it are red.
On great thing about unbreakable is it is an incredible dip to set up a tanky character. Fast Healer + Fey Foundling give you a huge boost on healing, and Fast Healer requires both endurance and diehard. Not to mention the ability to add significant DR with Stalwart/Improved Stalwart. It works best as a dip for a paladin or other self-healing class, but it is higher than red for a pure fighter, just because it is very, very tanky.
stuffWow. That's pretty much Oberyn Martel and I love it.
Just remember: Always confirm your kills. Always.
Technically, you can stack these but you probably shouldn't as the rules are very unclear on how that would actually work.
You can not stack multiple kinds of rage.At best you would get more rounds of rage.
The way I see it, the Viking archetype wins out due to having more rounds of Rage as well as quicker and easier access to Rage Powers.
You seem to completly ignore what you are giving up. VMC costs you 1/4th of your feats. You can still take any archetype, you still get weapon training, you can still take advanced weapon training. You can stack weapon training, mutagen and rage for some serious bonus to accuracy and damage if you want.
Viking on the other hand makes you loose nearly every class feature. You don't compare Viking to a Fighter, you compare it to a full Barbarian. If you want pounce (and maybe Elemental Blood for flight), the ability to take combat feats instead of rage powers is nearly useless. In exchange to all the class features a Barbarian gets (including those from archetypes *cough* Invulnerable Rager *cough*), you get a bonus feat and a swift action intimidate (at lvl10, and Cornugon Smash exists). You really think the fighter only feats are worth that?The question is not which rage is stronger, but which one has the better cost-benefit ratio! On that front, viking is orange at best, while VMC Barb is probably blue.
Are you going to include any of the Fighter archetypes in the Advanced Race Guide?
I wonder, is Quick Draw now a significant feat for a fighter? At least those with a lot of AWT, since you want Armed bravery ASAP. For instance, Quick Draw + Trained Initiative would be massive for a Weapon Master, since at this point, being a Weapon Master almost mandates all those juicy AWT as feats. They can take 11 of them!! Now that's a chosen weapon right thur.
And this is just my mind wandering, but I wonder if the Endurance feat will be to Advanced Armor Training what Quick Draw is to AWT. Never leave your armor!
Speaking of Armor Master's Handbook, the Armor Master (If Advanced Armor Training is a thing and Armor Master is a parallel to Wrapon Master) may just need a boost in rating come April. Perhaps Green. Perhaps even... Blue? Nah, no one likes defense like me lol.
A man can dream.
This is just a random aside for a sort of niche build that I cannot get out of my head. So, Spear Dancing Style is a pretty fun feat. The weapon I talk about it most with is a Nodachi, but it can work with, obviously, a spear, Trident, Ranseur, Naginata, Baradiche, Guisarme, a whole host a cool weapons with a great variety of damage dice and crit profiles, that is paired with the 1d6 of a light mace. A lot of choices get 2d4, 1d8, 1d10 or even 1d12 damage dice with that 1d6, and often the more sensible TWF builds suffer from smaller damage dice (I know AWT can help fix this, but that's one more AWT that can be used for say Armed Bravery instead).
Spear Dancing Spiral is where things get fun. You can use dex to hit with your favored weapon, even when two-handing it for the odd move+attack or (Since there are a lot of reach weapons for this style) AoOs. More accuracy and less MAD (This feat and the inevitable Trained Grace make Str less of a huge requirement) are always good. But the kicker is that your chosen weapon counts as a quarterstaff for related feats. This means nothing for most quarterstaff feats since Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) is still needed, but it does allow the use of Perfect Strike, which is why I like the Nodachi as much as I do. Lvl8 you get Imp. Crit. and Lvl9 You get Perfect Strike (Level 9 Feat) and Abundant Tactics (Weapon Training 2 > AWT). You can now roll twice on several 15-20 crit threat range (For a Nodachi) attacks a day. Makes your standard actions very deadly.
Lastly, Spear Dancing Reach. Ooh, such a sweet feat. It takes a swift action, but once in your style, and while full-round attacking, that doesn't matter too much for a fighter (Perhaps save for...
That is an interesting build. Spear weapon groups get overlooked too much.
I wonder, is Quick Draw now a significant feat for a fighter? At least those with a lot of AWT, since you want Armed bravery ASAP. For instance, Quick Draw + Trained Initiative would be massive for a Weapon Master, since at this point, being a Weapon Master almost mandates all those juicy AWT as feats. They can take 11 of them!! Now that's a chosen weapon right thur.
And this is just my mind wandering, but I wonder if the Endurance feat will be to Advanced Armor Training what Quick Draw is to AWT. Never leave your armor!
Speaking of Armor Master's Handbook, the Armor Master (If Advanced Armor Training is a thing and Armor Master is a parallel to Wrapon Master) may just need a boost in rating come April. Perhaps Green. Perhaps even... Blue? Nah, no one likes defense like me lol.
A man can dream.
Well, a lot of weapons don't need drawing. Polearms and gauntlets, basically. One is always carried, one is always worn. So little need to worry about getting your weapon out.
Interesting, since both of those have builds that can full attack a 45' wide circle- reach weapon plus lunge, close weapons with out slug with is lunge + extra 5' step. Close weapons are also far more useful to fighters now, since they can grab the warpriest's sacred weapon dice. So some very strong styles for fighter don't need to ever really 'draw' their weapon.
I wonder, is Quick Draw now a significant feat for a fighter? At least those with a lot of AWT, since you want Armed bravery ASAP. For instance, Quick Draw + Trained Initiative would be massive for a Weapon Master, since at this point, being a Weapon Master almost mandates all those juicy AWT as feats. They can take 11 of them!! Now that's a chosen weapon right thur.
