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Gonna be playing in a 1st level game for the first time in a while, and I intend on making or at least roughing out, 4(ish) different characters for my group and gonna let the DM pick one, then flesh it out.
I don't really expect this game to last to particularly high level - I doubt we'll hit much more than 10-12.
I do have an idea of what the other players are building:
1 - human bloodrager (I expect abyssal claw machine)
2 - human monk of the 4 winds
3 - human cleric (gonna assume that this will be a generic healer/buffer)
While I have a few thoughts of my own, as the title states - I'm just fishing for ideas.
I expect the bloodrager to be mechanically sound, but not high end optimized.
I expect the cleric will be able to cure and buff, not optimized at all.
I expect the monk to take up a 5' square, the player has a history of builds that only function when the stars are right.
Thanks in advance.
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Gonna be playing in a 1st level game for the first time in a while, and I intend on making or at least roughing out, 4(ish) different characters for my group and gonna let the DM pick one, then flesh it out.
I don't really expect this game to last to particularly high level - I doubt we'll hit much more than 10-12.
I do have an idea of what the other players are building:
1 - human bloodrager (I expect abyssal claw machine)
2 - human monk of the 4 winds
3 - human cleric (gonna assume that this will be a generic healer/buffer)While I have a few thoughts of my own, as the title states - I'm just fishing for ideas.
I expect the bloodrager to be mechanically sound, but not high end optimized.
I expect the cleric will be able to cure and buff, not optimized at all.
I expect the monk to take up a 5' square, the player has a history of builds that only function when the stars are right.Thanks in advance.
I recommend an arcane caster who can control a battlefield and also Debuff enemies so "Mr. Works every one and a while" Monk can perform more constantly. You have no Paladin so I will pitch a Necromancer Wizard for good. A guy who turns undead on the DM and can massively debuff enemies with Necromancy spells (Many of which have an effect regardless if they save against it.) Any wizard would work...I just personally love necromancers as it is one of the strongest schools of magic next to conjuration.
Other options are:
Summoner, Sorcerer, Bomb Alchemist, or Arcanist
Convince the cleric to mostly do battlefield control summons and debuffs and only healing in combat for an emergency.
The you go with a bard, and take the support thing. Mostly inspire courage of course, but eventually moving into haste and things like that. Take some emergency spells like glitterdust for invisible foes etc and have a secondary role as a striker and your party should be good to go.
Alternatively, if you don't think the cleric player can handle the battlefield control role (and it is probably the most difficult) convince him to go evangelist so he can be a focused support character and you take over battlefield control. I prefer wizard or witch for that, but there are a lot of possibilities.
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I just wanted to share that the thread title inspired me to create a whip focused character whose weapon is flavored as a fishing rod. Just an old man who wants to fish gets dragged along to save the world.
My fellows are hard headed - I'm not going to convince them of going any route before the game, once it starts, (except for the monk player who pre-plans his entire fragile builds with no wiggle room) I will be able to convince them of moving in certain directions.
The cleric won't be convinced to do something like battlefield control summoning as he is paperwork adverse, I don't think he'll want to be combing through books for summonings.
Make a witch. Control and debuff with hexes, use spells for utility.
Since the Monk likes to plan in advance maybe you could find out what his plan is and partner with him somehow. If you'll be playing mostly at lower levels stuff like Trip might be pretty effective for helping out in melee.
It doesn't sound like the party will be too optimized. Depending on how hard the DM is likely to make things that might mean you can goof off a little or will really need to pick up some slack.
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As others have said, you've got two front liners and a healer/buffer, so the obvious would be to add a controller/debuffer.
And the most obvious choice to fill both of those roles at once would be a dedicated arcane caster, such as the necromancer and witch recommended above. If you're really worried about the rest of the party being ineffective, I'd stick with conjuration instead of necromancy as a wizard, since that's probably the best for battlefield control, but there are lots of ways to go there.
But besides arcane casters, don't rule out other classes that can fill these roles.
For instance, a casting focused druid with lots of control spells could be great for this, and has a companion animal to help with tanking if the monk and bloodrager aren't well built enough to get it done.
Or you could even go with another melee type, just focused on control and debuffing using reach weapons and combat maneuvers.
You could even go for a bard to add even more buffing on top of the cleric, hoping to make the monk and bloodrager truly effective that way. Bards get whip proficiency, so you could use the reach on that to trip things for some battlefield control. Maybe multi-class for bonus feats and stuff if you want to do the whip thing.
For the most part I agree with the gallery, if you're going to suggest four class options to the GM I would go with.
- A bard (probably an archer; you can buff as well as handle skills and talking)
- A druid (just a strong, versatile option)
- A witch (you can provide arcane support without making your less-optimized melee friends feel useless)
- An Alchemist/Investigator (skills, and arcane support that won't steal the spotlight.)
Bonus class that no one has mentioned yet, I must say I do really like the Occultist.
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Dwarf unbreakable fighter, going into druid with the feat that boosts wildshape, cave domain for tremorsense instead of animal companion. Life as a huge earth elemental rocks. :-)
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Nice pun, Sissyl. I think you should ask the GM about the setting before you meddle around with necromancy(you can't go to civilized places after). That being said, wizard sounds right. Someone has to make the skill checks. If the monk ain't doin his job, use acadamae graduate to summon stuff as a standard action to do it.
I'd been sort of trying to avoid playing the wizard as I have played lots of them over the years, but looking at my team, I tend to agree, control/utility is probably what they need.
Skills are also kind of an issue.
This leads to...
- Witch
- Archer, Bard or Inquisitor
- Druid summoner
- Synthesist Summoner using reach weapon tricks
...concerns
1. Kinda would like a Con caster Scarred Witchdoctor 'cuz it sounded fun - then I see it's been errataed - sheesh, can't tell us how to use Forcecage or Battlmind Link, but Scarred Witchdocter needs fixin' rite nao!
2. probably exactly what the party needs, but I'm not inspired
3. The DM plays a druid in MY game and I don't wanna give him any ideas!
4. I'd have to keep the cheese level down
I'll think about it and post 'em, the game isn't starting for a bit so I'm not in a huge hurry.
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I'd been sort of trying to avoid playing the wizard as I have played lots of them over the years, but looking at my team, I tend to agree, control/utility is probably what they need.
Skills are also kind of an issue.
This leads to...
- Witch
- Archer, Bard or Inquisitor
- Druid summoner
- Synthesist Summoner using reach weapon tricks...concerns
1. Kinda would like a Con caster Scarred Witchdoctor 'cuz it sounded fun - then I see it's been errataed - sheesh, can't tell us how to use Forcecage or Battlmind Link, but Scarred Witchdocter needs fixin' rite nao!
2. probably exactly what the party needs, but I'm not inspired
3. The DM plays a druid in MY game and I don't wanna give him any ideas!
4. I'd have to keep the cheese level down
I'll think about it and post 'em, the game isn't starting for a bit so I'm not in a huge hurry.
Skills an issue? What you mean? Int casters get 2+Int which is typically 7 skills (8 if human....9 if human and you FCB the skill).
You can take most the ID skills, Spell craft, Lingusitics.
The other party members should have perception, stealth and a myrid of other skills.
What skills are you in particular lacking? for the love of god dont say disable device/trapfinding....there are MORE ways to disable traps as a wizard than as a rogue.
I think the Witch is your best option out of the classes you mentioned. Since the DC for their spells/Hexes actually stay relivent.
4. What do you consider cheese? I know people that think a properly built character is cheesy. I am trying to get a fair gauging on you. To me Cheesy is when you have an unstoppable character that a DM would need to basically fiat to stop you. Your so overwhelming (not just damage wise) that you no longer need the rest of the party and you have killed both plot and fun for everyone else playing. Just having a well built character is far from cheesy but just good play.
I'm in no way advocating a character that Creates its own Demi-plane with no time effective on it. Living there fully buffed and Plane Shifting into combat fully buffed and full spell list ready to tear apart anything in the PCs way.
Skills being an issue for the group NOT COUNTING whatever I build.
Sure, a basic witch with a high int is gonna have skill points to burn.
Traps are for hurting meat shields and being fixed by out of combat cures.
I don't mind playing a rogue, but it's not happening - we already have a monk who, if history is any indicator, will have a build that does 25% of what anyone else does until 9th level, then his power DOUBLES!
Oh, and the numbers next to the comments relate to the classes listed in order...
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I still say whip wielding bard, instead of just archer. Go human for the bonus feat, and you can have Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display at level 1, then add whip feats after that, to threaten and deal some damage eventually. You'll be a skill monkey, buffer, debuffer, and some battlefield control with whip tripping.
The best part is you're not doing much damage, so you're still letting the rest of the party shine. You're just enabling them.