I actually like quick draw as I still think switch hitting (and a second weapon training in ranged weapons, unless your first category covers both - like spears) is a good option for a fighter. However, I have yet to play a fighter who gets to the mid levels.
Aside from the racial archetipes, in the guide ar missing the Pack Mule from Black Markets and oddly enough the Relic Master as it's from the Weapon Master Handbook along with a lot of stuff already rated by the guide
Can you confirm that a Viking will never get Greater rage? Because it seems to me that Barb level -3 is explicitly there for the purpose of getting the automatic rage advances.
Otherwise, giving up weapon training for a static +4 Stat bonus simply isn't worth it...although the always increasing shield AC IS better then Armor Training, and rage Powers are easily equal to AWT effects.
==Aelryinth
Can you confirm that a Viking will never get Greater rage? Because it seems to me that Barb level -3 is explicitly there for the purpose of getting the automatic rage advances.
Otherwise, giving up weapon training for a static +4 Stat bonus simply isn't worth it...although the always increasing shield AC IS better then Armor Training, and rage Powers are easily equal to AWT effects.
==Aelryinth
Greater rage isn't automatic rage advances, it's an ability of the barb. The only thing barb levels are for are rage powers.
Just to comment about the Viking archetype it is not only valid on its own but it is an excellent pathway to get to the Ulfen Guard PrC. The Ulfen Guard PrC is one of the few really nice prestige classes out there. Not sure if the guide takes prestige classes into account but the Viking deserves something just for its ability to get a player easily into Ulfen Guard.
|
|
Just to comment about the Viking archetype it is not only valid on its own but it is an excellent pathway to get to the Ulfen Guard PrC. The Ulfen Guard PrC is one of the few really nice prestige classes out there. Not sure if the guide takes prestige classes into account but the Viking deserves something just for its ability to get a player easily into Ulfen Guard.
Viking really adds very little to an ulfen guard. Ulfen Guard is incredibly easy to enter. All you need is BAB +5, some skills, and to be of Ulfen descent.
You don't need rage to enter the class, and even if you did, barbarian is a better entry than viking.
Just to comment about the Viking archetype it is not only valid on its own but it is an excellent pathway to get to the Ulfen Guard PrC. The Ulfen Guard PrC is one of the few really nice prestige classes out there. Not sure if the guide takes prestige classes into account but the Viking deserves something just for its ability to get a player easily into Ulfen Guard.Viking really adds very little to an ulfen guard. Ulfen Guard is incredibly easy to enter. All you need is BAB +5, some skills, and to be of Ulfen descent.
You don't need rage to enter the class, and even if you did, barbarian is a better entry than viking.
I disagree. Ulfen Guard is designed to be like the real world Varangian Guard from the Byzatine Empire. It is a perfect role for the shield wearing bodyguard that protects a noble or in gaming terms another person in your party. Viking archetype gives you rage plus a shield AC bonus. That is better than Barbarian if you want that role. And frankly there's no other reason to be Ulfen Guard than to be that role which the PrC fulfills very well.
And I have to add, for role play reasons, having a Viking archetype with Ulfen background flows seamlessly into the Taldor Emperor having the Ulfen Guard around.
As you say though, the Rage Powers are as good as AWT effects, especially if you use Unchained Barbarian. You're basically trading away some damage and attack bonuses for additional bonuses on Will saves and the chance to reach into class features not normally granted to you.
Rage powers are better than AWT. You know who also has rage powers? Barbarian!
Can you please stop comparing Viking and VMC Barbarian? If you want your guide to be objective, you have to compare Viking to Barbarian and VMC Barb to feats. You look at VMC Barb and see it as some sort of "Viking light" (or "Barbarian light"). Instead you should see it as "stacking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Iron Will".This is why I'm not fond of the Barbarian VMC, it really only grants you some extra damage and you already had plenty of that.
When you dislike it for only granting damage, why do you rate some of the other VMC options so high? What's makes VMC Rogue better?
VMC Barb might not be super awesome at level 15, but it's pretty much the only VMC that's good at low levels.
VMC Barbarian is indeed good at low levels, but it isn't the only one. VMC Cleric is good at low levels (but then chokes starting at level 7); VMC Rogue is situational but could be a lifesaver; VMC Sorcerer can be good at low levels with the right Bloodline (although the severe delay I. Getting later powers hurts, but but by definition that is at later levels); VMC Wizard definitely has awesome options; VMC Inquisition is not terrible at low levels; VMC Magus is good at low levels (although the unusable Spellstrike at 11th level hurts later); VMC Oracle can get you something good withe right choices at 3rd or even 1st level. The VMC choices that I left out are just plain bad for a Fighter and usually just plain bad for anybody.
I'm trying to make a build where my familiar can just hang out next to me (or in my pocket) and use Extend the Bulwark every round to boost my AC.
If you are wearing medium or heavy armor and are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, as a free action, you may give your ally a circumstance bonus to her AC equal to half the armor bonus provided by your armor. This bonus lasts for 1 round. During this round, you gain no bonus to your AC from your armor.
Now, the questions--can a tiny familiar wear +1 full plate? I thought I read somewhere that tiny-sized armor is only half the armor bonus (which I don't understand, but whatever). Does huge armor get double the bonus?
This would possibly be for PFS, so could I get some +1 full plate for a hedgehog sitting in my pocket? I know it's a ridiculous premise, but I'm looking at RAW here.
Here's another possible hiccup:
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
I'm wondering if a GM might preclude them from using it.
There is a note in the feats list that Defensive weapon training works well with picking natural attacks. Sadly, as per the SRD, the feat specifically does not allow you to pick this category.
Javaed, do are you planning an update to account for the Armour Master's Handbook?