But yes, pure arcane caster (witch or wizard) is still the most obvious choice.
I think my whole plan will be to present 3 character concepts with rough build ideas and backgrounds, and give him at least a chance to comment and indicate which would fit best in the game.
Witch is indeed gonna make the cut of the three - I've never played one.
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Actually, if going Arcane Trickster, take one level of either Brawler (Snakebite Striker) or Rogue (I'd go Rogue for better skills and Trapfinding, but Brawler for HP and BAB is valid). Then go straight Wizard and take the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat and you can Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X. That's a very solid skill build, and much better than anything that gives up 3 Caster Levels.
Elf witch archer?
It seems you are missing ranged, skills, and arcane spells.
A witch arcane trickster? I've seen it in play, and it's very versatile.
Some kind of oracle? You don't have to focus on healing, since you have a cleric already. Maybe a shaman? I hear they're VERY versatile, and their spell list is different than the clerics, can use hexes kinda-sorta like a witch, and are less squishy than 9 level arcanes.
First rough ideas, opinions, comments, rude remarks?
Human Cartomancer Witch
Str 7
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats
Human Extra Hex: Cackle
Point Blank Shot
Hex
Evil Eye
Patron
Wisdom
Spells Known
Ear-piercing Scream
CLW
Elf Arcane Duelist Bard
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 15
Feat
Point Blank Shot
Dwarf Inquisitor
Str 13
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 8
Feat
Imp. Init
Travel Domain
Spells Known
Ear-piercing Scream
CLW
With the Animal domain your Inquisitor could ride around on a pig or maybe a Roc (probably easier if you're Small)
We've got an Arcane Duelist in one game, and her lack of Bardic Knowledge has been pretty conspicuous. Free Arcane Strike seems nice, but Bards also have a lot of other stuff they can potentially do with Swift and Immediate actions. The AD could be great for a sword and board build since it allows you to cast with your bonded weapon in hand, but for an archer that wouldn't be as exciting.
I'd consider the Dirge Bard archetype and possibly the Sound Striker. The former gives you access to some necromantic spells, allows you to use mind-affecting spells on undead (which can be pretty significant), and makes you really good at intimidating enemies. The latter gives you a "Weird Words" ranged touch attack which is a little better than a sonic version of Scorching Ray (see Ultimate Magic FAQ)
Yeah trying to avoid much pet usage - thus the Cartomancer, Travel Domain was a bit of a placeholder - it's not bad especially for a dwarf.
I don't envision Bardic Know being a conspicuous loss in this campaign - and I've already played a Dirge Bard - at least by style anyway. Sound Striker does look interesting.
I'd like to throw in a caster Druid - one where I dont really care about wildshape - closest think I can find is Wildfire Druid, sort of give that WoW Druid of the Flame feel..
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I'd like to throw in a caster Druid - one where I dont really care about wildshape - closest think I can find is Wildfire Druid, sort of give that WoW Druid of the Flame feel..
Wild-shape is a good majority of the Druids Utility.
Wizards get fly for 1 min/level. A druid Gets the ability to turn into a flying creature for 1 hour/level. He can Also turn into small elementals and roam/scout. Lots of Utility traded away to get a "World of Warcraft" feeling.
Its most likely off the table anyway as a 3PP - I liked the look and idea behind it, rebirth through fire (and of course throwing fireballs which is always fun.
I did have an alchemist build I was looking at, too.
"WoW" flavor wasn't what I was going for, more just pointing out the kind of druid that archetype reminded me of.
Nature's Fang could work, but it's a weird one - potential to gain lots of combat abilities, and no wildshape, but that Save DC is pretty nice even if its only against one target at a time.
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I'd like to throw in a caster Druid - one where I dont really care about wildshape - closest think I can find is Wildfire Druid, sort of give that WoW Druid of the Flame feel..
If you're looking for a caster focused druid, check out the Sylph Sky Druid from the Advanced Race Guide. You don't give up that much, and you get flying abilities. So you don't have to wildshape to fly above the battlefield, casting from a distance while avoiding melee.
For my Sky Druid, I took the Cloud Gazer feat and Weather domain, so I can cast Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud as domain spells, then see through them. This lets me hide in my cloud and fire spells at enemies who can't see me to fire back. Just have to be careful not to use that strategy in close quarters, because the cloud could also limit your own party.
Druid - What would you be looking to focus on as a Druid who doesn't want pets or wildshape? I mean, I'd consider summons to be pretty similar to other pets like animal companions, but maybe you wouldn't. I've seen an archetype called Kraken Caller which gets a bunch of tentacles and some Dirty Trick bonuses.
Bard - The Sound Striker should give you a pretty solid backup option for times when you're having trouble beating the foe's AC or DR. You wouldn't have to be a Dirge Bard to demoralize groups of enemies and then sicken each of them with an arrow from a Cruel bow, but it might help. Buff the allies, debuff the enemies, dominate the campaign (or with your not quite ready for prime time party maybe just help them muddle through)
Inquisitor - If you don't want a pet then Travel domain probably isn't a bad choice. There are a ton of domains out there though. The subdomains for Glory have pretty decent powers, for example.
12.5%
The Inquisitor's early options in melee are limited, largely to wack the baddie with a stick, judgments could prop that up, as could swapping one point of Con for 1 point of Str (even swap in point build)
Devilkiller -
Druid, a caster battlefield control type, largely in the end, a wizard with a free spellbook. I'm OK with having to deal with Summonings, you really can't get away without SOME measure of that as a druid, and big hunks of meat dont hurt. You also dont have to feel bad about sending them in to die.
The players arn't bad, the only one known for making passable, consistent builds is the bloodrager
Rashagar
Thundercaller does look fun, Sound Striker looks a little more mechanically effective, but looking at the FAQ on Sound Striker, it seems to have been dialed back noticably.
Sound Striker went through a long period of FAQing around and being essentially unplayable one way or another, but it has been stable since the latest FAQ on the Ultimate Magic page. You get a pretty decent ranged touch attack capability which bypasses SR and most resistances, and that seems pretty nice to me.
Thundercaller was kind of controversial last time I checked since people couldn't decide if you are limited to one Thunder Call per round or could add a second at 7th level with a Move action and a third at 13th level with a Swift action. I think the once a round version is more balanced, but opinions on balance always vary and often seem completely polar.
I see your thoughts Devil - Thunder Call actually doesn't seem to
have an action cost associated with it at all.
I agree that Sound striker is pretty solid, just that the FAQ really cut back its power.
Been looking at Skald too - which could combo with the Bloodrager nicely.
Skald actually might not combine with the Bloodrager as well as you'd hope. AFAIK Barbarians and Bloodragers can either accept the Skald's Rage/Bloodrage Powers or use their own, not combine both. Considering that the Bloodrager can already give himself +4 Str he'd probably benefit more from a Bard with Inspire Courage. A Fighter would benefit more, almost turning into a Barbarian with Weapon Training. On the other hand, Spell Kenning is a pretty cool ability which has gotten the party in one of the games I play in out of a few jams.
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Skald actually might not combine with the Bloodrager as well as you'd hope. AFAIK Barbarians and Bloodragers can either accept the Skald's Rage/Bloodrage Powers or use their own, not combine both.
Actually...this sorta true and sorta not. If they just accept the Raging song, they get their own stat bonuses but not powers...but if the Rage in their own right, they get all their own stuff plus whatever powers the Raging Song gives. The stat-modifiers obviously don't stack, but nothing prevents a Bloodrager gaining pounce from a Skald while raging.
A Bard's still likely a better choice, but this seemed worth noting.
Yeah, can't "combine" both, but it can improve the Bloodrager's raging time - and if he feels the need to use his tricks, he just needs to activate his own rage, could save him a few rounds across the day.
DM has a list of the 8 concepts I gave him (without actual builds), and I'm just waiting on the cleric to pitch his build at this point.
It seems clear that you don't get both Str bonuses, just the higher one. I've heard that a Barbarian accepting Raging Song can't use both sets of Rage Powers at the same time either though, even if he burns rounds of his own Rage. If you have any rulings which show that a Barbarian/Bloodrager could use his or her own Rage/Bloodrage Powers while also getting those a Skald grants with Inspired Rage I'd be very happy to see that.
Seriously, I think it would be great if Skald combined well with Barbarians and particularly with the Viking archetype Fighter. Getting more concurrent Rage Powers would make Skald+Barbarian (or Viking) a good combo even if a Bard might offer higher overall attack and damage bonuses.
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It seems clear that you don't get both Str bonuses, just the higher one. I've heard that a Barbarian accepting Raging Song can't use both sets of Rage Powers at the same time either though, even if he burns rounds of his own Rage. If you have any rulings which show that a Barbarian/Bloodrager could use his or her own Rage/Bloodrage Powers while also getting those a Skald grants with Inspired Rage I'd be very happy to see that.
Seriously, I think it would be great if Skald combined well with Barbarians and particularly with the Viking archetype Fighter. Getting more concurrent Rage Powers would make Skald+Barbarian (or Viking) a good combo even if a Bard might offer higher overall attack and damage bonuses.
Sadly, you're probably be right. See here.
My basis for what I said was not having read the FAQ recently and actually reading Raging Song (which neither says nor implies anything like that...clearly the stat mods wouldn't stack, but Rage Powers and the like would if going by the actual text).
Yeah, I probably should have linked to the FAQ myself.
To be clearer, no, the rage's don't stack, BUT...
Bloodragers do not gain rage powers.
Skalds do and can hand them out along with the rage.
A bloodrager under a skald's Inspired Rage, gets to use the Skald's rage powers and his own (superior) rage bonuses, and is not fatigued at the end.
The drawback being that the bloodrager can't activate any of his bloodline powers or use his spells.
For levels 1-3 this is meaningless, its all win for the bloodrager.
Once the bloodrager gets spells, if he wants to use a spell while under Inspired Rage, all he has to do is activate his Bloodrage (choosing to drop the Inspired Rage).
This lets the Bloodrager get the best of both worlds, and save some of his rounds of Bloodrage each combat.
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To be clearer, no, the rage's don't stack, BUT...
Bloodragers do not gain rage powers.
Primalist Bloodragers do. And if it is not PFS rules there is 0 reason NOT to take primalist much like in the old days there was no reason to not take qinggong monk. It is a strict upgrade that you can pick and choose your abilities.
Rule 0 in effect - no combining archetypes, and he's said he's not taking Primalist.
That and the bloodrager player is inclined to avoid PFS restricted material.
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Rule 0 in effect - no combining archetypes.
That and the bloodrager player is inclined to avoid PFS restricted material.
Rule 0- I didn't see another Archetype and Primal can stack with any other archetype. Also your Rule 0 was not listed in your original post.
And the bloodrager player has some serious self hang ups then. Cause there is a lot of stuff PFS Bans. Many of which are terrible bans for a house game. But if he wants to limit himself further than he actually needs to be then that is on him. Poor guy he is missing out on a lot of the game. Especially being able to Craft or play a Vivisectionist Alchemist.
I think a regular Bloodrager would still miss out on his "Bloodline Powers" while accepting Inspired Rage. Maybe that's not a big deal. I'd just hate to see somebody go for what seems like a cool combo and find out it doesn't work since that kind of happened with a Skald and Barbarian in a game I play in.
If you give the potentially ineffective Monk some helpful Rage Powers maybe it will help him be more relevant. If he like grappling at all then Raging Grappler could be pretty great since it allows you to render a foe prone when you maintain a grapple. At least in our games we allow that power to work even on flying creatures since while they're immune to being tripped they might reasonably not be immune to being held down.
As the DM has shortened my list to the Inquisitor and Skald, the Skald is now to me the best call even with the concerns about Inspired Rage.
I know, no bloodline powers, I indicated that above.
That's why I only expect it to save a couple of rounds a day at best.
The bloodrager will be fine, this just give him flexibility.
Shoring up mister "I take up a 5' square" monk will be advantageous.
DM preferred the Skald or the Inquisitor - of the two, I like the Skald better - How does this build (and build plan) look? Am I missing something?
Male Half-Orc Fated Champion Skald
Strength 18 (+4)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 7 (-2)
Charisma 14 (+2)
Traits
Fate's Favored: Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.
Debating Second Trait - Reactionary, Finding your Kin, or Community Minded are high on the list.
Build Plan:
1 Scald's Vigor
2
3 Power Attack + Celestial Totem Lesser
4
5 Furious Focus
6 Elemental Rage Lesser
7 Reckless Rage
8
9 Discordant Voice + Elemental Rage
10
11 Greater's Skald Vigor
12 Elemental Rage Greater
Half-Orc
+2 to strength (already included)
Darkvision (see 60 feet in pitch-dark)
Shaman's Apprentice: Endurance
Sacred Tattoo: +1 luck bonus on all saving throws.
City-Raised: proficient with whips and longswords, +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (local) checks.
Multiple castings of Greater Create Demiplane, and gold to make in permanent.